Nonsense, it’s always fun to do cross-referencing and show when they’ve taken someone out of context.And the ability to grab a bunch of online ECF quotes out of context and right click, cut and paste at high speed is another tool that makes people think they’re on the level of Augustine or Erasmus or Aquinas in here at times LOL
Amen! Brother Wolf and Brother Halleck.And the ability to grab a bunch of online ECF quotes out of context and right click, cut and paste at high speed is another tool that makes people think they’re on the level of Augustine or Erasmus or Aquinas in here at times LOL
Wise words, gurney.In fairness to Catholicism, however, seeing some hypocrisy in your friends is not a valid reason to bail on the Church. There are hypocrites like this everywhere. I work with Protestants who are on their third marriages already and who sleep around, lie through their teeth, and are gossip hounds with no integrity who’ll sell you out in a second.
I grew up with lots of hypocritical protestants and catholics. You have to base your decisions on the theology, moral teachings, and faith of the religion, not all of its adherents. Every denomination and every non-Christian religion has its saints, sinners and morons.
Do you ever read of any great man in history whether it’s Augustine of Hippo or Justin Martyr or Francis or heck, C.S. Lewis, ever converting because of seeing bad examples? You have to go for the beliefs and the timeless truths, theological doctrines, etc.
Adolf Hitler was technically Catholic, Stalin was technically Orthodox, Osama Bin Ladin Muslim, etc. and yet I’m not going to judge those faiths by those characters!
My post wasn’t designed to say there aren’t unreasonable arguments against Catholicism, but, again, this is something you can’t ignore, and to point fingers to the other side is like a five year old saying, “Jimmy has a doggie too so I want a doggie too!” The fact is, whether we know it or not, people watch dialogues between two sides, and they’ll notice when one side either doesn’t present any arguments that are useful or aren’t even attempting to defend themselves, and there are people who left Catholicism over that.
We are definitely coming from different places, though I’m no fan of moral relativism either. I’m saying there’s no escape from nastiness. Not in any religion. It has to be dealt with wherever you go.
You are right distracted I do not have any idea what you have been through. But what my point is, and still is, you cannot blame God for mistakes that Humans do. Priest’s are human, and unfortunately some Priest’s do fall from grace also. Judas was living proof of that.
What I see you saying is alot of Catholic’s did not defend their faith or defend it well enough. Speaking for myself I am in my 40s. When we were attacked for our faith we were taught to never argue over faith and just turn the other cheek. Now I do believe that we should have been told to be more aggressive in defending our faith. But then again that probally would have failed also.
Well if she is not repentant for the sin of murdering children, than confession wouldn’t be valid. You have to be truly sorrowful for what you have done to offend God. If she is not, the confession wouldn’t be valid. You might fool the priest and maybe yourself, but you will not fool God.
Mr. Wolf,
kpeople: I’m stepping off the soap box.
Mr. Wolf,
You are right about people watching dialogues between both sides. The way we present and defend our faith has far reaching effects.
I’ve learned many things and changed many of my views through study and CAF discussions. I’ve been challenged to reading/study, etc. Catholics make a great case for many things, such as infant Baptism, the Real Presence, the Sacraments, etc.
Yet, when it comes to discussions regarding the “primacy” of Peter and what that means; I have had to pull back, because anyone who disagrees with the Catholic view is usually “pounded”; and the issues that concern me most are lost in all the arguments.
Protestants are blasted, being reminded of how recent Protestantism is and the lack of respect for the tradition of ECF’s. A valid point in many respects. Yet the Orthodox disagree on the issue of Peter and the Papacy also; and they are drawing from historical arguments and calling upon tradition. So, it isn’t just Protestants who disagree with Catholics.
I’ve seen this on many threads. I finally decided, my time is better spent reading and studying the issue of Peter from different view points. I can get a wider view of history and tradition, without being insulted along the way.
I respect Catholicism and my Catholic friends, here. It’s just that sometimes the steamroller approach can cause people to back away. Yet, no one has the corner on the “steamroller approach.” Sadly, many Protestants hit the forums with guns blazing, determined to show Catholics the “error of their ways”–Sadly, many crash and burn within a few days; and are banned for failure to abide by charity guidelines. It is definitely their loss, because many misconceptions about Catholicism are cleared up on the forums.
I’m not excluding myself from any of this. I’ve had to apologize more than once for less than charitable comments, and I may have to again in the future. We all get “steamed” sometimes; and forget people do notice our behavior.
Anna
To all of this - I completely agree.I can honestly agree with every shread of this post, Anna. Absolutely. The apologetics from some people in CAF have done more to make me want to run from Catholicism than toward it. Most of the self-described “hardcore” or “industrial strength” or “fanatical” or “no ifs, ands, or buts” Catholics in here have seriously given me pause about Catholicism. The only solace I take is that their extreme fundamentalist views are not necessarily the majority and I don’t have to please them to be a Catholic. But honestly I agree with you a great deal that the tone and tenor of the papacy/infallibility threads are just knock-down, drag-out nasty at times. I’m also discouraged when I hear, “the reason you (not necessarily me but other posters) left the Church is pure PRIDE!” or they say, “obviously you’re not well-catechized or informed or you wouldn’t have left!” I have heard the term “cafeteria Catholic” enough times to make my head spin. It’s become way too cliche in here! I have also heard people say to other posters “obviously you haven’t cultivated the interior spiritual life!” as if anyone can know the inner spirituality of another?
I think a lot of the arguments are not compelling and people who are too much into full-on apologetics mode are not willing to understand WHY the other side might feel the way they do. They get caught up in “I see the light, why can’t you?!”
At you’re right, Anna; I’ve heard a heck of a lot of anti-Catholic nonsense as well, most of whom usually get banned pretty quickly. I’ve been on other forums and boy there are some nasty anti-Catholics out there! I’ve heard Anglicans say “Catholics are all bloody well brainwashed” and it just makes me sick!
Despite these weaknesses and the hardcores, CAF I believe is the BEST online forum there is, period. I really like most of the people, the format, the options, the size, and the vast majority of folks in here are VERY intelligent, good theologians, good debators, and nice folks in general, yourself definitely included!
