Poll: majority of Catholics who attend Mass weekly support same-sex marriage, women's ordination [CWN]

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The reason it’s not a thing today is precisely because the seminaries and seminarian screening were reformed to prevent it. If one looks at the cases of priestly sex abuse of children, one will find that many of the cases come from precisely those seminaries and those seminary class years where such problems were prevalent.

That seems like a stretch to me. When the vast majority of cases of abuse essentially consist of pederasty, it would seem that sexual preference is indicated. I have seen it argued that the abusers in question simply had more access to boys, but that’s also a stretch. They had access to both genders, and chose boys.
It is true that hebephiles (which is different than pederasty, which is a subset of ephebophilia, which is a much different issue) and pedophiles have gender preferences. However, there is no link between sexual orientation and gender preference of pre-pubescent (usually defined as 3 to 10, pedophilia) or barely pubescent (usually defined as 11-14, hebephilia) children.

And that makes sense. I can’t tell you why kids are targeted by gender. But what I can tell you is that my lesbian orientation, while disordered, attracts me to grown women. I get no arousal out of seeing a woman with no secondary sexual characteristics, let alone a child. So how could sexual orientation have anything to do with children under 14, most of whom don’t have full secondary sexual characteristics either?
 
That’s not homosexual. It’s called hebephilia, and hebephilic gender preference has nothing to do with one’s personal sexual orientation. …Again, hebephilia has nothing to do with homosexuality. Same with pedophilia.
Not true, at least what I have read does not support this. While pedophile molesters of younger children often do not have a gender preference, the older the victim group, the more likely the pedophile has a gender preference. Almost all molesters of adolescents have a gender preference. I can look up some of this stuff if I need.

One thing is hard to deny. Since seminaries stop admitting those struggling with homosexuality, priestly sexual abuse has dropped. As much as I would like to see this ban lifted for the sake of the individuals involved, I would bet a month’s salary that child sexual abuse will rise.

In society today, the push to let all adult sexual practices be normalized will increase child sexual abuse. That is the nature of disordered desires. So while the media and everyone will love to blame the Catholic Church, everyone who pushes for homosexual normalization is partly responsible. The same can be said for pornography, living together and any number of practices that would have been shocking 100 years ago.
 
As shown in the John Jay report most of the victims were not prepubescent. The complete original report can be found here as a pdf file. Note particularly the graph on page 16 of the pdf file showing the incidents by date of occurrence. (The graph on pg 17 will show that the reporting dates were years or decades later than the dates of occurrence.) And the bar chart on pg 19 gives a breakdown of the age of victims.
 
As shown in the John Jay report most of the victims were not prepubescent. The complete original report can be found as a pdf file. Note particularly the graph on page 16 of the pdf file showing the incidents by date of occurrence. (The graph on pg 17 will show that the reporting dates were years or decades later than the dates of occurrence.) And the bar chart on pg 19 gives a breakdown of the age of victims.

11-14 is not prepubescent. Prepubescent = pedophilia. 11-14 = hebephilia.
 
Exactly, most of the cases were not pre-pubescent.
Yes. But 11-14 is not post-pubescent either. Ephebophilia (15-19) is where you start having overlap with sexual orientation, with the full development of secondary sexual characteristics. You don’t have those in pubescent children.
 
Indeed. I know someone who is in charge of that process in a seminary. In confidential examination, candidates are required to be frank about their sexuality, and questions are designed to identify those who (a) have not integrated their sexuality healthfully within their concept of self, and/or, (b) provide deceptive or ambiguous answers, and/or (c) failed to resolve any internal ambiguity about their sexuality, and/or (d) are not inclined toward discipline when it comes to sexual acting out.

Naturally, a particularly randy heterosexual who seems immature in this department (incapable of self-control) would also be inappropriate.

The measurement, as it has been explained to me, is the level of attachment to sexual interest and pursuit, as well as the relationship between personal identity and sexuality.

Second, any prejudice toward one’s own sex is directly in conflict with the nature of celibacy, which has as its goal universal and “disinterested” charity. Even someone who is chaste but has an orientation of consistent preference would be unsuitable, as an all-male residential environment would intensify such “exclusive” tendencies. The priesthood is not a club for either overt attraction or covert attraction (replacing quasi-erotic attraction for the physical variety).
Someone in another forum (I will call Mr. UK) a while back and I had an honest discussion on homosexuality. He was very nice and gracious, asked if I was gay or was struggling with same sex attraction myself. I suppose when one speaks or writes against homosexuality or gay ‘marriage,’ one can be or get accused of harboring yet denying homosexual feelings. I replied that a married woman (to one man) like me all these years with two grown sons could be a ‘secret’ lesbian, but no, I said, I am not one or have ever struggled with sexuality. However, the issue struck close to home with a family member having this heavy cross, so I have compassion to those so afflicted. It is not compassion that affirms it as a neutral or good thing. Or to be celebrated!

Mr. UK later on admitted to being a homosexual himself, and as a young man did not know how to live with it. He entered the seminary, and guess what, that is where he met his first boyfriend and had his first homosexual relationship. They were “in love” and both left the seminary and carried on. As stories of most who surrender to the weakness go, he went through a series of and promiscuous homosexual affairs. He is now middle aged, unbelieving but grateful that he had not contracted AIDS / HIV.

I imagine there were homosexual seminary applicants who succeeded in putting their best face and efforts to get in, and even go the length of formation thru ordination, even rising to position of high rank in the Church. And the Church is ever hopeful of redemption and rehabilitation. You just know how such candidate profile for the priesthood, with enough of them in the hierarchy, could turn into a systemic problem for the church. Spiritual and moral rot undermining the authority of Holy Mother Church, that her enemies inside and outside are all too glad to see.

The former pope valiantly worked to get rid of the problem. The current one, who had need to defend himself as a Son of the Church, needs our prayers in battling the problem of gay priests. It is not just simple judgmentalism that the media and secular society including Catholic posters with a liberal slant are magnifying.
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Well, I’m not going to respond to everything you are throwing at me in that rant-esqe post. I don’t see what the Reformation has anything to do with what I said. 🤷

I do not see the gay marriage debate as a “religious” or “Catholic” issue. The Vatican can teach and approve what it wants like it always has, and churches should be FREE to define marriage as a union only between a man and a woman.

It becomes problematic when traditionalists try to deny others the legal protections under the state that they claim for their own. Period. It really is that simple. You don’t have to agree with homosexuality. You don’t have to like it, but don’t try to deny equal protections under the state to others based on personal religious convictions.
I’m not sure I understand why you think that a citizen with a reliougious view point should not try to have his point of view heard and understood in public sphere. If something is morally unjust in someones eyes they should always stand up against it regardless of there point of view. I wonder how you will feel when first cousins or father & daughter want to have these same equal rights to be married. These couples are already starting to make there intentions known. Of course men who love boys have been trying to leagalize there behaviour for many years now. Why shouldn’t they have their way also.

Peace to you oh princess, 👍
 
I’ve been through several (well, not for formation, but many psych exams for various reasons). Every single time, the exam has come back with an “unable to tell” result on my psyche, and definitely no “lesbian” result [note, I don’t wish to cause scandal; I’m a celibate lesbian].
No scandal, we are all called to live a chaste life no matter what state of life we find ourselves.

I struggle with attractions which are disorderred every bit as much as same sex attractions. I have to stay faithfull to one woman even though I am attracted to all of them!!!😃

See, we do have something in common, we both desire what we cannot have and continue to live a chaste life.😦
 
Yes. But 11-14 is not post-pubescent either. Ephebophilia (15-19) is where you start having overlap with sexual orientation, with the full development of secondary sexual characteristics. You don’t have those in pubescent children.
Can you provide a link to something credible that states that there is no sexual orientation for those who suffer with attraction to 11-14 year olds?

Btw…there is also overlap in the 11-14 and 15-19 age ranges. It does depend on the development of the minor, and that varies greatly.
 
Continue (start if you have not yet) praying for those who dissent against the Church or are improperly catechized. Beyond that, who cares?
Thank you for this reminder. As I was reading through this thread, I became more and more discouraged. And that’s not the correct thing to do. The correct thing to do is to pray for our brothers and sisters who don’t know or don’t accept the Church’s teachings. We are in the business of saving souls, and we can pray and ask God to have mercy and enlighten us, including our dissenting and ignorant brethren (both Catholics and non-Catholics). We can and we will make a difference through our prayers. 👍
 
I do not see the gay marriage debate as a “religious” or “Catholic” issue.
Good. Because it’s not. It’s a universally applicable issue, because there are not several varieties of “marriages,” but one ordered kind of union, versus explicitly rejected (by God) other kinds of unions, for all, not just for Catholics, Christians, or believers.
The Vatican can teach and approve what it wants like it always has,
You don’t seem to understand that the Holy See has legitimate authority to require certain moral positions from you, from me, from all self-identified Catholics, regarding our support, or lack thereof, of secular regulations, inasmuch as those regulations pertain to absolute Divine Law. Despite modern popularity and modern propaganda, the intrinsic evil of homosexual behavior (and adultery, and other transgressions against marriage) has not “changed with the times,” or is affected by opinion polls of any kind or from any source.
It becomes problematic when traditionalists try to deny others the legal protections under the state that they claim for their own. Period. It really is that simple.
“Traditionalists” are not “trying to deny” any basic right. Rather, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, combined with several Popes and our current Pope, have defined the issue without ambiguity. They cannot be narrowly labeled as “traditionalists,” whatever your poor understanding of that word seems to be. In any case, the “legal protections” to which you refer are as illegitimate as the “right” to an abortion, not to mention an unrestricted “right” to that.

The practicing Catholic is bound, by virtue of baptism and confirmation, to conform her opinion to the Magisterial teachings of the Church. It really is that simple.
 
While I’ll agree that many of these Catholics are poorly educated, I also believe that just as many know full well what the Church teaches and they couldn’t care less. They thumb their nose at the Church and her teachings while at the same time walk up and receive Holy Communion without batting an eye! When asked about Confession they say…Huh?

Peace to you,
Mark
Yes I should have clarified that, there are many who don’t give a damn what the Church teaches, they know better than a 2000 year old Church…
 
Regarding whether the abuse of children by priests is predominantly a homosexual problem or not: I would like to mention that there are countries in Europe where homosexuality is extremely rare among the general population, and homosexual priests are practically unheard-of. I spent years in such countries and I had personally known two priests who had affairs with grown women, and left the priesthood in order to marry these women. Also, I have heard stories about several other priests who had mistresses, again these mistresses were adult women. However, I have never heard of a single case of a priest having affair with or molesting children, either boys or girls, in those same areas I’m talking about. Granted, I never did a scientifically accurate survey, these are just my personal experiences. However my personal experiences indicate that there is no problem (or, at least, much less of a problem) of child abuse by priests in an area where homosexuality is less abundant, and where the priests do not struggle with homosexual tendencies.
 
While I’ll agree that many of these Catholics are poorly educated, I also believe that just as many know full well what the Church teaches and they couldn’t care less. They thumb their nose at the Church and her teachings while at the same time walk up and receive Holy Communion without batting an eye! When asked about Confession they say…Huh?
Yes I should have clarified that, there are many who don’t give a damn what the Church teaches, they know better than a 2000 year old Church…
And another thing. The short time I’ve been here, I’ve seen many, many threads with subjects such as this. And usually someone will write a post with horribly misinformed and flawed beliefs and opinions about the Faith. And as it happens, several very well educated, and very well informed Catholics will politely point out the truths of the Faith to correct them…only to get snubbed or called rude, or judgemental and other nasty things. And this absolutely irks me to no end. So… to all of you who have experienced this harsh treatment, and you know who you are…***God Bless You! *** Your patience and your efforts are commendable! 🙂
Yes I have been recently called judgemental, and a few others as-well, I can’t answer for others but it’s actually an act of charity to clarify what the Church teaches.

The spiritual works of mercy are:

To instruct the ignorant;
To counsel the doubtful;
To admonish sinners;
To bear wrongs patiently;
To forgive offences willingly;
To comfort the afflicted;
To pray for the living and the dead.
 
For someone who claims to be anti-judgment you sure engage in a lot of judgmentalism! Is it OK only when you do it, or is it judgment only when the actions being disapproved of are actions that you apparently agree with (like homosexual lifestyles, contraception etc)?
I picked up on this as-well, but was just too nice to say it, now I have. :o
 
Well, it may simply be a matter of rejection of Church teachings. The phenomenon of Catholics who attend Mass and consider themselves Catholic but do not accept what the Church teaches has always been somewhat puzzling.
They are Catholics. Perhaps they’re not Catholics in good standing but they are Catholics.
I suspect rather, that they have just been more thoroughly catechized into the secular orthodoxy by the media, politicians, public authorities, and opinion makers. So they have been catechized, but wrongly.
But of course, there are those who are well educated in both catechism and civil & human rights. And there is a chasm between the two spheres in the issue of homosexuality. These people aren’t blind fools – assuming they are is overly simplistic.
In accepting same sex marriage, they not only reject Church teaching; they reject the common teaching of human civilizations since the beginning of history. People figured out very early on that it took a man and woman to make a marriage–I guess, as early as Adam and Eve.
This is an argument from tradition. Those Catholics discussed in this poll are likely going to need more to go on to change their views.
The ‘Catholic Come Home’ advertising seems to be having an effect of getting more and more fallen Catholics back into weekly services.👍
I applaud Catholics Come Home in many ways, though I think it’s important to recognize its limitations. For those who are willing to accept the Church’s teachings on women’s ordination and same-sex marriage, for example, it’s a gift. But there are those who can’t change their views and then CCH can’t help.
 
Can you provide a link to something credible that states that there is no sexual orientation for those who suffer with attraction to 11-14 year olds?

Btw…there is also overlap in the 11-14 and 15-19 age ranges. It does depend on the development of the minor, and that varies greatly.
Unfortunately not, as until the 2000s, society just automatically assumed sexual orientation was linked, as homosexuality had such a huge stigma (remember people believing in mass hysteria that gay teachers in public schools would lead to so-called “gay conversions” of their children?). You’ll find that scientific papers written at the time use “heterosexual” and “homosexual” to define gender preference of youth in pedophilic and hebephilic cases. However, psych classes now teach to be wary of doing so, as there is no established link between sexual orientation and pedophilia/hebephilia. However, there is an established link between neurotoxicity as a child and pedophilia/hebephilia, suggesting that sexual orientation has a significantly smaller role, if any, in the act:

link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11194-007-9049-0
 
Unfortunately not, as until the 2000s, society just automatically assumed sexual orientation was linked, as homosexuality had such a huge stigma (remember people believing in mass hysteria that gay teachers in public schools would lead to so-called “gay conversions” of their children?). You’ll find that scientific papers written at the time use “heterosexual” and “homosexual” to define gender preference of youth in pedophilic and hebephilic cases. However, psych classes now teach to be wary of doing so, as there is no established link between sexual orientation and pedophilia/hebephilia. However, there is an established link between neurotoxicity as a child and pedophilia/hebephilia, suggesting that sexual orientation has a significantly smaller role, if any, in the act:

link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11194-007-9049-0
Okay. “Be wary” is not anywhere close to the certitude you presented that there is no link. Perhaps, you should be equally wary of saying there isn’t a link. 🤷

Again, there is overlap in the age ranges, as children develop at different rates.
 
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