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Poll saying white Catholics embrace same-sex marriage than other Americans
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edwest2
Guest
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Yes, it is easier to influence a handful of judges and politicians. What some are attempting is tribalism - a fragmentation of society where truth is determined by various unsound means, like a compliant media that has been leading us to ever increasing lows of hedonism.
From Pope Benedict:
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"If we cannot have common values, common truths, sufficient communication on the essentials of human life–how to live how to respond to the great challenges of human life–then true society becomes impossible."How true this is. Where there is no communication, no culture, no shared experience, there is no society; because there is no people. There remains only a vast and foreboding, unforgiving sea of individuals ready to crash upon each other and the world with the slightest wind. Without a common basis, we have not the vaulted pluralism we’re taught to embrace, but Babel, in all the confusion and madness of a society with no binding forces. Already we are seeing the tensions of this fragmentation breaking out across cultures.
Without common values and truths, such as in the socieites we find ourselves in, we find the fabric of society torn like Joseph’s cloak, by a great many tribes which would like to lay claim to the title of favored. Leftists, conservatives, anarchists, nihilists, secularists, objectivists, the shallow, the entertainers, the entertained, all vying for control against each other. Tribalism can indeed spawn differentiation, but without some common ground, and in the face of increasing jargon not only in the academies but in the cultures; we shall be left with madness. In the end this tribalism can only result in the decline of all their claims, and the alienation of one from the other. Babel is the happenstance when society tries to become God.
"Pope Benedict XVI goes on to say:
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"We are moving toward a dictatorship of relativism which does not recognize anything as for certain and which has as its highest goal one’s own ego and one’s own desires. The church must defend itself against threats such as “radical individualism” and “vague religious mysticism”. [emphasis added]Pope Benedict does not play language games, he is unconcerned with the postmodernist’s corner on untruth. Neither should we be. Notice how he calls relativism a “dictatorship” instead of agreeing that no values and no Truth are the way forward for society. What many fail to recognize is that imposing nihilism and arbitrary tribalism is a form of dictatorship. Where untruth or half truth is the common order, there can only be oppression. Political correctness has asked us to abandon our value-laden language and to pick up a new language proper to the secular forum. However, this secular newspeak is value-laden against the traditional claims of the Western world and as such, is a poison rather than a new order. We can and should bring our own conviction laden language to the table, if we’re going to have any sort of real dialogue at all. Misinformation and restrained convictions are not the proper building blocks for a democracy.
Peace,
Ed
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Micko
Guest
First: A man can’t marry a man. Marriage must involve a woman it is the very definition of the word.
Second: Are legally bound Male partners monogamous? If so, that would be a good thing. At least they are not risking the spread of disease.
Third: I’m tired of this whole political movement. Marriage to me involves a man, a woman, and God. If the state wants to recognize something different I can’t stop them. The politicians will marry pigs if it will fill their coffers.
Second: Are legally bound Male partners monogamous? If so, that would be a good thing. At least they are not risking the spread of disease.
Third: I’m tired of this whole political movement. Marriage to me involves a man, a woman, and God. If the state wants to recognize something different I can’t stop them. The politicians will marry pigs if it will fill their coffers.
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kozlosap
Guest
Yes, I do have a fat head, but it’s not because I think I’m superior to the Church. History allows us to study what happens in both small and global organizations when they fail to take societal changes to heart and try to remain true to their missions without reading the proverbial tea leaves. The theological underpinnings of the HRCC have remained the same for two thousand years with the faithful partaking of the Eucharist and believing in the Real Presence. To my small mind, that is the crux of being a Catholic. I think there must be many other Catholics out there that, like myself, love the Church, but just cannot blindly follow some of the social dogma. Despite what others think, even though I don’t agree with all social dogma, I’m still a practicing Catholic who follows the rules even when I don’t believe they have anything to do with the Real world.
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edwest2
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Societal changes? The outside world - not the Church or State - does not decide when you have sex or under what circumstances. Only you do.Yes, I do have a fat head, but it’s not because I think I’m superior to the Church. History allows us to study what happens in both small and global organizations when they fail to take societal changes to heart and try to remain true to their missions without reading the proverbial tea leaves. The theological underpinnings of the HRCC have remained the same for two thousand years with the faithful partaking of the Eucharist and believing in the Real Presence. To my small mind, that is the crux of being a Catholic. I think there must be many other Catholics out there that, like myself, love the Church, but just cannot blindly follow some of the social dogma. Despite what others think, even though I don’t agree with all social dogma, I’m still a practicing Catholic who follows the rules even when I don’t believe they have anything to do with the Real world.
I was there in the late 1960s when the Hippies, anarchists and similar decided ‘down with authority.’ “Don’t trust anyone over 30!” Mom, dad, Church. They began to practice “alternative lifestyles.” As a Hippie friend told me in the 1970s: “I don’t need no piece uh paper tuh live with my old lady.” There’s nothing blind about Church teaching. It’s meant for the good of not just Catholics but all men of good will.
Starting with that time period, a mostly functional social order was upended - by men. Men who thought - because they were told - You got Freedom!!! Freedom from what?
Their tribe decided what was right and wrong. Sex was a big part of that and it’s just gotten worse because as the decades passed, more sex on TV, in the movies and everywhere else. Then, the internet…
I’m very attracted to the opposite sex and I’m sure I’d get a lot of positive support from other guys for doing the wrong thing sexually. I sympathize. The real world has been taught that ‘if you can’t get enough sex, don’t deprive yourself.’ It took 40 years to get to this point.
Peace,
Ed
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Rob_Arnzen
Guest
The crux of being a Catholic is found in the following words of Christ:
John 14:15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments."
Luke 10:16 “He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.”
Matthew 28:19-20 "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.”
Matthew 16:19 "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
The Church is Christ’s Body on earth. It is infallible in matters of faith and morals. It is not just another human organization. You are obliged under pain of sin if you are a Catholic to be bound by its dogmas, to listen to its counsel, and to observe in obedience its disciplines.
“Societal changes”, then, have literally nothing to do with following its teachings since it is the Church that teaches, not society.
Perhaps you think that the matters over which you’ve expressed some disagreement with the Church are simply disciplines or prudential judgments, like whether or not to use Latin in the Mass, or whether in any particular country at any particular time the death penalty is appropriately available. Those are things about which Catholics can disagree and remain faithful. These matters are not.
That same sex relations are immoral, that abortion is intrinsically immoral, that artificial birth control is never licit in a marriage are all dogmatic unchanging teachings. They are unchanging teachings whether we like them or not, whether you can find the occasional priest who advocates a “don’t ask don’t tell” approach to them, or whether we completely understand why they are teachings. If we don’t, our obligation is to put the time and energy into understanding why they are.
Dogma is dogma, social or not. Unless you have some theological bona fides which put you in a position to comprehend the Church’s basis for concluding something dogmatically, how else would you follow it except “blindly”? Can you understand the hypostatic union, the nature of the Trinity, and the basis for the Church terming the change which takes place in the consecration “transubstantiaton”? If not, you’re already following the Church’s dogma blindly but knowing that it teaches with authority given to it by Christ Himself.
It is important to remember that publicly contesting the Church’s teaching can be sinful itself. It is one thing to say “I sure would like to understand why the Church uses the term ‘transubstantiation’ and not ‘consubstantion’” and it’s another to say “The Church’s teaching on abortion is hooey, what does an old man in the Vatican know about things like that?”
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987mk
Guest
This sounds like a very healthy way to live ones life and practice a religion.I’m still a practicing Catholic who follows the rules even when I don’t believe they have anything to do with the Real world.
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estesbob
Guest
I agree. There are teachings of the Church I have trouble with also. I accept them and follow them regardless and strive to understand why I am in error.This sounds like a very healthy way to live ones life and practice a religion.
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edwest2
Guest
I think the Church is very good at explaining things. The problem has been a constant struggle between truth as defined by men and truth as defined by revealed wisdom, which comes from God.
biblehub.com/proverbs/4-7.htm
It’s not easy, sometimes. Temptation is constantly out there and in our heads.
Peace,
Ed
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estesbob
Guest
When I have a problem with family teaching I know the Church is right-the problem is on my end .
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ltravis
Guest
I would say a theological underpinning is Jesus’ nuptial relationship to the church, which is most fully expressed in the Eucharist. However, it is also expressed in how we give ourselves to each other in marriage. I don’t know how one can believe and accept one and not also believe and accept the other.Yes, I do have a fat head, but it’s not because I think I’m superior to the Church. History allows us to study what happens in both small and global organizations when they fail to take societal changes to heart and try to remain true to their missions without reading the proverbial tea leaves. The theological underpinnings of the HRCC have remained the same for two thousand years with the faithful partaking of the Eucharist and believing in the Real Presence. To my small mind, that is the crux of being a Catholic. I think there must be many other Catholics out there that, like myself, love the Church, but just cannot blindly follow some of the social dogma. Despite what others think, even though I don’t agree with all social dogma, I’m still a practicing Catholic who follows the rules even when I don’t believe they have anything to do with the Real world.
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Tigg
Guest
Which takes honesty and humility.
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drhoy
Guest
I completely agree, and I also have used this same analogy in past discussions.
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NoMondays
Guest
Homosexuality-is-like-alcoholism was the standard explanation among my evangelical students back when I was teaching, and to them the comparison was like an epiphany: it seemed to capture the perfect combination of condemnation and compassion. It was mortifying and depressing to listen to their spirited defenses of it. I wish I had had something like this to give them:
womenintheology.org/2011/12/15/homosexuality-is-not-like-alcoholism/
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drhoy
Guest
Hmm, I don’t seem to find that article as convincing as you do. The concept of the argument is that we all have proclivities towards some particular sin (lying, cheating, masturbation, etc.) to which we must avoid indulging in. I do agree that one action can be moderated while the other cannot.
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estesbob
Guest
I don’t think the author made a very good case for their opinion.
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