POLL: Which is more likely: Women Deacons OR Women Cardinals?

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I’m not necessarily in favour of women Cardinals… but I will say this: in the very early Church the laity of Rome WERE involved in papal elections. Thus we can’t say it’s without precedent to have lay electors.

If women Cardinals were appointed, I would prefer that they be esteemed abbesses and other women religious.
 
No, I’m aware of what part he said. He said “yep” to another person’s question, which was “are these threads meant to rile people up?”

Regardless, it doesn’t matter. I didn’t create this thread with this purpose in mind, which both of the above parties suggested – one by his question, the other by his answer in the affirmative.
 
I wish we would get rid of Cardinals altogether and of course women cannot partake of holy orders, so No to the diaconate thing.
 
I said both are highly unlikely. I don’t think we’ll see Holy Orders offered to women (it seems impossible). Likewise, I don’t see the point of non-ordained deaconesses. Women already do everything any lay person can do, so giving some women a title even though they do the same things as other lay men and women seems superfluous. The minor orders became defunct for the same reasons–regular lay people or higher clergy just did those things.

As for Cardinals, again, women already advise the Pope and serve in the Church’s bureaucracy–they don’t have to be Cardinals to do that. I’m also not so sure it is possible to make them Cardinals, at least how the office has been traditionally defined. Cardinals are by their nature clergy (in the narrow sense of the word). Even “lay cardinals” in the past were not actually laymen, strictly speaking. They always received the tonsure and were in the minor orders (the minor orders, while sacramental, had a special connection to the major orders and were therefore reserve to men–even the “instituted ministries” which have less of a connection, are still reserved to men).

The cardinalate is not just the electoral college of the papacy or advisors to the Pope or even just an honorary title. The title of Cardinal grew out of their clerical status. It was originally a title given to all clergy permanently attached to a church/diocese, or “incardinated” as we say today. Then it began to be reserved to those in prominent Sees, then to the chief clergy there, and finally to those of the Roman See only. Just as when various bishops had the title of Pope, the Bishop of Rome was still the head, the status of the Roman clergy was always special. As the clergy of the chief particular Church, they were given special honor–which is why even in the very nascent Church during an interregnum, difficult questions were submitted still to the Roman priests (since the Roman Church was the head of all the other Churches).

To this day Cardinals are clergy of Rome. When clergy outside Rome are made Cardinals, those clergy are given parishes in Rome. While the College of Cardinals as an electorate is only 1000 years old, their office as Roman clergy goes back to the beginning.

Seeing the cardinalate as merely bureaucracy or even the electors of the Pope, misses the point. Lay people in the Roman bureaucracy (always subject to the bishop, in this case, the Pope), is fine. Lay people electors of the Pope is also theologically fine–the election of a Pope can happen however the previous supreme authority legislates (it is very common for a sitting Pope to slightly modify the election law). In the past, lay emperors were given a vote or veto power or even the only say; theoretically other lay people could be given a vote, or the sitting Pope could choose his successor, etc.

But bestowing the cardinalate on such lay bureaucrats or electors would deviate from what a cardinal truly is, which is clergy. Lay emperors and whatnot who participated in papal elections, were not made Cardinals, for example. However, such times are generally seen as less than ideal, so I don’t think we’ll go back to lay electors again any time soon.
 
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Thank you so much for this comprehensive piece. I did not know that about the history of the office of Cardinals.
 
I said “both highly unlikely” because I don’t like the way the question is worded.
  1. as the OP mentioned, the ancient “Deaconess” was not ordinance, therefore if that role was brought back, they CANNOT be on the same level as the present day deacon. They would not be allowed to preach at mass nor to assist the same way the Deacon does.
  • The role of the deaconess was just to help with the baptism of naked women (which is how we used to baptize). So unless we return to baptizing in the nude, what would the deaconess do that lay women cannot currently do?
  1. All Cardinals, even back when lay men were appointed Cardinals, became clerics. So the lay man who was appointed a Cardinal would receive at least First Tonsure to be made part of the clerical state. They would also typically receive minor orders and an education with the goal of eventually becoming a priest/bishop. Not all of them would receive Holy Orders, but they were all made members of the clerical state.
  • women were never made members of the clerical state, and nuns/sisters & deaconesses are the closest thing a woman came to the clerical state.
Personally, I can see select non-cloistered Mother Superiors / Prioresses / Abbesses being appointed as Cardinals some time in the future. But if a truly lay woman become a Cardinal, then I think correct way to use the “Deaconess” is to solely use that for lay women (who are not nuns/sisters) to be made members of the clerical state and to simply grant all nuns/sisters clerical state status. Otherwise, I really do not see the purpose of the “deaconess.”

Finally, if lay women (I mean women who are not nuns/sisters, since all women are lay) are made Cardinals, I think it would be only fair to allow lay men too. Perhaps the BEST solution (if people really want to see female Cardinals) is to have 10 cardinals reserved for lay people - 5 male and 5 female. In my view, the lay members would be appointed as Cardinal-Deacons (and the females permanently as a new “Cardinal-Deaconess” rank).

To me, this is the only way women can ever become Cardinals and the only valid way to use the “Deaconess” today.

However, the only other issue would be this: if Lay people are allowed to become Cardinals, it would have to be limited to people who work for the Church or teach in Catholic schools/colleges/seminaries. It couldn’t be some random business, law, or political professional, and they would need a curia assignment as members of the Roman Curia.

God Bless
 
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You can’t base truth off of the zeitgeist of today. If that were the case, the Church should also ordain transgendered persons, allow abortions in all cases, and permit euthanasia.
Because all of these things are equivalent.
 
What about John Adams and George Washington? They were rebellious. Lech Walesa was rebellious. Fr. Maximilian Kolbe was rebellious.
I know that’s not what you’re arguing, but you should come up with better phrasing.
 
Having female alter servers isn’t a necessity either. There are lots of things that aren’t a necessity.
FYI - referencing female altar servers isn’t a good example because that was only allowed after years of dissent priests allowing altar girls, when it wasn’t allowed.
 
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They have to be ordained to be Pope, but you don’t have to be ordained to be a Cardinal, so its kind of confusing.
No idea if this is accurate or not (probably is), but anyway, if a Conclave were called, the Cardinals would convene (this is the usual now) and elect a Pope. The question would become, do they have the right as fully fledged Cardinals to partake in such an event, could they vote in this election, could they be elected? Would this prohibition to vote mean they are not fully equal in terms of status as Cardinals?
I’ve wondered this myself.

Over the past few decades we the people who are not present in the conclave have been increasingly aware of its discussions, intrigue, politics, lobbying, etc,. to the point that it seems less like an exercise of sacred devotions and Holy Spirit intercessions and more like a political party caucus.

I submit that women and men, regardless of whether they’re ordained, are capable of participating in the process.
 
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You are perfectly in your right to say neither option is likely, for whatever reason, EXCEPT out of principle.
I think you will find a great many debates about the Church are settled 'out of principle. ’

A long long time ago someone asked ethical questions of “what would you do if . . .?” and the answers were almost uniformly, ‘I would do A, B, or C because that’s what the Catechism says to do.’ Ehhhh…I’m not saying they wouldn’t, but if we all did what the Catechism told us . . .there’d be no point in asking the question.
 
I voted it either was highly unlikely. The Church is not authorized to ordain women to the priesthood so I am assuming ordained women deacons would be an impossibility. If the Church ordained women to the priesthood it would prove that the Church was not infallible which would open a very large can of worms. So what other infallible teachings should the Church change?
 
(1) Because, again, there have been women “deacons” in the church. .
Repeating this does not make it true.

There is no credible evidence of there ever having been a “female deacon” as opposed tp a deaconess.
As the OP says, this can be nuanced in whatever which way: They don’t have to be ordained.
To call an unordained person a “deacon” is to humpty-dumpty the language . . . If you want to use the greek word broadly to avoid clerical ordination and include deaconesses, you also would be including large portions of other service roles in the church, both laity and within religious orders.
(2) Cardinals are not inherently ordained.
Cardinals have been payment.

Cardinals are not a liturgical/clerical position in and of themselves. They are a church creation that could be abolished tomorrow; they are simply the way that the church has to select the next Bishop of Rome.

In practice, the persons named to that are either sitting archbishops or "displaced " (😜) bishops and archbishops with titular sees (i.e., suppressed diocese with no churches, clergy, or faithful) who are appointed to high roles in the Vatican. Some of those are clerical in nature (e.g., the Society for the Propagation of the Faith), while others could conceivably be filled by laity (Secretary of State, heads of banks, etc.). There would be no need to apply the “cardinal” label to such laity, and it would only cause confusion.

hawk
 
Could it be y’all are talking about two very different understandings of “get with the times.” Speaking past each other?

Obviously, there are things in the Church that cannot change with time.

And there are obviously things in the Church that can change with time.

Wasn’t this largely what Vatican II was about? To approach the Faith in a way that takes into account the modern era — or communications, society, technology, etc…

With regards to women, the approach the Church has had towards women has definitely “changed with the times” — as it should over 20 centuries.
That’s a very good question. One we need to re-ask ourselves every day.

To start, let the Council speak for itself. We need to set aside what we (yes, all of us) often “think” the Council was about and sincerely ask the question anew. To start with, and to more directly answer your question, I would suggest reading Gaudium et Spes http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_.../vat-ii_cons_19651207_gaudium-et-spes_en.html The pastoral constitution on the Church in the modern world (“gaudium et spes” means “joy and hope”)

Read the document carefully. Vatican II was not about “updating” the Church or making the Church more ‘like’ the modern world, but quite the opposite. It was about transforming the modern world to be more ‘like’ the Church. Meaning: to make the world conform to the Gospel Message itself.

We also need to understand that the question of “what non-essential changes can be made to the present-day Church in the context of today’s world?” is likewise answered by the Council. The answer to that (admittedly rather broad) question is in the Constitution on the Church. Lumen Gentium. (a Light to the Nations) http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_...s/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html
 
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