polygamy

[GraceDK]

Good points! By the way, let me state that I am not proposing that polygamy should be legalized. I AM proposing that Catholics who support legalizing “homosexual marriage” are hypocritical.

I agree.
Also, its important to know that there is One Catholic Church and this has one teaching. The authoritative teaching is, that homosexual marriage is an absurdity and a sin.
Those who do not believe that, are, per definition, people who do not believe in the teaching authority of the Bible nor the Church.
I dont think you can find a Catholic on this site that thinks sex between two men or two women is okay. However, you will find that we pity those who have homosexual inclinations because they have a heavy burden to bear where most of us are blessed to be straight.

 

[eichenb2]

Eichen, you know that I am a Catholic and as such I believe in the Triune God as revealed in the Bible and fully and finally in Christ. Christ is who God really is… also with what He has to tell man about man’s own identity and purpose.
From that perspective I have to say the words you might find “snobbish”. I read this on a post card today:
“The more Christian you become, the more you become a human being, but you never become more than a human being”. I believe that a person who lives and breathes in Christ is a person who lives most fully in the purpose that God has in mind for us. That person lives more in Reality than a person who does not know the God who created him, nor where he is headed.
That means that a Muslim woman who accepts to lay in one room and listen to her husband having intercourse with another woman, may not feel that this could be different, but I do believe it is objectively true that it is below her human dignity to have to share her husband, just like its below her husband’s dignity to have multiple wives. This is said from a Christian perspective.
You do not advocate relativism… neither do I. There are things that are wrong and things that are right. I believe that people who conform to sinful ways have in some way or the other been deceived about what the true purpose of life and religion is. It must be so.
If you believe that no one is “brainwashed”, as you choose to call it, then you must also believe there is no Truth.
As a religious person I believe that some people live more or less blind or seeing, according to the standards of the revelation I believe in.
I hope you understand this reply.

Salam

You can believe what you want and so can other people. Incidentally, I wonder if there are any stats on the number of married men in the US, who cheat on their wives. I wonder how many wives cheat on their husbands. I suspect that 60%+ of American men have cheated on their spouse, while I think less than 30% of women do this. I wonder what this says about the difference between men and woman and their propensity to infidelity?
By way, you did try to belittle and demean the Muslim woman in your example.

 

[eichenb2]

truthaboutdeception.com/cheating_spouse/public/cheating_wife.html

 

[eichenb2]

I agree.
Also, its important to know that there is One Catholic Church and this has one teaching. The authoritative teaching is, that homosexual marriage is an absurdity and a sin.
Those who do not believe that, are, per definition, people who do not believe in the teaching authority of the Bible nor the Church.
I dont think you can find a Catholic on this site that thinks sex between two men or two women is okay. However, you will find that we pity those who have homosexual inclinations because they have a heavy burden to bear where most of us are blessed to be straight.

You keep feeling sorry for them and they will politically take away your right to say their action is sinful.
Treating people as you you want to be treated is one thing, but not clearly telling them that they are engaged in (potentially) mortal sin is abhorrant. I once had a conversation with a Catholic woman, after morning mass, that, I think shows the slippery slope element of this approach. She told me that if I were to have a child who said they were “gay” (God forbid!) and I forbade them from bringing their “significant other” into my house, that I was being exceedingly cruel. There are loads of Catholics who consider themselves faithful and think the Church is wrong on homosexuality. I must admit that I feel the church will, eventually, condone “gay marriage”. They would, then, probably still defend the church teaching on faith and morals by indicating that it is infallible. My question then would be the same as now. How would you know if it was wrong???

 

[manualman]

So nothing is an inherent violation of human dignity, huh? It’s only a violation of human dignity if a person OBJECTS to it.

So the battered wife who refuses to press charges and insists that it isn’t her husband’s fault: she’s not be degraded since she doesn’t object?

Believe it or not, there were black slaves in the 1850’s who did not WANT to be freed and thus be responsible for providing for themselves. Should Lincoln have made an exception and allowed slavery for those consenting to it?

I submit to you that certain behaviors are inherently degrading to the basic dignity of humanity. If you don’t agree, I’m not even sure how you can tell right from wrong at all.

If you agree, then we don’t NEED to interview every polygamist woman on earth to decide on polygamy. We need merely reason about how normal humans would react to being a plural spouse.

 

[eichenb2]

So nothing is an inherent violation of human dignity, huh? It’s only a violation of human dignity if a person OBJECTS to it.

So the battered wife who refuses to press charges and insists that it isn’t her husband’s fault: she’s not be degraded since she doesn’t object?

Believe it or not, there were black slaves in the 1850’s who did not WANT to be freed and thus be responsible for providing for themselves. Should Lincoln have made an exception and allowed slavery for those consenting to it?

I submit to you that certain behaviors are inherently degrading to the basic dignity of humanity. If you don’t agree, I’m not even sure how you can tell right from wrong at all.

If you agree, then we don’t NEED to interview every polygamist woman on earth to decide on polygamy. We need merely reason about how normal humans would react to being a plural spouse.

You are free to believe that polygamy is degrading. Those who think otherwise are allowed to believe as they choose, as well. The is the result of the Church-State separation. I happen to believe that people are the same, essentially, as they have ever been. So, if polygamy was good 5000 years ago, it is Ok now. This does not mean it is preferable.

 

[manualman]

Do you also disagree with relatively recent changes to the law that allow the state to prosecute a husband who beats his wife, even if she refuses to press charges?

How is that any different? Aren’t you judging her by your own standards? If both husband and wife are OK with the situation, isn’t that just old fashioned morality intruding into government?

It isn’t a separation of church and state issue. US law forbids polygamy and it has been upheld against charges that it violates the Constitution. The basis of the law is not christian morality, but the reality of polygamy as degrading to the multiple spouses.

 

[eichenb2]

Do you also disagree with relatively recent changes to the law that allow the state to prosecute a husband who beats his wife, even if she refuses to press charges?

How is that any different? Aren’t you judging her by your own standards? If both husband and wife are OK with the situation, isn’t that just old fashioned morality intruding into government?

It isn’t a separation of church and state issue. US law forbids polygamy and it has been upheld against charges that it violates the Constitution. The basis of the law is not christian morality, but the reality of polygamy as degrading to the multiple spouses.

Again…you can believe as you like. But, trust me, polygamy will be challenged and allowed by the courts in the future. Whether we like it or not. This will be the result of Christian (and especially Catholics) being asleep at the wheel of self-governance. I find it bizarre that there are Catholics who have bleeding hearts for sodomites, suddenly become ferocious defenders of personal dignitas, when it comes to polygamy.

 

[apromisemade]

We need merely reason about how normal humans would react to being a plural spouse.

Normal

What does it mean to be normal anyway .

 

[atassina]

Polygamy is a great idea. I used to work in a polygamous society and all the young adults are moving away from it because it causes such problems.

 

[bugz2007]

Again…you can believe as you like. But, trust me, polygamy will be challenged and allowed by the courts in the future. Whether we like it or not. This will be the result of Christian (and especially Catholics) being asleep at the wheel of self-governance. I find it bizarre that there are Catholics who have bleeding hearts for sodomites, suddenly become ferocious defenders of personal dignitas, when it comes to polygamy.

If you want to make an argument that Catholics are hypocrites because they believe gay marriage should be allowed and polygamous marriages should not, perhaps you should be posing your comments to those Catholics who you know to support gay marriage. Many (most?) of the people commenting in this thread, I suspect, are opposed to BOTH.

As Catholics, we want to support individuals with SSA to live celibate lives as single men and women. This is a difficult cross to bear, and out of love we would like to help them do so. This kind of support is NOT the same as helping them to obtain marriages with people of the same gender, even if you’d like to portray our pity and Catholic charity in that way.

 

[EnchantedEve]

Polygamy is always and everywhere evil and sinful. It is by definition adultery which is against the natural and divine law.

God Bless

This is not correct, theologically speaking, see post here:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=5223521&posted=1

 

[Holly3278]

Because polygamy is a grave moral offense against marriage:

**2400 **Adultery, divorce, polygamy, and free union are grave offenses against the dignity of marriage.

 

[EnchantedEve]

Because polygamy is a grave moral offense against marriage:

Of course, just as a priest would be gravely immoral if he married in the priesthood. Polygamy may not be good, but it is certainly not “always and everywhere” sinful, which is what I am responding to. It is not in itself evil, but it tends toward evil and should be therefore avoided.

 

[swplan76]

I think the problem with polygamy from a Christian perspective is in the equality of men and women that comes through Christ. “In Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek, Slave nor Free, Male nor Female.” No racism, No classism, No sexism. Jesus came to bring about a new covenant in His blood. It moved from a law based, oppressive religion, to one that liberates. Its hard for us to wrap our minds around it because we are so inclined toward patriarchy. I would even say that Paul tends to be instinctively patriarchal, but battles with it through his letters. Paul writes his letters to churches being formed in patriarchal communities, to people who have only functioned in patriarchy - for them and for us, it is difficult to get beyond the oppression of patriarchy. Jesus does not favor men over women. Jesus was beyond patriarchy - He considered women to be valuable in a way that no other men seemed to - Jesus taught women and clearly in the early church, women were hungry to learn and through the teachings of Christ they were given a freedom they had never had before.

With this in mind, as far as Jesus is concerned, women and men are not far different from each other and may be different, but seem to be equal.

That said, If a man wants to have more than one wife, he must also accept a woman who wants to have more than one husband.

Personally, I’m not comfortable with that idea. I don’t want to share my wife with another man. I don’t think its just socially built into my thinking - I don’t think of that as appealing, the idea of sharing my wife as a sexual partner with another man… that just seems vile… buh!!

I personally think that God wants us to be monogamous. As we imitate Christ (who is loyal to his church - the only way to God) we should be loyal to only one spouse.

As far as what Jesus says about marriage, he only talks about monogamy, seemingly dismissing any need to discuss polygamy, as though it isn’t even an option.

 

[Tosk]

Of course, just as a priest would be gravely immoral if he married in the priesthood. Polygamy may not be good, but it is certainly not “always and everywhere” sinful, which is what I am responding to. It is not in itself evil, but it tends toward evil and should be therefore avoided.

JPII had some keen insight into that in Love and Responsibility. Only monogamy is fully compatible with christian marriage because any other form of marriage does not show the full respect that is due to a person. Polyandry and polygamy are offenses against marriage no matter the motive or situation in which they are practiced.

 

[EnchantedEve]

JPII had some keen insight into that in Love and Responsibility. Only monogamy is fully compatible with christian marriage because any other form of marriage does not show the full respect that is due to a person. Polyandry and polygamy are offenses against marriage no matter the motive or situation in which they are practiced.

You are in the ballpark here. As I noted there are many things monogamy provides to the Christian that polygamy frankly lacks. St. Thomas did note that in extraordinary circumstances the Church may permit it in order to fulfill the primary end of marriage, i.e. rearing and mulitplication of children. So it must not be always an offense if the Church may permit it.

 

[GraceDK]

You are in the ballpark here. As I noted there are many things monogamy provides to the Christian that polygamy frankly lacks. St. Thomas did note that in extraordinary circumstances the Church may permit it in order to fulfill the primary end of marriage, i.e. rearing and mulitplication of children. So it must not be always an offense if the Church may permit it.

Soo… EnchantedEve.
You think there is a way for me to get “special treatment”.
Lets say I write to the pope and say: “I have wish to have threee husbands instead of one, because I have a very high libido and would like to make babies now and until I reach 45 years old… this will mean I am going to need the financial support of at least 2-3 men for the many babies…”
You think I might get the dispensation?
I dont think so… I think that the Church would rightly see such a letter as a sign of utilitarianism, and ask me to repent. Also… some couples are infertile… this does not mean the church permits them to divorce or have another man or woman enter the picture.

 

[GraceDK]

I think the problem with polygamy from a Christian perspective is in the equality of men and women that comes through Christ. “In Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek, Slave nor Free, Male nor Female.” No racism, No classism, No sexism. Jesus came to bring about a new covenant in His blood. It moved from a law based, oppressive religion, to one that liberates. Its hard for us to wrap our minds around it because we are so inclined toward patriarchy. I would even say that Paul tends to be instinctively patriarchal, but battles with it through his letters. Paul writes his letters to churches being formed in patriarchal communities, to people who have only functioned in patriarchy - for them and for us, it is difficult to get beyond the oppression of patriarchy. Jesus does not favor men over women. Jesus was beyond patriarchy - He considered women to be valuable in a way that no other men seemed to - Jesus taught women and clearly in the early church, women were hungry to learn and through the teachings of Christ they were given a freedom they had never had before.

With this in mind, as far as Jesus is concerned, women and men are not far different from each other and may be different, but seem to be equal.

That said, If a man wants to have more than one wife, he must also accept a woman who wants to have more than one husband.

Personally, I’m not comfortable with that idea. I don’t want to share my wife with another man. I don’t think its just socially built into my thinking - I don’t think of that as appealing, the idea of sharing my wife as a sexual partner with another man… that just seems vile… buh!!

I personally think that God wants us to be monogamous. As we imitate Christ (who is loyal to his church - the only way to God) we should be loyal to only one spouse.

As far as what Jesus says about marriage, he only talks about monogamy, seemingly dismissing any need to discuss polygamy, as though it isn’t even an option.

Exactly.
It’s that simple.

 

[EnchantedEve]

Soo… EnchantedEve.
You think there is a way for me to get “special treatment”.
Lets say I write to the pope and say: “I have wish to have threee husbands instead of one, because I have a very high libido and would like to make babies now and until I reach 45 years old… this will mean I am going to need the financial support of at least 2-3 men for the many babies…”
You think I might get the dispensation?
I dont think so… I think that the Church would rightly see such a letter as a sign of utilitarianism, and ask me to repent. Also… some couples are infertile… this does not mean the church permits them to divorce or have another man or woman enter the picture.

Heh, heh I like that…

I pointed out in another post however, that St. Thomas stated that polyandry (marriage of one woman to many husbands) is never permissible and explains why. I have the link above.

That aside, the Church may posess powers it may never choose to excercise. In the case of Paraguay, for example, the overall dearth of men meant the population had been endangered and in this case the Church granted a dispensation due to the circumstances. This was unusual, and in this case, the primary end of marriage (rearing of children) was, to the bishops of Paraguay, endangered. So pastoral provision was made to a very exceptional case. It had to be a broadspread threat in order to merit this type of dispensation, however, and would not have been applied to individuals alone.

As noted earlier, this is similar to the discipline of priestly celibacy. Just as it is good for a priest to be celibate. so too is it good for there to be only one man and one wife.

By the way, I think you are correct, I do not think the Holy Father would find your case exceptional enough to dispense to ordinary form.