Polygenism/Monogenism

[Petergee]

From the Wikipedia article"
<<<<<5] Research on many genes finds different coalescence points from 2 million years ago to 60,000 years ago when different genes are considered, thus disproving the existence of more recent extreme bottlenecks (i.e., a single breeding pair).[3][6]>>>>

Doesn’t that reinforce sciences’ belief in polygenism?

Not at all. It merely rejects the claim of those who say that Adam and Eve lived only a few thousand years ago. I know of nothing in Catholic doctrine which would preclude the date of the Fall being hundreds of thousands or even millions of years B.C.

 

[Petergee]

But didn’t the male and female live thousands of years apart?

You are talking about the deduced “Most Recent Common Female Ancestor” and the “Most Recent Common Male Ancestor”. Though these are sometimes nicknamed “Mitochondrial Eve” and “Y chromosome Adam” they must not be confused with the actual Adam and Eve. All scientists and all Catholic theologians agree on that.

 

[Faith1960]

From the link I just posted: Science and Religion

<<<<<<<The Catholic Church has always taught that “no real disagreement can exist between the theologian and the scientist provided each keeps within his own limits. . . . If nevertheless there is a disagreement . . . it should be remembered that the sacred writers, or more truly ‘the Spirit of God who spoke through them, did not wish to teach men such truths (as the inner structure of visible objects) which do not help anyone to salvation’; and that, for this reason, rather than trying to provide a scientific exposition of nature, they sometimes describe and treat these matters either in a somewhat figurative language or as the common manner of speech those times required, and indeed still requires nowadays in everyday life, even amongst most learned people” (Leo XIII, Providentissimus Deus 18).

As the Catechism puts it, “Methodical research in all branches of knowledge, provided it is carried out in a truly scientific manner and does not override moral laws, can never conflict with the faith, because the things of the world and the things the of the faith derive from the same God. The humble and persevering investigator of the secrets of nature is being led, as it were, by the hand of God in spite of himself, for it is God, the conserver of all things, who made them what they are” (CCC 159). The Catholic Church has no fear of science or scientific discovery.>>>>>>>>>

There seems to be a real problem with what’s written above vs what most reputable scientists say.
So, what exactly is going to happen in the future concerning this? If/when science continues to show evidence for polygenism what will happen to the Churche’s teaching?

 

[Faith1960]

Not at all. It merely rejects the claim of those who say that Adam and Eve lived only a few thousand years ago. I know of nothing in Catholic doctrine which would preclude the date of the Fall being hundreds of thousands or even millions of years B.C.

How so? It says right here that it “disproves the existence of more recent extreme bottlenecks (i.e., a single breeding pair).”

 

[Faith1960]

The latest studies of the human genome reveal that all humans have a common ancestor from Africa. It’s also interesting to note that certain marker genes later split off into three branches from the Mesopotamia region. That holds up well when compared to Adam & Eve and the 3 sons of Noah who survived the flood. I don’t think the Bible is a science book, and the stories in Genesis don’t have to be literal, but they can harmonize with scientific discovery.

A secular documentary “The Human family Tree” examines these discoveries
topdocumentaryfilms.com/human-family-tree/

Can you please link me to information on this? All I’ve been able to find is information for Mitochondrial Eve and Y Chromosome Adam, who lived thousands of years apart.

 

[grannymh]

To keep the thread within bounds, please post the quote from the Catechism that requires a belief in monogenism. Let’s see what is actually taught.

Let’s start with the first three chapters of Genesis. This ancient story is about a person named God and two people named Adam and Eve.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, paragraph 390 refers to our first parents based on the Council of Trent and subsequent teachings of Pius XII and Paul VI. While CCC 396 can be taken generally, CCC 397-398 is definite that there was one man who sinned. CCC 402 affirms the one man Adam. This goes back to St. Paul who also affirmed that there was one man in Romans 5: 12-21. At this point St.Thomas Aquinas gets in the act with DeMalo 4,1 which not only states one man but also says that the whole human race is in Adam “as one body of one man.” This reference along with the Council of Trent is in CCC 404. In connection with CCC 404, CCC 405 addresses Adam’s descendants. The Protoevangelum ("first Gospel) referred to in Genesis as being addresses to two people is in CCC 410. It is suggested to check the cross-references for CCC 410 which are in the margin.

Going back to CCC 389, there is this telling sentence.
“The Church, which has the mind of Christ, (1 Corinthians 2:16) knows very well that we cannot tamper with the revelation of original sin without undermining the mystery of Christ.”

By the way, as I check the footnotes, St.Paul’s teaching on one Adam (Romans 5-12-21) is also found in CCC 385 & 388 & 397. However, to get a better perspective, I suggest reading CCC 396 - 409. Actually to understand Adam’s human nature which is our fallen human nature, read CCC 355 - 421.

 

[Faith1960]

Let’s start with the first three chapters of Genesis. This ancient story is about a person named God and two people named Adam and Eve.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, paragraph 390 refers to our first parents based on the Council of Trent and subsequent teachings of Pius XII and Paul VI. While CCC 396 can be taken generally, CCC 397-398 is definite that there was one man who sinned. CCC 402 affirms the one man Adam. This goes back to St. Paul who also affirmed that there was one man in Romans 5: 12-21. At this point St.Thomas Aquinas gets in the act with DeMalo 4,1 which not only states one man but also says that the whole human race is in Adam “as one body of one man.” This reference along with the Council of Trent is in CCC 404. In connection with CCC 404, CCC 405 addresses Adam’s descendants. The Protoevangelum ("first Gospel) referred to in Genesis as being addresses to two people is in CCC 410. It is suggested to check the cross-references for CCC 410 which are in the margin.

Going back to CCC 389, there is this telling sentence.
“The Church, which has the mind of Christ, (1 Corinthians 2:16) knows very well that we cannot tamper with the revelation of original sin without undermining the mystery of Christ.”

By the way, as I check the footnotes, St.Paul’s teaching on one Adam (Romans 5-12-21) is also found in CCC 385 & 388 & 397. However, to get a better perspective, I suggest reading CCC 396 - 409. Actually to understand Adam’s human nature which is our fallen human nature, read CCC 355 - 421.

I knew you’d have this information up your sleeve.

 

[edwest2]

We’ve learned so much about science in the years following Pope Pius XIII and Humani Generis. It’s pretty well established that humans interbred with Neanderthals and the Denisovans, and scientists believe there was never a human bottleneck of two people (which, had there been a human bottleneck of two people, would indicate we may have descended from one human pair, Adam and Eve.)

1. Doesn’t what we’ve learned from science contradict Human Generis and Genesis? How can we reconcile us being required to believe in monogenism in light of the above?
2. If it’s ever scientifically established that humans did originate from a population of people rather than one couple, is the Church open to changing her views and allowing our belief in polygenism?

1. No.
2. No.

Peace,
Ed

 

[Faith1960]

1. No.
2. No.

Peace,
Ed

If you’re correct, see this is even more problematic than I thought.

 

[edwest2]

If you’re correct, see this is even more problematic than I thought.

I don’t understand your problem. We have two original individual parents who committed an Original Sin, which led to Jesus being born, establishing a new Covenant and dying as a sacrifice so that sins may be forgiven. That Original Sin is passed on to all of us as our own.

I really like science but God is outside of its ability to understand, as well as the soul and Original Sin, and perhaps sin in general.

Peace,
Ed

 

[Julia_Mae]

I knew you’d have this information up your sleeve.

She didn’t post the information. It says in the Catechism, that we are to believe in two first parents as the progenitors of the humanity. I asked for a quote not a treatise. Granny knows exactly what I’m referring to, she has that paragraph on speed-dial. But she chose to obfuscate instead.

 

[Faith1960]

I don’t understand your problem. We have two original individual parents who committed an Original Sin, which led to Jesus being born, establishing a new Covenant and dying as a sacrifice so that sins may be forgiven. That Original Sin is passed on to all of us as our own.

I really like science but God is outside of its ability to understand, as well as the soul and Original Sin, and perhaps sin in general.

Peace,
Ed

Then am I correct in assuming that you have no link to credible information by respected scientists who believe in monogenism?

 

[Julia_Mae]

Let’s start with the first three chapters of Genesis. This ancient story is about a person named God and two people named Adam and Eve.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, paragraph 390 refers to our first parents based on the Council of Trent and subsequent teachings of Pius XII and Paul VI. While CCC 396 can be taken generally, CCC 397-398 is definite that there was one man who sinned. CCC 402 affirms the one man Adam. This goes back to St. Paul who also affirmed that there was one man in Romans 5: 12-21. At this point St.Thomas Aquinas gets in the act with DeMalo 4,1 which not only states one man but also says that the whole human race is in Adam “as one body of one man.” This reference along with the Council of Trent is in CCC 404. In connection with CCC 404, CCC 405 addresses Adam’s descendants. The Protoevangelum ("first Gospel) referred to in Genesis as being addresses to two people is in CCC 410. It is suggested to check the cross-references for CCC 410 which are in the margin.

Going back to CCC 389, there is this telling sentence.
“The Church, which has the mind of Christ, (1 Corinthians 2:16) knows very well that we cannot tamper with the revelation of original sin without undermining the mystery of Christ.”

By the way, as I check the footnotes, St.Paul’s teaching on one Adam (Romans 5-12-21) is also found in CCC 385 & 388 & 397. However, to get a better perspective, I suggest reading CCC 396 - 409. Actually to understand Adam’s human nature which is our fallen human nature, read CCC 355 - 421.

As I just told OP you are obfuscating because you are avoiding the pertinent paragraph that says we are not to hold a view other than that humanity springs from two first parents. Just post the quote. Like you have in every other thread on this topic.

 

[Faith1960]

As I just told OP you are obfuscating because you are avoiding the pertinent paragraph that says we are not to hold a view other than that humanity springs from two first parents. Just post the quote. Like you have in every other thread on this topic.

Pope Pius said otherwise.

 

[Petergee]

How so? It says right here that it “disproves the existence of more recent extreme bottlenecks (i.e., a single breeding pair).”

Yes, the key words being “more recent”. It doesn’t say that it disproves the existence of a LESS recent single breeding pair.

 

[Faith1960]

Yes, the key words being “more recent”. It doesn’t say that it disproves the existence of a LESS recent single breeding pair.

Ok. Then can you point me in the direction of information that says there likely was a LESS recent breeding pair? Anything that would scientifically support this view?

 

[Julia_Mae]

Pope Pius said otherwise.

Popes opine. Here, watch this:

youtube.com/watch?v=UVsbVAVSssc&feature=player_embedded

and look at this thread:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=685478

 

[fnr]

Quotation directly from the Catechism:

"*How to read the account of the fall

390 The account of the fall in Genesis 3 uses figurative language, but affirms a primeval event, a deed that took place at the beginning of the history of man.264 Revelation gives us the certainty of faith that the whole of human history is marked by the original fault freely committed by our first parents.*"

There is no need to treat the historicity of Adam and Eve living within the last 10,000 years as an “in or out” element of faith, as would be suggested by the genealogy in Luke. FYI, this is Luke’s geneaology:
Adam
Seth
Enosh
Kenan
Mahalalel
Jared
Enoch
Methuselah
Lamech
Noah
Shem
Arphaxad
Kenan
Shelah
Eber
Peleg
Reu
Serug
Nahor
Terah
Abraham
Isaac
Jacob
Judah
Perez
Hezron
Ram
Amminadab
Nahshon
Salmon
Boaz
Obed
Jesse
David
Nathan
Mattatha
Menna
Melea
Eliakim
Jonam
Joseph
Judah
Simeon
Levi
Matthat
Jorim
Eliezer
Joshua
Er
Elmadam
Cosam
Addi
Melchi
Neri
Shealtiel
Zerubbabel
Rhesa
Joanan
Joda
Josech
Semein
Mattathias
Mahath
Naggai
Hesli
Nahum
Amos
Mattathias
Joseph
Jannai
Melchi
Levi
Matthat
Heli
*Mary & Joseph
Jesus

 

[Faith1960]

Popes opine. Here, watch this:

His orders to believe in monogenism, forbidding a belief if polygenism isn’t required of Catholics?

 

[Julia_Mae]

Quotation directly from the Catechism:

"*How to read the account of the fall

390 The account of the fall in Genesis 3 uses figurative language*, but affirms a primeval event, a deed that took place at the beginning of the history of man.264 Revelation gives us the certainty of faith that the whole of human history is marked by the original fault freely committed by our first parents."

Thanks. Not the quote I’m looking for. I’m looking for wherever the Church says we must believe the entirety of humanity sprang from two single individuals who were a reproducing couple.