Polygenism/Monogenism

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Small comment. The Bible does not say anything about 20,000 - 25,000 human genes which are at the heart of scientific research. Thus, if there is a problem with human genetics, that problem remains in the scientific realm of the material/physical world.

The Catholic Church, because it deals with the spiritual world of eternal joy, not only sees 20,000 - 25,000 working genes, it seems human nature in total.
I’m really confused, Granny. I know you are on the side of us having two common ancestors. Do you believe that they were just two from thousands of other homo-sapiens whom God ensouled or do you believe that despite all the scientice pointing elsewhere, there was a human bottleneck of just two people?
 
Neandertals are us.
Buffalo, you are never without links to pretty much any topic we discuss. Do YOU have reliable scientific information that supports a human bottleneck of just two people ?
 
This is a useful read from 2004’s Stewardship and Creation:
bringyou.to/apologetics/p80.htm
  1. With respect to the immediate creation of the human soul, Catholic theology affirms that particular actions of God bring about effects that transcend the capacity of created causes acting according to their natures. The appeal to divine causality to account for genuinely causal as distinct from merely explanatory gaps does not insert divine agency to fill in the “gaps” in human scientific understanding (thus giving rise to the so-called "God of the gaps”). The structures of the world can be seen as open to non-disruptive divine action in directly causing events in the world. Catholic theology affirms that that the emergence of the first members of the human species (whether as individuals or in populations) represents an event that is not susceptible of a purely natural explanation and which can appropriately be attributed to divine intervention. Acting indirectly through causal chains operating from the beginning of cosmic history, God prepared the way for what Pope John Paul II has called “an ontological leap…the moment of transition to the spiritual.” While science can study these causal chains, it falls to theology to locate this account of the special creation of the human soul within the overarching plan of the triune God to share the communion of trinitarian life with human persons who are created out of nothing in the image and likeness of God, and who, in his name and according to his plan, exercise a creative stewardship and sovereignty over the physical universe.
 
Having said that, we can agree some things. Science requires that all humans are descended from a single couple. Think about Mitochondrial Eve’s parents. Every living human is descended from M-Eve, so we are obviously all descended from her parents. The same is true for Y-Chromosome Adam’s parents. Actually it is also true for many other couples. Finding a couple from whom all living humans are descended is not difficult, see Most Recent Common Ancestor.
I didn’t read anything that said humans descended from a single couple and M-Eve a Y-Adam lived many thousands of years apart.
 
This is a useful read from 2004’s Stewardship and Creation:
bringyou.to/apologetics/p80.htm
  1. With respect to the immediate creation of the human soul, Catholic theology affirms that particular actions of God bring about effects that transcend the capacity of created causes acting according to their natures. The appeal to divine causality to account for genuinely causal as distinct from merely explanatory gaps does not insert divine agency to fill in the “gaps” in human scientific understanding (thus giving rise to the so-called "God of the gaps”). The structures of the world can be seen as open to non-disruptive divine action in directly causing events in the world. Catholic theology affirms that that the emergence of the first members of the human species (whether as individuals or in populations) represents an event that is not susceptible of a purely natural explanation and which can appropriately be attributed to divine intervention. Acting indirectly through causal chains operating from the beginning of cosmic history, God prepared the way for what Pope John Paul II has called “an ontological leap…the moment of transition to the spiritual.” While science can study these causal chains, it falls to theology to locate this account of the special creation of the human soul within the overarching plan of the triune God to share the communion of trinitarian life with human persons who are created out of nothing in the image and likeness of God, and who, in his name and according to his plan, exercise a creative stewardship and sovereignty over the physical universe.
Wow. So, in English it’s saying…what? That we may have risen from a single couple OR a population of humans but the first human was whom God infused a soul into, that human we call Adam?
 
You won’t find that quote. It’s an idol.
What one does find is centuries of evidence for human nature which is composed of a decomposing anatomy and a non-material rational soul. This evidence is found in Catholic teachings since the beginning of human history.
One truth cannot contradict another truth.
That is in the category of urban myths. Please refer to post 56 above.
It is a true statement with as much certainty as we can make about anything in nature that the earth is 4.8 billion years old
The age of the earth is not a Catholic dcotrine. The existence of a real Adam and Eve is a Catholic doctrine.
and that the oldest fossils span a range from 3.3-3.5 billion years old.
The younger of those fossils are stromatolites, which are photosynthesizing bacteria that required numerous evolutionary steps to exist. The older fossil is from sulfur-metabolizing bacteria similar to those found at undersea vents. The cellular machinery of these fossils is identical to that in our cells. In particular, they include ribosomes, the DNA for which is conserved in all life on earth.
Current excavations of fossil finds have been able to retrieve some portions of DNA. However, DNA, animal or human, does not present evidence of our spiritual soul.
Genesis 2 says – figuratively – that God created Adam from the dust and breathed life into him. That’s as true a statement as the parable of the Prodigal Son.
Pardon me, I think that is some sort of logical fallacy or maybe it is a
non sequitur. Help somebody.:eek:

When it comes to the first three chapters of Genesis we are dealing with Divine Revelation which has been stated in Catholic doctrines. To put the Prodigal Son and the first human Adam in the same category, you would have to name the Catholic doctrine flowing from this parable.
If there are theological reasons that some people feel make it impossible for them to embrace the consensus view of evolutionary biology, geology, astronomy, and physics,
This would be more understandable if you named the consensus view. Otherwise, listing a number of science disciplines has been used as one of the means of intimidating Catholics who honor human nature and its origin as taught by Catholicism.
I’ll suggest that they are holding to unnecessary elements of faith.
Please be specific. What unnecessary elements of faith (Catholic) are in the first three chapters of Genesis or which flow from the basic truths in those chapters?
If those elements of faith are used to deny science, it seems to me that those beliefs are idols created by people.
Pardon me. The Catholic Church does not deny science. It considers science as a gift from God.
God does not require us to suspend reason to hold faith.
Examples, please.
Science is not a way to tempt The Lord.
I realize I am not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but where did that idea originate?
It is a way to discover truth about his creation.
Science discovers truth when it is conducted properly. Please refer to post 56 above.
We have souls. How God put souls into us, I cannot say.
Catholicism offers this explanation. God immediately and individually creates our spiritual soul at conception. The unity of spiritual and material at conception is so profound that one considers the soul to be the “form” of the body. It is because of this spiritual soul that the body made of matter becomes a living human person, like you and me.
(Source: CCC 362-366)
But a soul cannot be measured. It is therefore outside the scope of scientific investigation.
Correct. 👍
When it comes down to it, all our physical, emotional, and intellectual capacities are best explainable by materialist science.
Not exactly. Our rational intellectual capacity, different from sentience, is due to our spiritual soul – which as you just pointed out is outside the scope of scientific investigation.
To deny that is to deny God’s reality (thou shalt not covet thy God’s means of creation).
Catholicism accepts the reality of God which is why it can accept the reality of Adam and Eve.
Parapalegic people can now control cybernetic limbs with electrodes implanted into their brains. If that’s not a sign of the material nature of our consciousness, I don’t know what is.
I have an interesting research paper which examined the consequences of using electrodes as a mapping device during awake brain surgery. But so far, I am unaware of implanting electrodes. Do you have a citation available? Or is this from a media report?

I can see why the example of a paraplegic person being able to move cybernetic limbs (a new term for me) would be a sign of the wonders of our material brain or a sign of material consciousness. However, that does not deny the presence of our spiritual soul. Recall that you said that the spiritual soul is outside the scope of scientific investigation.
 
Wow. So, in English it’s saying…what? That we may have risen from a single couple OR a population of humans but the first human was whom God infused a soul into, that human we call Adam?
In other words, the scientific explanation of human origins is not the same as the theology of human origins. “Science can study these causal chains” means that properly science is capable of elucidating the processes that led to the origin of the human species. “…it falls to theology to locate this account of the special creation of the human soul” means that the International Theological Commission, speaking on behalf of the Catholic Magesterium, is not going to dictate what science is supposed to conclude, but instead encourage the use the information gleaned by science in informing our understanding of human origins.

The fact that the Commission went so far as to spell out “(whether as individuals or in populations)” means that the Magesterium isn’t afraid of a figurative reading of Genesis 1-3. Which it already had said in the Catechism.
 
The fact that the Commission went so far as to spell out “(whether as individuals or in populations)” means that the Magesterium isn’t afraid of a figurative reading of Genesis 1-3. Which it already had said in the Catechism.
I agree, but doesn’t that then contradict Pope Pius’s comments about polygenism?
Did Pope Pius speak ex cathedra when he said that?!
 
The fact that the Commission went so far as to spell out “(whether as individuals or in populations)” means that the Magesterium isn’t afraid of a figurative reading of Genesis 1-3. Which it already had said in the Catechism.
Yes. So…then is the Magesterium acknowledging that humans may not have come from two people but instead, came from a population of people?
 
Do you think there are humans around without original sin?
I think humans came from a more populated group than just two people. Feel free to disprove me, I’m very confused here, trying to make sense of something that doesn’t make sense in light of advances in the sciences. I just don’t want to have to grasp at straws to make it sensible.
 
I think humans came from a more populated group than just two people. Feel free to disprove me, I’m very confused here, trying to make sense of something that doesn’t make sense in light of advances in the sciences. I just don’t want to have to grasp at straws to make it sensible.
Then one has to believe there are humans around without original sin. The implications of this are:


  1. *] Our first parents, before the Fall, were endowed with sanctifying grace. (De fide.)
    *] The donum rectitudinis or integritatis in the narrower sense, i.e., the freedom from irregular desire. (Sent. fidei proxima.)
    *] The donum immortalitatis, i.e.,bodily immortality. (De fide.)
    *] The donum impassibilitatis, i.e., the freedom from suffering. (Sent. communis.)
    *] The donum scientiae, i.e., a knowledge of natural and supernatural truths infused by God. (Sent. communis.)

    There are immortals among us or they died out. :hmmm:
 
Then one has to believe there are humans around without original sin. The implications of this are:


  1. *] Our first parents, before the Fall, were endowed with sanctifying grace. (De fide.)
    *] The donum rectitudinis or integritatis in the narrower sense, i.e., the freedom from irregular desire. (Sent. fidei proxima.)
    *] The donum immortalitatis, i.e.,bodily immortality. (De fide.)
    *] The donum impassibilitatis, i.e., the freedom from suffering. (Sent. communis.)
    *] The donum scientiae, i.e., a knowledge of natural and supernatural truths infused by God. (Sent. communis.)

    There are immortals among us or they died out. :hmmm:

  1. God can put a soul into everyone at the time of conception. I can’t speak about original sin, all I can say is what we know thus far, from science. Like I said earlier, I’m not interested in grasping at straws to force this into making sense.

    vox-nova.com/2011/02/11/moving-forward-with-polygenism/
 
God can put a soul into everyone at the time. I can’t speak about oriinal sin all I can say is what we know thus far, about science. Like I said earlier, I’m not interested in grasping at straws to force this into making sense.

vox-nova.com/2011/02/11/moving-forward-with-polygenism/
Everything living has a soul for it is the animating principle. Properly speaking humans since Adam and Eve have an immortal rational soul.

If you finished with Sanford’s videos he shows and science agrees humans are mutating (devolving) more every generation. Running this backwards we eventually get to a human with no mutations.
 
The way Rossum explained it, it makes some sense, but if you believe that at one time the popuation consisted of two people (people in the way science identifies people, not faith) which seems to fly in the face of scientific fact, then that doesn’t make sense to me.
Briefly, Rossum demonstrated that the word “human” is defined differently by science and by Catholicism. And that is correct; however, I need to go back to Rossum’s post and check for some Catholic clarifications.

What we need to do is to seriously consider if we should accept the scientific definition of human which does not include the reality of our spiritual soul.

Science views a human as a decomposing body and that is it. The benefits of science are that it seeks good health, etc., for our anatomy and also seeks good health for our material brain. Natural science is a gift from God.

Catholicism views a human as an unique unification of a material anatomy and a rational spiritual soul which is the means for our entering heaven

For me, choosing the Creator over His creation is no-brainer. God is not limited by the material/physical workings of our universe.😃
 
Speaking about the word proper. I am still seeing the urban myth “truth cannot contradict truth.” People who understand both a little of science and a little of Catholic doctrines realize that the real statement about truth and contradiction goes something like this. * Truth occurs when science is conducted properly and Catholic doctrines are properly understood. *
From Vatican II (GS 36):

Therefore if methodical investigation within every branch of learning is carried out in a genuinely scientific manner and in accord with moral norms, it never truly conflicts with faith, for earthly matters and the concerns of faith derive from the same God. (6) Indeed whoever labors to penetrate the secrets of reality with a humble and steady mind, even though he is unaware of the fact, is nevertheless being led by the hand of God, who holds all things in existence, and gives them their identity. Consequently, we cannot but deplore certain habits of mind, which are sometimes found too among Christians, which do not sufficiently attend to the rightful independence of science and which, from the arguments and controversies they spark, lead many minds to conclude that faith and science are mutually opposed.(7)
 
No they are not. However, I go by Catholic teaching regarding the necessity of a spiritual soul.
That is what science is converging to. Species are defined as being able to breed. If we interbred with Neandertals and Denisovans than they are us. Isolated humans are still humans.
 
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