J
Joe_5859
Guest
Fair enough.
- Status
E
ellzeena
Guest
NO! Do not put your eyes on men, they (we) all sin! Keep your eyes on Jesus, at all times. Look at all the scandals in the Protestant denominations (totally ignored by the media which absolutely lives and breathes to defame Roman Catholicism!) Those who put their faith and trust in the men who were exposed as great sinners (as are we all) felt despair and many perhaps lost their faith. It is GOD Whom we adore and Him alone.
S
seekerz
Guest
I agree, except with the comments about the media. I remember thinking about the extensive coverage that JPII’s last days got - in my memory, there was no precedent for it - and realizing that ANYTHING, good or bad, that happens in the RCC, will always garner lots of media attention. I think we have to be fair - no scandal involving well known people or organizations goes un-covered. Protesting against media coverage just makes the Church look defensive and adds to the narrative of a tendency to ‘cover-up’ stuff. We’re big boys and girls, let the chips fall where they may - our faith can take it.
L
LisaA
Guest
L
Lisa1967
Guest
I agree with you. I was going to a church where the pastor killed himself. That really shook my faith, until a Christian friend told me basically what you said. I once heard another pastor say that only 1 of 3 pastors finishes well.
S
sw85
Guest
I understand this impulse, but think of it from a longer-term perspective (the way the Vatican prefers to see things). The dissenters’ time is largely done. They had their chance, they made a total mess of things, and everyone (who matters) detests them. Now we are finding out, more and more, that some of them are actually just recalcitrant perverts and/or criminals, or apologists for the same.
Why confront them, provoking a schism that would result in the loss of huge areas of Europe that may never return, when they can be waited out for a generation or two?
J
jimcav
Guest
Yes the press is anti-Catholic to a great degree. But we must admit to ourselves that that they are not the true problem. The Church itself is the problem. The way it runs and functions, the lack of transparency, the rebelliousness of our clergy and lay people. Everyone in the Church is being given to much slack and are now openly wandering from the true teachings and many are getting out of line and disobedient. They must be reigned in. These problems are of our own making, not the press’s.
We will absolutely need a very strong, iron willed, no-nonsense Pope this time around. One that will clean things up, take on the abuse problem and the rebellious clergy once and for all no matter the cost. He must be respected and even feared a little by those under him. Cleaning up the mess will be job 1…
B
BroomWagon
Guest
annunciationmsp.org/
Annunciation Church is like so many in the Minneapolis/St. Paul Archdioecese, you see a picture of every Pastor the Church has had and the dates of their service to that Church…hence, we can all offer anecdotal evidence but I always find that impressive.
E
Elizabeth502
Guest
I respect what you’re saying, and at one point I had a similar faith-crisis, until I realized that when it came to my own crisis (not necessarily yours), my faith had been weak to begin with. Our faith is not in men (or women!). Our faith is in the Holy Spirit who guides the True Church of Jesus.
Two things about that:
(1) Its leaders are sinners, some of them heavy sinners like the rest of us.
(2) Its leaders sometimes manage poorly.
The latter is the key point that too many Catholics, ex-, and anti- don’t seriously consider.
Seminaries train men for the priesthood, and most of that training is still largely spiritual in nature, not practical – although there have been adjustments to the training of priests in the last 10 years. We will also begin to see gradual changes (maybe faster than we expect) in management capability as the Church continues to accept into its ranks priests and deacons who come from careers in the world, in which they have managed successfully and know the heck what an HR department is.
Direct and indirect changes will diminish the previous ill-advised tendency for self-protection and “damage control,” and increase (hopefully!) transparency. This general commitment to justice on the practical level continues to be a priority need of the Church, and I don’t just mean in the area of sexual abuse, but in the case of many other documented incidents of extremely poor clerical management – for example, in hiring and firing of diocesan employees. There are many, many cases on the local level in dioceses which have demonstated gross mismanagement.
We are looking at the end result of an older generation of priests, bishops, cardinals, who were not trained in modern understandings about accountability, transparency, and employee dignity in church settings. Their consciousness and courage about these issues has varied according to both their personal character AND according to the leadership they themselves received. (Some older clerics have had a high level of moral consciousness about their relationships with laity! Others, not so much.) Some of these men did not examine the consequences of secrecy and immunity and the model of authority they themselves were trained in.
I know of at least one person who is working in my region on institutional procedures in a diocese for bringing any sex abuse complaints to light. That’s being done as a joint lay-clerical effort. My own diocese has such established procedures already, and is very high-profile, having been in the national news about that. They lag behind in other areas of management (hiring/firing procedures), so there are still many areas of improvement. The continued need for improvement does not mean that the Holy Spirit has abandoned the Church; it means that just like us individuals, there is need for improvement.
U
utah_rose
Guest
I’m glad that he is. At least he is being humble about this. Cardinal Mahoney should take note of this, and at least not be joining the conclave.
L
Lucky7
Guest
First of all, only some of them are perverts, criminals and the like. Most are not. I disagree that the dissenter’s time is largely done. They are very much alive and well.
I don’t think the Church would have preferred to wait out the protesters in the 1500’s. I think it’s high time to let them all go their own way … since they are *unwilling *to fall in line with Catholic teaching. You want female priests? You want gay marriage? You want ABC? You want to support abortion? Fine. Start your own (another) Protestant denomination.
L
Lucky7
Guest
Can I hear an A-MEN?
E
Elizabeth502
Guest
Another Amen, with the correction that “they must be reined in” (not “reigned” in).
Just a pet-peeve of mine. Sorry 
C
cheezey
Guest
D
Deerslyr
Guest
I’m not meaning to be critical of the choices for Cardinal, but it seems like prudence would dictate that a Pope (any Pope really) conduct a thorough investigation prior to naming someone Cardinal. IIRC, even the papabiles go through a scrutiny in the days prior to a conclave to ferret out any scandal. (I want to say I read it in the book Conclave, by John Allen, Jr. prior to the 2005 Conclave.)
Possibly just one of the reforms that could be enacted by the next Pope if it is not something that is already occurring.
Possibly just one of the reforms that could be enacted by the next Pope if it is not something that is already occurring.
M
Michael1966
Guest
The greatest sadness in this is that the public’s view of the Church seems to be shaped by these high profile stories - and that can only help keep people away from the Church. It will probably take a generation to really move past the scandals and cover-ups of recent years - the current generation of cardinals and bishops is probably too tainted now, though of course many are honest and upright faithful servants of our Lord. Picking a younger Pope *may *help make a break from the recent past. The quiet faithful parish life also seems to go largely unnoticed, but I guess that will always be the case with the news. Please keep the UK in your prayers at this time.
U
unafraid
Guest
These seemingly endless scandals used to leave me weeping in near complete befuddled anguish. However , I am no longer driven to that sort of consternation , rather , I have grown to discern the clear movement of Divine Providence in this plague upon the Church.
Surely , it is in the dark , hidden recesses where evil does its most sinister damage. Once it is forced into the light of truth ( regardless how garish and ugly that truth may appear ) then the forces of goodness , beauty , and virtue might be most effectively brought against it in mortal combat.
Let the purification begin ; let it begin with every man , woman and child sitting in the pews. Instead of driving me from my faith and religion , these trials and tribulations have led me to a deeper appreciation for the Church , and a profound realization of how important my religion is to me.
In truth , the entire College of Cardinals could resign in a cloud of shame tomorrow and it wouldn’t shake my faith in the least bit. I would still be at church with my family , on bended knee , adoring Christ and gratefully partaking of His genuine Body , Soul , and Divinity.
Surely , it is in the dark , hidden recesses where evil does its most sinister damage. Once it is forced into the light of truth ( regardless how garish and ugly that truth may appear ) then the forces of goodness , beauty , and virtue might be most effectively brought against it in mortal combat.
Let the purification begin ; let it begin with every man , woman and child sitting in the pews. Instead of driving me from my faith and religion , these trials and tribulations have led me to a deeper appreciation for the Church , and a profound realization of how important my religion is to me.
In truth , the entire College of Cardinals could resign in a cloud of shame tomorrow and it wouldn’t shake my faith in the least bit. I would still be at church with my family , on bended knee , adoring Christ and gratefully partaking of His genuine Body , Soul , and Divinity.
H
hollpe
Guest
My wife also lived in Cardinal O’Brien’s diocese or a long time. He was always known as a great leader & has done a lot of good for the Catholic Church here in the UK.
The press, in particular the BBC, have been in a frenzy today with headlines, local & national radio phone ins etc. As usual the reporting has a nasty anti-catholic under-tone and it would appear the ‘trial by media’ has already found him guilty
I sincerely hope that he is found innocent. Although in the majority of the public’s eyes the type of media coverage we have seen today will already have done the damage & all the good that Cardinal O’Brien has done over the years will be largely forgotten.
B
beehumble
Guest
Yeah but back in the day the general populace was illiterate, so they were unaware of the scandals and thus it had no impact on their faith.
Everybody should hang in there of course, but these non-stop, ever-growing scandalous revelations are most certainly damaging the moral authoritarian voice of the Church in modern society, when it is so desperately needed. This is a sign of the times, and the great apostasy spoken of by St. Paul.I suspect a great purification is on the way, imho.
Pray, pray, pray, especially for priests/religious.
God bless you.
L
Lisa1967
Guest
Thank you very much. That’s good to know.
- Status