Pope approves barring gay seminarians

[2perfection]

an appaling act of homophobia which gives lie to the concept of love the sinner hate the sin.

it also link homosexuality with peadophilia, the old slur which is known not to be true.

it also gives lie to the vow of celibacy. that vow renounces sex, with this the pope has devalued those vows and reinforced the second class status of gay people,

it is a depraved and evil edict, clearly without mercy, kindness, spirituality or holyness.

it shames us all.

 

[felra]

2perfection:

an appaling act of homophobia which gives lie to the concept of love the sinner hate the sin.

it also link homosexuality with peadophilia, the old slur which is known not to be true.

it also gives lie to the vow of celibacy. that vow renounces sex, with this the pope has devalued those vows and reinforced the second class status of gay people,

it is a depraved and evil edict, clearly without mercy, kindness, spirituality or holyness.

it shames us all.

I am losing count of the number of homosexual apologists who have emerged on these CA forums since the Pope simply reiterated the Church’s ban on homosexual candidates to the priesthood. :nope:

 

[2perfection]

felra:

I am losing count of the number of homosexual apologists who have emerged on these CA forums since the Pope simply reiterated the Church’s ban on homosexual candidates to the priesthood. :nope:

tie knots into a bit of string if it helps.

 

[St.Curious]

Acting on tendancies is of course sinful for a celibate priest.

Being tempted and not acting is not sinful.

Homosexuality is a mortal sin as decided by the Church.

Living a life of homosexuality (active or not) is sinful.

Acting on homosexual tendancies is of course sinful for a celibate priest.

Being tempted by homosexual tendancies and not acting is not physically sinful, but it is mentally sinful, mortal even.

Prayer prayer prayer.

 

[rayne89]

St.Curious:

Being tempted and not acting is not sinful.

Living a life of homosexuality (active or not) is sinful.

Can you elaborate. These 2 seem to contradict each other. If a person struggles with same sex attraction but does act on it how is that sinful.

 

[mlchance]

2perfection:

it also link homosexuality with peadophilia, the old slur which is known not to be true.

The largest proportion of men incarcerated for sexually victimizing children self-identify as either homosexual or bisexual. Children raised by homosexuals are several times more likely to be victims of parent-child incest than children raised by heterosexual parents. Over three-quarters of cases of priestly sexual abuse have been homosexual in nature.

Do all homosexuals victimize children? Of course not. Are homosexuals disproportionately represented among child abusers? Yes.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[goofyjim]

I praise this decision and certainly hope the bishops enforce it. It reestablishes the idea that Cardinal Bevilacqua has stated that the seminarian must be able to see himself as married to the church as Christ was. One cannot do this if one is homosexual or even ssa in condition.

OTOH I do not consider ssa for the laity such a disorder that they need to spend massive amounts of money on therapy to change. I think a good spiritual director and a proper prayer life will suffice to give this person peace of mind. After all, St. Paul did not single out homosexuality as the worst thing in Corinth. He listed it equally with all the other abuses that were going on there.

 

[Deo_Volente]

Grace & Peace!

“The text, which was approved by Pope Benedict at the end of August, says that homosexual men should not be admitted to seminaries even if they are celibate, because their condition suggests a serious personality disorder which detracts from their ability to serve as ministers.

“The Congregation for Catholic Education prepared the Instruction after soliciting advice from all of the world’s bishops, from psychologists, and from moral theologians.”

“By definition, a Personality Disorder is an enduring pattern of thinking, feeling, and behaving that is relatively stable over time”. (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual-IV),

Felra, thanks for responding to my post, but I don’t think quoting things which do not directly answer the questions to which you refer is very illuminating. The tactic is similar to this:

Q: Why is the sky blue?
A: “Scientists agree that, due to a number of reasons, the sky appears to be blue.”

Not particularly helpful. Would you care to elaborate on the quotations you provided and perhaps help me to understand what I am supposed to intuit from them through their juxtaposition?

Orionthehunter–I think you ask some great questions, and I agree, for the most part, with your reasoned posts here. I do, however, believe that not admitting men with SSA requires a more precise formulation by the church on what, exactly, SSA is and what, exactly, its position towards it is–is it moral issue? A psychological issue? A biological issue? All three? Any clarification in this regard, particularly seen in the light of the ban against men with SSA will be shown to reflect on how the Roman Church lives the doctrine of grace.

Promethium–I’m a great fan of Charles Williams, really

Goofyjim–you write that a homosexual priest cannot, by nature of his homosexuality, see himself as married to the church. Does this not reduce marriage to the mere sanctioning of biological and /or sexual impulses? Surely marriage is more than the permission to have sex. As such, I am sure that the homosexual can understand the basic concept behind complementarity and the socio-cultural (not to mention psychological) meanings of masculine and feminine and does not need to generate physical sexual desire for the personification of the church (a spiritual metaphor/reality with which neither a heterosexual nor a homosexual priest can consummate a physical sexual relationship even should the desire to do so be generated) in order to understand and live a spiritual marriage to it.

And St. Curious–the catechism (until or unless it is changed) does not define homosexuality per se as a mortal sin. The condition is deemed “objectively disordered” though not objectively sinful. The nuance is subtle but important–it says that the person who is homosexual is not sinful in his or her being simply because he or she is homosexual. The sin, according to the catechism, lies in the act.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

Deo Gratias!

 

[sirknightron]

Peace be with you

My take on this is that people have a dendency not speak out against something they believe to be true.
An example of this is a Priest or anyone of the faith that are not willing to speak out against abortion or birth control because they have made up thier mind that for one reason or another it is ok.
They are not willing to tell someone that it wrong.
I feel the same to be true of those who are gay.
I am not saying that it wrong to be gay if that is who you truly are, but they must refrain from the sexual conduct with the same sex.
I do not see how someone who is gay will be willing to teach against it since they themselves are gay. Just as those who I mentioned above do not speak out against the sin. The vow of celibicy is not the issue. It is are willing to teach or speack out against homosexuality as the Church instructs them to?
The same will be for those who will not be willing on any issue.

Ron

 

[KCT]

“The text, which was approved by Pope Benedict at the end of August, says that homosexual men should not be admitted to seminaries even if they are celibate, because their condition suggests a serious personality disorder which detracts from their ability to serve as ministers.

In my diocesan paper there was a bishop quoted saying it will be hard to determine when a homosexual should be admitted to the seminary. He must not know the Holy Father said never. —KCT

 

[LCMS_No_More]

St.Curious:

Acting on tendancies is of course sinful for a celibate priest.

Being tempted and not acting is not sinful.

So far, so good.

St.Curious:

Homosexuality is a mortal sin as decided by the Church.

Actually, the teaching of the Church is that homosexual acts are sin, not the condition of homosexuality.

St.Curious:

Living a life of homosexuality (active or not) is sinful.

That makes no sense. You either are actively homosexual or not.

St.Curious:

Acting on homosexual tendancies is of course sinful for a celibate priest.

No doubt. Acting on any sexual desires is sinful for a Catholic priest sworn to celibacy.

St.Curious:

Being tempted by homosexual tendancies and not acting is not physically sinful, but it is mentally sinful, mortal even.

This is where you cross over into dangerous, dare I say borderline heretical, territory. It is one thing to be tempted, it is another thing to entertain that temptation and give in to it.

The teaching of the Church is that the inclination is objectively disordered, nothing more.

St.Curious:

Prayer prayer prayer.

Yes, that the Holy Sprit pour forth the virtues of charity and truth into your heart.

 

[contemplative]

felra:

I am losing count of the number of homosexual apologists who have emerged on these CA forums since the Pope simply reiterated the Church’s ban on homosexual candidates to the priesthood. :nope:

Remember that slow response when the news story first came out? That was the caused by the wind being knocked out of them. They have returned with a great gulp of air…just a great gulp of air.

 

[Catilieth]

I have some questions. If someone had the disorder of paranoid schizophrenia, should he be allowed to become a priest? How serious does a disorder have to be before it becomes disqualifying? At least paranoid schizophrenia does not also have the dimension of habitual mortal sin. Homosexuals can and have been cured. My impression is that if they are cured, they are no longer barred from entering the priesthood since they are no longer homosexual.

God forgives murder. How many murders should be the limit for disqualification for the priesthood? I don’t think forgiveness is the issue here.
Homosexuality is not a disorder that is expressed in a vacuum…it affects another person, always. We have all seen some of the disastrous results. Also, our Holy Father has usually made the distinction between homosexual men and men with SSA (one actually has acted upon his attraction, the other has never.)
If the document says “homosexual”, he assuredly is not speaking of someone who has never had same sex “experience”.

 

[RomanRyan1088]

OK, I fall into the SSA catergory, and after hearing this, I am somewhat saddened. I love my church, but it is hard for me to accept the fact that I am barred from the priesthood. But after a retreat I went to, which covered christian Lifestyles, I am not exactly sure if the priesthood is for me. i AM SERIOUSLY considering the single life, but in my hispanic machismo society, If you dont get married, you are weird, an outcast, and a disgrace to your family. I have a question though, If I were to find a girl that I like, would it be acceptable to marry her?

 

[LCMS_No_More]

RomanRyan1088:

OK, I fall into the SSA catergory, and after hearing this, I am somewhat saddened. I love my church, but it is hard for me to accept the fact that I am barred from the priesthood. But after a retreat I went to, which covered christian Lifestyles, I am not exactly sure if the priesthood is for me. i AM SERIOUSLY considering the single life, but in my hispanic machismo society, If you dont get married, you are weird, an outcast, and a disgrace to your family. I have a question though, If I were to find a girl that I like, would it be acceptable to marry her?

From what I understand (and probably to the consternation of many here), SSA, if disclosed beforehand, is not an impediment to the Sacrament of Matrimony.

 

[Catilieth]

LCMS_No_More:

From what I understand (and probably to the consternation of many here), SSA, if disclosed beforehand, is not an impediment to the Sacrament of Matrimony.

This is correct. SSA does not necessarily preclude heterosexual attraction. If disclosed beforehand, and if you have firm resolve not to act upon SSA, there is no impediment to marriage.

 

[milimac]

It must be heart-breaking for those with SSA who are celibate and want to give themselves to the Church in the vocation of Holy Orders, but in the end, whatever is best for the Church has priority over personal desires. Is SSA a contributing factor to the sexual abuse scandals? I don’t know, but nearly all the victims I have heard of involve boys in their young teens.

I think those with SSA can be good priests. Unfortunately, I think many seek the priesthood as a solution to their problems, rather than getting the help they need.

Another thought – could effeminate priests be a factor in the relative lack of vocations in the U.S.? Like it or not, we men have a tendency to have inflated egos and to care a lot how others percieve us. The priesthood is just not attractive to masculine men if many of their fellow seminarians are effeminate.

 

[Petergee]

Catilieth:

I
God forgives murder. How many murders should be the limit for disqualification for the priesthood? I don’t think forgiveness is the issue here.

I understand that if a man has ever taken a human life, he cannot become a priest. Even after he has confessed his sin and received absolution, served his sentence, or was not convicted of the civil crime of murder.

Homosexuality is not a disorder that is expressed in a vacuum…it affects another person, always. We have all seen some of the disastrous results. Also, our Holy Father has usually made the distinction between homosexual men and men with SSA (one actually has acted upon his attraction, the other has never.)
If the document says “homosexual”, he assuredly is not speaking of someone who has never had same sex “experience”.

I think you’ll find he is. i.e. repeating Pope John XXIII’s direction that men with homosexual TENDENCIES (even if they have never acted upon them) should not be ordained or admitted to religious orders, due to the risk to others (and themselves - it may increase their temptations and create an occasion of sin).

 

[Catilieth]

Petergee:

I understand that if a man has ever taken a human life, he cannot become a priest. Even after he has confessed his sin and received absolution, served his sentence, or was not convicted of the civil crime of murder…

My point exactly. And forgiveness is not the issue at hand.

Petergee:

think you’ll find he is. i.e. repeating Pope John XXIII’s direction that men with homosexual TENDENCIES (even if they have never acted upon them) should not be ordained or admitted to religious orders, due to the risk to others (and themselves - it may increase their temptations and create an occasion of sin).

Thank you…didn’t read closely.

 

[2perfection]

mlchance:

The largest proportion of men incarcerated for sexually victimizing children self-identify as either homosexual or bisexual. Children raised by homosexuals are several times more likely to be victims of parent-child incest than children raised by heterosexual parents. Over three-quarters of cases of priestly sexual abuse have been homosexual in nature.

Do all homosexuals victimize children? Of course not. Are homosexuals disproportionately represented among child abusers? Yes.

– Mark L. Chance.

Actually, a few years ago I did the math and the research while embroiled in a deabte with a guy called Cramer. He made similar claims.

just 2% of convicted peadophiles self-identify as gay, which lust happened to confirm the figure I had come up with by re-examining studies on sexuality.

what was note worthy was that there was something like a 20% group who identified themselves as heterosexual, but molested boys and girls. Here they were labled bisexual regardless of self-identity because of their actions. this group were mixed in with self-iding gays and so the ‘disproportionate’ numbers appear. Also note-worthy was that one homosexual molestation for a heterosexual man was enough to relable him for life.

I admit I did this study 14 years ago, if I can find the details after all this time I will. but I doubt things have changed that much.

I aslo recall certain differences in the make up of the crimes. single-homosexual child abusers could have amazingly long lists of victims (dozens, and in one case I recall about 1000 charges), but the contacts were usually one-offs. with hetersexual peadophiles the victims tended to be readily accessible young females from within the family, with systematic re-occurances of the abuse.

Another factor was alcohol (alcohol appears in a lot of crimes, rape, murder, assault of all sorts, dangerous driving, robbery, etc–yet the ‘evil’ of homosexuality gets way more attention, weird that).

As for parent child incest, hmmm, i hadnt heard that claim before. i may research it today if the firewall doesnt get in the way.

Anyway, personal research and personal statistical analysis by yours truly contradicts your assertion.

might I ask when you did the maths?