Pope asks mercy, pardon for ways Christians have harmed one another

[St_Pancake]

Why not?

Martin Luther suffered from SEVERE scrupulosity (probably would be diagnosed with OCD today.) If the Church hadn’t been so overly severe at the time (Jansenism) maybe he wouldn’t have gone off the deep end and left the Church. Don’t know about the others. Maybe some of them had issues too.

Martin Luther died before Cornelius Jansen was born. I’m not sure that the Church’s severity with Jansenism can be blamed for any problems Luther had.

 

[FollowChrist34]

Martin Luther died before Cornelius Jansen was born. I’m not sure that the Church’s severity with Jansenism can be blamed for any problems Luther had.

Luther and the Jansenists were on the same page anyway - Augustine. Different eras, different countries.

 

[Maximilan_Kolbe]

Luther and the Jansenists were on the same page anyway - Augustine. Different eras, different countries.

Regardless, are you claiming the Pope is holding us accountable to mercy and forgiveness for wrongs, but because of “the culture of the Church at the time” somehow Luther was excused?

The Pope’s message in this specific case could be directly aimed at him. Let’s not pick and choose who a Papal message applies to, because “well, he had it tougher than we do.” That’s a bunch of garbage.

 

[Pulvis]

papalencyclicals.net/Leo10/l10exdom.htm

For anyone who wishes to read Pope Leo X “Exsurge Domine” in regards to Luther. Notice the last paragraph. Seems full of Charity and Forgiveness to me. That Luther refused is on him, not the Church.

 

[jediliz]

Has England apologized for the murders of thomas more and john fisher and the catholic priests they killed after the reformation? And for seizing churches that were Catholic?

 

[LongingSoul]

Has England apologized for the murders of thomas more and john fisher and the catholic priests they killed after the reformation? And for seizing churches that were Catholic?

You’re really missing the point of this mercy stuff…

 

[Maximilan_Kolbe]

You’re really missing the point of this mercy stuff…

I’d say we are to offer mercy to those who have wronged us (and those who have not directly as well). This applies regardless of whether or not mercy is offered back.

That is not to say his message is noit also directed at those who supported the English Reformation - of course they should be offering mercy and forgiveness. But that ultimately is something they must do of their own accord. We can only control ourselves.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Has England apologized for the murders of thomas more and john fisher and the catholic priests they killed after the reformation? And for seizing churches that were Catholic?

Jesus didn’t teach us to wait for apologies from those who have persecuted us, but to forgive them regardless.

Jim

 

[LongingSoul]

I’d say we are to offer mercy to those who have wronged us (and those who have not directly as well). This applies regardless of whether or not mercy is offered back.

That is not to say his message is noit also directed at those who supported the English Reformation - of course they should be offering mercy and forgiveness. But that ultimately is something they must do of their own accord. We can only control ourselves.

Mercy isn’t something that that’s measured by the scales of justice. eg. I’ll say sorry when you say sorry. Or I’ll show mercy when you repent. We have to learn to think outside that square altogether. eg. forget the wrong altogether and start walking together.

The original article quotes Pope Francis "At the same time, I ask all my Catholic brothers and sisters to forgive if, today or in the past, they were hurt by other Christians,” he said. “We cannot erase what happened, but we do not want to allow the burden of past faults to continue to poison our relationships.”

The path to Christian unity, he said, is not simply about drawing closer to one another, but has more to do with each person drawing closer to Christ and finding each other there.

 

[Maximilan_Kolbe]

Mercy isn’t something that that’s measured by the scales of justice. eg. I’ll say sorry when you say sorry. Or I’ll show mercy when you repent. We have to learn to think outside that square altogether. eg. forget the wrong altogether and start walking together.

The original article quotes Pope Francis "At the same time, I ask all my Catholic brothers and sisters to forgive if, today or in the past, they were hurt by other Christians,” he said. “We cannot erase what happened, but we do not want to allow the burden of past faults to continue to poison our relationships.”

The path to Christian unity, he said, is not simply about drawing closer to one another, but has more to do with each person drawing closer to Christ and finding each other there.

I think I alluded to that, and agree. The message is aimed at everyone, including the members of the Reformation and its progeny, as well as everyone on this board, but in the Year of Mercy, we are especially called to offer it unconditionally, regardless of the state of mind of others. That state is for them to reconcile with the Lord, not us.

 

[Justin_Swanton]

The reformation was not about separation, but intent to reform the Catholic Church to enforce its own doctrines and bring the clergy and religious into compliance with them.

It would be a good idea to read Luther’s 95 Theses which got the whole Reformation going. They are shot through with heresy. Try the first four:1. When our Lord and Master Jesus Christ said, ``Repent’’ (Mt 4:17), he willed the entire life of believers to be one of repentance.

1. This word cannot be understood as referring to the sacrament of penance, that is, confession and satisfaction, as administered by the clergy.
2. Yet it does not mean solely inner repentance; such inner repentance is worthless unless it produces various outward mortification of the flesh.
3. The penalty of sin remains as long as the hatred of self (that is, true inner repentance), namely till our entrance into the kingdom of heaven.
   Or these:
4. Imperfect piety or love on the part of the dying person necessarily brings with it great fear; and the smaller the love, the greater the fear.

15 This fear or horror is sufficient in itself, to say nothing of other things, to constitute the penalty of purgatory, since it is very near to the horror of despair.

1. Furthermore, it does not seem proved, either by reason or by Scripture,* that souls in purgatory are outside the state of merit*, that is, unable to grow in love.
2. Nor does it seem proved that souls in purgatory, at least not all of them, are certain and assured of their own salvation, even if we ourselves may be entirely certain of it.
3. Therefore the pope, when he uses the words plenary remission of all penalties,'' ***does not actually mean all penalties,*’’** but only those imposed by himself.
4. As a matter of fact, the pope remits to souls in purgatory no penalty which, according to canon law, they should have paid in this life.
   And so on. This is not about upholding respect for Church teaching but about changing the teaching.

 

[ProVobis]

I think I alluded to that, and agree. The message is aimed at everyone, including the members of the Reformation and its progeny, as well as everyone on this board, but in the Year of Mercy, we are especially called to offer it unconditionally, regardless of the state of mind of others. That state is for them to reconcile with the Lord, not us.

And it’s an ongoing process. If a neighbor keeps harping on what I should or shouldn’t be doing, for example, it’s not easy to show that mercy every time I hear his badmouthing of me.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Justin Swanton

It would be a good idea to read Luther’s 95 Theses which got the whole Reformation going. They are shot through with heresy.

Try the first four:

1. When our Lord and Master Jesus Christ said, ``Repent’’ (Mt 4:17), he willed the entire life of believers to be one of repentance.

1. This word cannot be understood as referring to the sacrament of penance, that is, confession and satisfaction, as administered by the clergy.

1. Yet it does not mean solely inner repentance; such inner repentance is worthless unless it produces various outward mortification of the flesh.

1. The penalty of sin remains as long as the hatred of self (that is, true inner repentance), namely till our entrance into the kingdom of heaven.

OK so I’m failing to see how these are heretical ?

Jim

 

[Justin_Swanton]

OK so I’m failing to see how these are heretical ?

Jim

1. The essence of confession is repentance (the contrition) and forgiveness of God through the absolution of the priest. So going to confession can certainly be a way of repenting. If Luther had said ‘not only’ this thesis would have been acceptable.
2. Point taken on ‘inner repentance’ - it is a component of repentance broadly understood and the most important one, but not the only one.
3. The penalty of sin does ***not ***necessarily remain until admittance to heaven. One can be free of all punishment due to sin before death as was the case with some saints. Luther’s core theology is kicking in here (justification is only Christ covering over man’s guilt from God - the inner man remains sinful. But this could start a long discussion…

 

[Maximilan_Kolbe]

And it’s an ongoing process. If a neighbor keeps harping on what I should or shouldn’t be doing, for example, it’s not easy to show that mercy every time I hear his badmouthing of me.

This is true from all sides. Topics appear all the time criticizing the Church for her teachings on contraception, or same sex-marriage. I suspect less “faithful” Catholics tie of being told they need to attend Mass regularly, or should be voting for politicians who promote the slaughter of innocents. But mercy is to be extended in both directions, regardless. And it is difficult.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

1. The essence of confession is repentance (the contrition) and forgiveness of God through the absolution of the priest. So going to confession can certainly be a way of repenting. If Luther had said ‘not only’ this thesis would have been acceptable.
2. Point taken on ‘inner repentance’ - it is a component of repentance broadly understood and the most important one, but not the only one.
3. The penalty of sin does ***not ***necessarily remain until admittance to heaven. One can be free of all punishment due to sin before death as was the case with some saints. Luther’s core theology is kicking in here (justification is only Christ covering over man’s guilt from God - the inner man remains sinful. But this could start a long discussion…

But this theses was written within the context of the abuse of indulgences.

So,

1. This word cannot be understood as referring to the sacrament of penance, that is, confession and satisfaction, as administered by the clergy.

Satisfaction as administered by the clergy, he was referring to the abuse of an indulgence placed upon the repentant.

There is plenty of debate on the theses over the centuries and I believe via dialogue between Lutherans and Pope John Paul II, there was a clearer understanding.

Jim

 

[EmperorNapoleon]

And so on. This is not about upholding respect for Church teaching but about changing the teaching.

You might view it that way today, but it was not so when Luther wrote the theses. The cornerstone of all Catholic teaching as it relates to purgatory is a verse in the book of II Maccabees. At that time, there was a centuries old and unsettled distinction between canon and scripture with a rather impressive list of fathers and doctors of the church, saints, and theologians who believed that the deuterocanonical books (or Apocrypha) were not scripture and that incorporation into the canon did not make them so. This challenge to the nature of the duterocanonical books started in the 3rd century and it was not settled by the Church until the Council of Trent (which issued an infallible declaration that the entirety of the canon is scripture). An honest assessment of the optics of this is that they were/are horrendous no matter which side, Catholic or Protestant, you’re on. It is an unfair criticism to accuse Luther of heresy and attempting to change a teaching that was based on a passage with a 1200-1300 year old unanswered question of repute hanging over it.

 

[Justin_Swanton]

You might view it that way today, but it was not so when Luther wrote the theses. The cornerstone of all Catholic teaching as it relates to purgatory is a verse in the book of II Maccabees. At that time, there was a centuries old and unsettled distinction between canon and scripture with a rather impressive list of fathers and doctors of the church, saints, and theologians who believed that the deuterocanonical books (or Apocrypha) were not scripture and that incorporation into the canon did not make them so. This challenge to the nature of the duterocanonical books started in the 3rd century and it was not settled by the Church until the Council of Trent (which issued an infallible declaration that the entirety of the canon is scripture). An honest assessment of the optics of this is that they were/are horrendous no matter which side, Catholic or Protestant, you’re on. It is an unfair criticism to accuse Luther of heresy and attempting to change a teaching that was based on a passage with a 1200-1300 year old unanswered question of repute hanging over it.

One could start a long discussion on the history of Luther’s doctrines. What is clear is that he did teach heresy and in doing so split from the Church (nobody, neither Lutherans nor Catholics affirms that Luther died believing in Catholicism). But to give an in-depth analysis of his religious thinking and its evolution would probably be beyond the scope of this thread. I could do it but others have already done a far better job of it.

 

[EmperorNapoleon]

One could start a long discussion on the history of Luther’s doctrines. What is clear is that he did teach heresy and in doing so split from the Church (nobody, neither Lutherans nor Catholics affirms that Luther died believing in Catholicism). But to give an in-depth analysis of his religious thinking and its evolution would probably be beyond the scope of this thread. I could do it but others have already done a far better job of it.

Good discussion…its a shame there isn’t a more appropriate thread to go more in-depth.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Good discussion…its a shame there isn’t a more appropriate thread to go more in-depth.

But then we have Pope John Paul II, Pope Benedict XVI and now Pope Francis, all who have had dialogue with Lutherans and have come to an agreement on just what Luther was referring to in his 95 Theses.

So, why can’t Catholics in this forum accept their conclusion ?

Jim