Pope Benedict admits evidence for evolution

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My understanding is that we have facts concerning Mitochondrial Eve but only speculation that there were other females around. Is this not the case?
Your understanding is incorrect. The existence of a Mitochondrial Eve is contingent on the fact that women tend to have more than one child:Consider all the humans alive today on Earth. Put them into a set S.

Next, consider the set of all those women who were the mothers of the people in the set S. Call this set S’. A few observations about this new set S’. It consists of only women (while set S consists of both men and women) – this is because we chose to follow only the mother-of relationship in going from set S to set S’. Also note that not every member of set S’ needs to be in set S – set S consists of all people living today, while some of the mothers of living people could have died, they would be in set S’ but not in set S. Third, the size of set S’ is never larger than the size of set S. Why? This is because of the simple fact that each of us has only one mother. It is however overwhelmingly more likely that the size of set S’ is much smaller than that of set S – this is because each woman usually has more than one child.

Repeat the process of following the mother-of relationship with set S’ to generate a new set S’’. This set will consist of only women, and will be no larger (and very likely smaller) than set S’.

Continue this process. There will come a point when the set will consist of smaller and smaller number of women, until we finally come to a single woman who is related to all members in our original set via the transitive-closure of the mother-of relation. There is nothing special about her. Had we chosen to follow the father-of relation, we would have hit the Y-chromosome Adam. Had we chosen to follow combinations of mother-of and father-of relations, we would have hit some other of our common ancestors. The only reason why the mother-of relationship seems special is because we can track it using the evidence of mitochondrial DNA.

Thus there must exist a single woman whose is the matrilineal most-recent common ancestor of every in set S.

…]

Also important to keep in mind is that while the final set S’* has only one member (the Mitochondrial Eve), she was by no means the only living woman on Earth during her lifetime. Many other women lived with her, but they either did not leave descendents or did not leave descendents via the matrilineal line, who are still alive today.

Source: What, if anything, is a Mitochondrial Eve?
The presence of other women at the same time is shown by the evidence for genetic bottlenecks in the human populations. This is determined by the amount of genetic diversity present - the smaller the population the less the genetic diversity. For example, Cheetahs had a severe genetic bottleneck during the last Ice Age. As a result they have a very low genetic diversity and it is possible to graft skin from one Cheetah to another without fearing rejection because they are all very closely related.

The amount of genetic diversity in human populations is too large for there to have been a bottleneck of either eight people (Noah and family) or two people (Adam and Eve) in the last seventy thousand years.

The smallest figure I have seem for a human genetic bottleneck is between 1,000 and 100,000 breeding pairs about 70,000 years ago, associated with the Toba catastrophe.

It is also worth bearing in mind that the Y-chromosome Adam (the patrilineal equivalent of the Mitochondrial Eve) lived between 90,000 and 60,000 years ago. Mitochondrial Eve lived about 140,000 years ago, so there were at least 50,000 years between them - they never met.

rossum
 
Whatever your opinion re evolution, the ultimate reality as well documented by our religious text is that at some point in time, God the Ultimate Creator of all chose to communicate with mankind is such a fashion as to raise man to a spiritual level that no other creation of God has attained. The fact that we thereby can conceive of God raises mankind to a point of existence vastly superior to all life (and obviously inanimate life) forms. Man may have and may continue to “evolve” but his status as a Child of God with an eternal hope and vision from the time God imparted a soul to him will be unchanging. While we can continue to ponder where our physical being originated from, God has made clear our “evolution” infused by his Spirit is what makes us not just another species. Descarte I believe said to support his proof of his existence, " I think, therefore I am". I say " I can think of God, and therefore He exists", because in this case God has through his communications with the world has given us the grace of intellect sufficient to receive and know Him. So in the final analysis regardless of our beliefs re evolution, soulfull man has a divine destiny that really makes the question of understandable but limited reference in my opinion.
 
Perhaps you’re right, but to argue that the prevailing scientific theory is wrong as a result of this tendency is a flawed argument.

The bottom line is that our universe provides us with information which allows us to deduce how it works. Why would God create a universe that deceives us? Genesis says over and over again that “He saw that it was good”, and it was man that fell – not nature.

Peace,
Dante
I have read and reread parts of the bible, and in May on morning after a wedding, I grabbed the Bible from the night stand and started at the beginning. This different interpritation gave this new insight. I’m sure I’m wrong or someone else would have seen it, but it said something like " In the beginning there was nothing and God called forth the Light." Now I could be way off here, but could he be calling His Only Begotten Son, as anyone would call their child, and this was light? Also it said that His spirit moved over the barren waters and brought forth life, could this again be to show us how the Holy Spirit is the Breath of Life? I’ve been dwelling on this for months and how I feel we are missing some of the parallels of Gods hidden messages which I think are so obvious. Help me out if you could:confused:
 
I believe that God created the earth in six literal days. Adam and Eve, the animals, birds, sun/moon/stars, seas/land all of it. To say it took millions of years is to say the bible is a lie ie God is in essence lying. Sorry I won’t go there.

When you start casting doubt on God’s word then it all goes down hill from there. You’ll start hearing (like satan) “did God really say” or “does the bible really say”. It says six DAYS. Not thousands of years. So since God rested on the seventh day, should we assume he rested a thousand years? Did Joshua hold up his arms when the Israelites were fighting for a thousand years when it said a day?

C’mon believe the bible and tradition not “science falsely so called”.
 
I have read and reread parts of the bible, and in May on morning after a wedding, I grabbed the Bible from the night stand and started at the beginning. This different interpritation gave this new insight. I’m sure I’m wrong or someone else would have seen it, but it said something like " In the beginning there was nothing and God called forth the Light." Now I could be way off here, but could he be calling His Only Begotten Son, as anyone would call their child, and this was light? Also it said that His spirit moved over the barren waters and brought forth life, could this again be to show us how the Holy Spirit is the Breath of Life? I’ve been dwelling on this for months and how I feel we are missing some of the parallels of Gods hidden messages which I think are so obvious. Help me out if you could:confused:
Can’t say this enough: The bible is not a scientific text book.
When God created the Light, that was not the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity. The three Persons are co-eternal. To say otherwise is heresy.

Moses was writing Genesis to simple herdspeople. He gave them a simple story that they would help them understand how the universe came into being.
If you have a rational theory, not even a ‘scientific law’ like gravity to explain the universe, fine. So long as you understand that God created the universe, even in germ, and at one point in time He entered into the process, or in the beginning process, took a time to create Adam - not necessarily the Adam, and the rib and all that stuff, but our first parents, with souls. That’s fine. We’ll accept it.
 
I believe that God created the earth in six literal days. Adam and Eve, the animals, birds, sun/moon/stars, seas/land all of it. To say it took millions of years is to say the bible is a lie ie God is in essence lying. Sorry I won’t go there…
Again, the Bible is not a scientific text book. The Bible is infallible on matters of faith and morals, just like the Catholic Church. The Bible retells the journey of man from his beginnings, through Salvation by Christ on the Cross. Creation in the Bible is a simple story. I’m not saying it is simplistic. But, as a life-long Catholic, I have no trouble accepting that the universe took millions of years to create, after all, a million years to God is an instant.
 
I have taken the liberty of skipping through the majority of posts so forgive me if I rehash ideas that have already been kicked around.

I’ve met many Roman Catholics concerned over the churches eagerness to appear “rational” & “modern” thus capitulating to current evolutionary speculations regarding the origin of life.

The theological implications of a pure assent to everything that evolution through natural selection represents is absolutely devastating to the ideas we hold as Christians.

Perhaps the Roman pontiff hasn’t taken the time to really meditate on what it means. God: a slave to death? God: unable to truly create all things ex-nihilo? God: a blind watchmaker (As Richard Dawkins would say!)

What’s with all that stuff in scripture about God creating everything perfectly and declaring it to be very good? If all that ‘very good’ stuff was dying and slaughtering itself it sure doesn’t seem good to me! let alone, ‘Very Good!’

Evolution teaches that everything starts out very imperfect and primordial and slowly, through death of course, becomes perfect. God seems to say that He did everything rather well in the start.

Paul teaches that sin entered the world through one man and that one sin brought death with it (Romans 5:12.) Was the Holy Spirit telling a fib here? Surely the one mans sin did not bring death, death was as ancient as creation itself! In fact, there was never a time when the Creator was not using death like a paint brush to create.

Considering that The Holy Spirit also calls death the last enemy to be destroyed (I Corinthians 15:26)makes you wonder why the Triune God had been allying with it for such a long time… 🤷

I would love to assent to evolution and confess it daily to escape the ridicule one incurs defending the way God says He’s done it. I just don’t know how to reconcile that theory with a belief that we were created perfectly in perfect communion with God in paradise. Nor do I know of any means to justify the concept of the fall into sin. :confused:
 
This makes the last two Popes who have said they believe in some sort of evolution. I am surprised that a man who calls himself the vicar of Christ would speak heresy since it is the Savior Who created all. He spoke & it was, He commanded & it stood fast. Evolutionists have gone from the big explosion to punctuated equilibrium to try & explain evolution, with 8 different ideas in between. With the Cambrian explosion they have the latter. Billions of fossils & not one showing any changes. I am glad that I have to only come up with one reason for being here. My Savior created all. Be carefull of vain deceit of athiests. What about stasis. I could present overwhelming evidence that debunks macro evolution. May all search for truth as it is in our Creator. May the Almighty bless you all in your journey for truth.
 
I’ve been reading this thread and the arguments from the beginning.

I’ve noticed that the anti-evolutionists rely on a strict literal interpretation of Genesis to the exclusion of Papal pronouncements going back to Pius XII.

“The Bible says it so it must be true. If it ain’t in the Bible, it ain’t true,” sort of attitude.

Now where have I heard that before???

Oh yeah, from Sola Scriptura Protestants. And specifically fundamentalist Protestants. You know the kind: “Show me where (Catholic Church, the Papacy, Confession, etc.) are in the Bible!”
 
This makes the last two Popes who have said they believe in some sort of evolution. I am surprised that a man who calls himself the vicar of Christ would speak heresy since it is the Savior Who created all.
someone else who thinks he is more Catholic than the pope?:eek:
He spoke & it was, He commanded & it stood fast. Evolutionists have gone from the big explosion to punctuated equilibrium to try & explain evolution, with 8 different ideas in between.
different ideas about the specific mechanics of evolution do not detract from the basic fact that things evolve.
With the Cambrian explosion they have the latter. Billions of fossils & not one showing any changes. I am glad that I have to only come up with one reason for being here. My Savior created all.
yes, He did through evolution
Be carefull of vain deceit of athiests.
who cares what they say?
What about stasis.
what is that?
I could present overwhelming evidence that debunks macro evolution.
and you would of course be wrong
May all search for truth as it is in our Creator. May the Almighty bless you all in your journey for truth.
thank you
and may God open your eyes to the glory of His Creation
 
I think the Pope is right on and displays a tremendous amount of common sense. The fundies can’t stand evolution and even scienticific evidence is scoffed at?🤷
 
This may be off topic… but the evolution theory is still missing it’s “missing link” to tie humans to apes and such.

Also, those ape like people they have found may not even be the same species as us.
(Just a thought. Don’t flame me)
 
a) does it what his cousin said take anything away from the theory?
b) social Darwinism has nothing to do with evolution
Social Darwinism has everything to do with evolution. Evolution is, as I’m told all the time…
“is the change in the inherited traits of a population from generation to generation”
forums.catholic-questions.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=2555893

Social Darwinism is too. One is ‘natural’ the other 'artificial. Darwin himself used artificial selection (in pigeon breeding) to describe how natural selection might work.

He also talked of the extinction of more primitive societies of man.

Survival of the fittest!
 
Your understanding is incorrect. The existence of a Mitochondrial Eve is contingent on the fact that women tend to have more than one child:
Consider all the humans alive today on Earth. Put them into a set S.

What you’re unwilling to accept is that we can all be descendant from one woman, which this shows is possible.​
 
Can’t say this enough: The bible is not a scientific text book.
When God created the Light, that was not the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity. The three Persons are co-eternal. To say otherwise is heresy.
However the ‘word’ as we know is Jesus and the Nicene Creed says of him ‘through whom all things were made’. Why accept one thing and not another?
Moses was writing Genesis to simple herdspeople. He gave them a simple story that they would help them understand how the universe came into being.
But he told them nothing that was false.
If you have a rational theory, not even a ‘scientific law’ like gravity to explain the universe, fine. So long as you understand that God created the universe, even in germ, and at one point in time He entered into the process, or in the beginning process, took a time to create Adam - not necessarily the Adam, and the rib and all that stuff, but our first parents, with souls. That’s fine. We’ll accept it.
Except you make God a being who creates a system where he’s uncessary (as according to Evolution it all happened naturally)
 
I think the Pope is right on and displays a tremendous amount of common sense. The fundies can’t stand evolution and even scienticific evidence is scoffed at?
Indeed, how dare people believe God! What next?
 
What you’re unwilling to accept is that we can all be descendant from one woman, which this shows is possible.
You misunderstand me. I am willing to accept that we are descended from one woman through the purely matrilineal line. That is only looking at mothers, never at fathers. There were other women alive at the same time as M-Eve but I am not descended from tham purely through the female line, at some point I am descended from a son, grandson, great-grandson etc. of those other women. At any generation going backwards I have many ancestors, but I only have one in the purely matrilineal line - my mother’s mother’s mother’s … mother. For example I have eight great-grandparents. Only one of them, my mother’s female side grandmother, is purely matrilineal. All my other great grandparents were related to me through one or more males so I do not have any of their mitochondrial DNA. My other DNA could well have come from any of those other great grandparents.

There is no scientific support for a single pair of humans using this method.

rossum
 
You misunderstand me. I am willing to accept that we are descended from one woman through the purely matrilineal line. That is only looking at mothers, never at fathers. There were other women alive at the same time as M-Eve but I am not descended from tham purely through the female line, at some point I am descended from a son, grandson, great-grandson etc. of those other women. At any generation going backwards I have many ancestors, but I only have one in the purely matrilineal line - my mother’s mother’s mother’s … mother. For example I have eight great-grandparents. Only one of them, my mother’s female side grandmother, is purely matrilineal. All my other great grandparents were related to me through one or more males so I do not have any of their mitochondrial DNA. My other DNA could well have come from any of those other great grandparents.

rossum
AND there’s a single ‘Adam’ too…
Mitochondrial Eve (mt-mrca) is the name given by researchers to the woman who is the matrilineal most recent common ancestor (MRCA) for all living humans. Passed down from mothers to offspring for over a hundred thousand years, her mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) is now found in all living humans: every mtDNA in every living person is derived from hers. Mitochondrial Eve is the female counterpart of Y-chromosomal Adam, the patrilineal most recent common ancestor, although they lived at different times.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_eve
 
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