Pope Benedict admits evidence for evolution

  • Thread starter Thread starter Montalban
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
That’s conjecture then as to ‘why’ I’m using it. You have indeed stated what I said, but then guessed why I said it.

I stated the ‘why’ after your own previous objection. You can’t possibly prove ‘why’ I said something. You may believe you know, you’ve been corrected. To simply carry on like this is to assume you know me better than I do! :rolleyes:
Your motivation for talking about a concept that you clearly don’t understand is, of a course, a mystery to me. Only you know why you would choose to display your ignorance about it over and over again.

However, the fact that you produced the concept as a direct response to the (correct) statement that there has been no bottleneck of less than 10,000 individuals in the human lineage is a matter of record, not conjecture.

Alec
evolutionpages.com
 
M-Eve is not hypothetical, she was real. A real member of a real population.
I don’t care whether she’s real or not, just a possibility
Agreed, but she is not the single ancestor of them all. She only accounts for 1% of our DNA. The rest of our DNA comes from her contemporaries.
She’s the single contributor of mitochondria to them all.
There is no support for any population bottleneck in the existence of M-Eve.

rossum
Other than we can conceive that there’s one contributor to all the world’s population in respect to mitochondria.

**every **mtDNA in every living person is derived from hers.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_Eve

You keep thinking that the idea of a ‘bottleneck’ is signficant, or rather a lack there of

The existence of an MRCA does not imply existence of a population bottleneck or first couple. The MRCA of everyone alive today could have co-existed with a large human population, most of whom either have no living descendants today or else are ancestors of a subset of people alive today. This seemingly paradoxical phenomenon can be easily explained, if the nature of lineage is taken into account.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Most_recent_common_ancestor#MRCA_of_all_living_humans

Whether there was OR NOT is not relevant, for as far as we are concerned, there must be, by virtue of the fact that should an MRCA have existed all other persons living are irrelevant AS FAR AS OUR LEGACY is concerned.
 
Your motivation for talking about a concept that you clearly don’t understand is, of a course, a mystery to me.
Two points here.

one is a just-so that you believe I don’t know what I’m talking about, based on your say-so
two is an immediate contradiction of your previous stance where you claimed to know why I was talking of M-Eve.

How’s that now leave your argument! 😛
Only you know why you would choose to display your ignorance about it over and over again.
A repeat of your just-so
However, the fact that you produced the concept as a direct response to the (correct) statement that there has been no bottleneck of less than 10,000 individuals in the human lineage is a matter of record, not conjecture.
The ‘no-bottleneck’ has not been proved here.
It’s irrelevant, as noted earlier, if there was no bottleneck, because my contention was simply that we can conceive of a single female ancestor to all, and that’s what M-Eve shows, albeit as far as mitochondira is concerned. ALL OTHER PEOPLE LIVING AT THAT TIME therefore are irrelevant as they’re not our ancestors, (with respect to mitochondria). Nothing you’ve said has refuted this.
Montalban
creationontheweb.org/
 
Two points here.

one is a just-so that you believe I don’t know what I’m talking about, based on your say-so
I know that you don’ t know what you are talking about based on the scientific errors you keep repeating.
The ‘no-bottleneck’ has not been proved here.
The molecular evidence disallows the possibility of a bottleneck of two individuals in the human lineage.

The key finding is that analysis of common alleles in highly polymorphic loci in human and chimpanzee indicate no severe bottleneck since the divergence of human and chimpanzee lineages.

This is supported by:
  1. analysis of the major histocompatibility complex - specifically the human leucocyte antigen - DRB1:
    Ayala, ‘The myth of Eve, Molecular biology and human origins’, Science 270, 1930 - 1936
  2. Beta-globin:
    Harding et al, ‘Archaic African and Asian lineages in the genetic ancestry of modern humans’, Am J Hum Genet 60, 772 - 789
  3. Apolipoprotein C II:
    Xiong et al, ‘No severe bottleneck during human evolution; evidence from two apolipoprotein C II alleles’, Am J Hum Genet 48, 383 -389
Rogers and Jorde, ‘Genetic evidence on the origin of modern humans’, Hum Biol 67, 1 - 36, show that a modest bottleneck of 10,000 individuals is consistent with the data.

This minimum population size of 10,000 individuals throughout hominid history is also supported by mitochondrial genetic diversity:
Takahata, ‘Allelic genealogy and human evolution’, Mol Biol Evol 10, 2 - 22;

By Y-chromosome data:
Hammer, ’ A recent common ancestry for human Y-chromosomes’, Nature 378, 376 - 378

By nuclear DNA:
Takahata et al, ‘Diversion time and population size in the lineage leading to modern humans’, Theor Popul Biol 48, 198 - 221

All of this evidence refutes the possibility that humans derive genetically from just two individuals in any generation within the last 6 million years.

Alec
evolutionpages.com
 
.
It’s irrelevant, as noted earlier, if there was no bottleneck, because my contention was simply that we can conceive of a single female ancestor to all, and that’s what M-Eve shows, albeit as far as mitochondira is concerned.
Mitochondrial Eve shows no such thing. mtEve is the popular name for the MRCA in the strictly female line - they are the same thing. One doesn’t show the other. The existence of mtEve is a given from coalescence theory. See, for eample:
*Introduction to Coalescent Theory, *available on-line here:

and
Norborg, *Coalescent Theory, *March 2000, available on-line here:
walnut.usc.edu/~magnus/papers/wiley.pdf
ALL OTHER PEOPLE LIVING AT THAT TIME therefore are irrelevant as they’re not our ancestors, (with respect to mitochondria). Nothing you’ve said has refuted this.
Nothing I have said refutes the contention that mtEve is the sole ancestor in her generation of our mitochondrial DNA, because it is true (provided there is no mixing of paternal mitochondrial DNA). So what? Your point is?

She is *not *our sole genetic ancestor in that generation.

Alec
evolutionpages.com
 
I know that you don’ t know what you are talking about based on the scientific errors you keep repeating.
You miss the point. You repeating this is a ‘just-so’ statement. At least you now go on to make an argument. It’s not that hard is it? Although, for the sake of honest debate I note that you’ve dropped your back-flip on claims at mind-reading! 😉 Where you were able to tell people my reasons for posting.
The molecular evidence disallows the possibility of a bottleneck of two individuals in the human lineage.
Excepting that the M-Eve shows a ‘bottleneck’, at a mitochondrial level.

You seem to miss the point of this all; based on the ‘bottleneck’.

a) M-Eve shows us all coming from one ancestor, as far as a mitochondrial legacy
b) there may have been ‘others’ about her, but that does not negate the ‘bottleneck’ because their existence is not part of the chain of life to which we belong.

Look at this, it shows how confused evolutionists can be…
The ME represents that woman whose mitochondrial DNA (with mutations) exists in all the humans now living on Earth. That does not mean that she is our lone woman ancestor. We have ancestors who are not via matrilineal descent. For example, our father’s mother (who did pass on her mitochondrial DNA to her daughters) is an example of an ancestor who is not matrilineal to us. However, she did exist at one time and was probably of the same age as our mother’s mother, who is a matrilineal ancestor of ours and from whom we got our mitochondrial DNA.
talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/mitoeve.html
However although this says that we did not get our mitochondria from our father’s mother, it’s irrelevant, because our father’s mother must, as a descendant also from M-Eve have gotten her mitochondria from M-Eve.

Our father must have got it through his mother’s mother, and so on. Thus it does not matter how many people existed AT THE TIME OF EVE, and as noted she herself would not have been an M-Eve in her own time, she herself, as the M-Eve of all us, in a bottleneck.

Note also, the ‘proof’ for her…
The existence of the Mitochondrial Eve is NOT a theory; it is a mathematical fact (unless something like a multiple-origins theory of human evolution i.e. the human species arose independently in different geographically separated populations, and that the present-day ease of interbreeding is the result of a remarkable convergent evolution, is true. Few people subscribe to the multiple-origins theory, and the Mitochondrial Eve observation is a refutation of multiple-origins).
Ibid.
Note they say it’s a mathematical fact, UNLESS… an intersting ‘conditional’ fact.
 
Excepting that the M-Eve shows a ‘bottleneck’, at a mitochondrial level.

You seem to miss the point of this all; based on the ‘bottleneck’.

a) M-Eve shows us all coming from one ancestor, as far as a mitochondrial legacy
b) there may have been ‘others’ about her, but that does not negate the ‘bottleneck’ because their existence is not part of the chain of life to which we belong.
And your repeating this basic mistake so plainly is my very clear evidence for your ignorance of coalescence theory in general and the mitochondrial Eve concept in particular. The existence of a mitochondrial Eve does NOT show that we all come from a sole ancestor in her generation. Contrary to your erroneous claim, some others about her *do *form part of the chain of life to which we belong - we are descended from her, but also from other women in her generation, some of whom are also likely to be common ancestors of all of us.

Repeat after me: ‘we are descended from mtEve, but also from other women in her generation’. If you write that out 100 times perhaps you’ll begin tio get the point.

You seem somehow incapable of grasping this simple fact.The rest of your argument rests on this elementary confusion of yours and is therefore worthless.

Alec
evolutionpages.com
 
And your repeating this basic mistake so plainly is my very clear evidence for your ignorance of coalescence theory in general and the mitochondrial Eve concept in particular. The existence of a mitochondrial Eve does NOT show that we all come from a sole ancestor in her generation.
I’ve continually noted that as far as mitochondria, she is our common ancestor.

Good of you to again to object to an argument I’ve not made :rolleyes:
Contrary to your erroneous claim, some others about her *do *form part of the chain of life to which we belong - we are descended from her, but also from other women in her generation, some of whom are also likely to be common ancestors of all of us.
Not as far as mitochondria. That’s why she’s called Mitochondria Eve because she and she alone is the common ancestor (as far as mitochondria is concerned)
Repeat after me: ‘we are descended from mtEve, but also from other women in her generation’. If you write that out 100 times perhaps you’ll begin tio get the point.
Repeat after me: Argue against what I’ve said, not some fanciful thing.
You seem somehow incapable of grasping this simple fact.
So you keep repeating mantra-like until you believe it. But then your whole objection is based on your own inventions. I’ve already noted too how you make claims about what you think I’m arguing and then refute that.
 
This thread digressed somewhat.

In order to suggest to Rossum the possibility of a common ancestor I cited mitochondrial Eve (M-Eve) who is, as far as mitochondria is concerned, our common ancestor.

Rossum said that this doesn’t prove a ‘bottle-neck’ insofar as the population wasn’t reduced to just a single couple (aka Adam and Eve).

I countered that this objection is irrelevant to the example of M-Eve because no matter how many other people were on the planet, none of them contributed to out mitochondria, in the sense that there’s only one M-Eve

hecd2’s objected with statements about why he thinks I’ve posted what I’ve done, and an objection to a perceived stance where I am (according to him) saying that M-Eve is the common ancestor of us all, which is not my position.

Most recently I repeated this (emphasis now added as it seems to have been missed)
40.png
Montalban:
M-Eve shows us all coming from one ancestor, as far as a mitochondrial legacy
To which he’s repeated his objection; straw-manning my argument to be one of total ancestory, per se.

I hope to get back to the OP (see below, my attempt)
 
The Pope says that there’s evidence for evolution.

For most of the life of the church we’ve had many Church Fathers say that we were created.

Evolution involves no creation. You may wish to believe in God, but there’s nothing in evolution to show that he is at work there.

That’s the basis for evolution as it is currently taught.

But science can suggest a creator, such as through the hypothesis that the universe is ‘fit’ for life
members.iinet.net/~sejones/PoE/pe06env2.html#nvrnmntftnsfnvrsfrlf

The idea is bascially that there’s so many systems in place that it could not have happened by random; e.g.
Our earht’s tilt allows for the seasons.
The moon helps stablilise the earth, so we don’t over-tilt
Major planets in the outer-solar system prevent many objects hitting the earth - Jupiter draws them into its atmosphere - thus these planets are like sentinels.
 
In order to suggest to Rossum the possibility of a common ancestor I cited mitochondrial Eve (M-Eve) who is, as far as mitochondria is concerned, our common ancestor.
The existence of M-Eve (which I do not dispute) is completely and utterly irrelevant to the possibility of a single common ancestor. If we go back for enough generations, then there are only two kinds of people alive - those who are the ancestors of all humans currently alive and those who are not the ancestors of any humans currently alive. That is just a mathematical artefact of the fact that we have two parents and on average have more than two children. The case of M-Eve is just one example of this, it is just that we can work out when she lived because of the way m-DNA is transmitted.

You are using correct science, M-Eve, to support an unjustified deduction about early population sizes.
Rossum said that this doesn’t prove a ‘bottle-neck’ insofar as the population wasn’t reduced to just a single couple (aka Adam and Eve).
Correct.
I countered that this objection is irrelevant to the example of M-Eve because no matter how many other people were on the planet, none of them contributed to out mitochondria, in the sense that there’s only one M-Eve.
Yes, she is the sole contributor to our m-DNA. That has nothing to do with any genetic bottleneck in the human population. You are trying to link two concepts that are not linked. The data on population bottlenecks is derived from allele frequencies in modern populations and on mutations rates. That data is different from the data and logic used to establish M-Eve because it covers the entire genome, not just the 1% of m-DNA. The phrase “genetic bottleneck” refers to the minimum population size at any one time, and has nothing to do with M-Eve.

rossum
 
The existence of M-Eve (which I do not dispute) is completely and utterly irrelevant to the possibility of a single common ancestor.
Directly, this is true, but by implication we can see the possibility of a single ancestor, for as far as M-Eve is concerned, all the diverse people on the planet are inheritors of her mitochondria.
 
Directly, this is true, but by implication we can see the possibility of a single ancestor,
There is no such implication.

You are trying to use the existence of M-Eve to imply something that the facts will not support. Different facts, on the number of different alleles at various points in the human genome, show that there was no population bottleneck of two, or eight, in the last 70,000 years. The lowest fugure I have seen is 1,000 breeding pairs though the more common figure is 10,000 breeding pairs. Both of these figures are associated with the Toba eruption.
for as far as M-Eve is concerned, all the diverse people on the planet are inheritors of her mitochondria.
We all agree with this.

rossum
 
There is no such implication.
Perhaps I worded this wrong. I suggest that because we can conceive of a single contributor to the worlds mitochondria, it is possible to also conceive of a single female ancestor - which was I recall one of of the objections to a real biblical Eve.
We all agree with this.

rossum
I’ve just spent a week arguing against you and others on this! 🤷
 
After wasting my time for some while in arguing against M-Eve I hope we can return to the OP. I’ve already bumped this subject forward but no one wants to touch it.
 
And God just decided to place a soul in an ape-like creature to make it human? I thought the soul came into being at conception (according to Catholic belief)
I wonder if Adam and Eve were Neanderthral or Cro-Magnon.🤷
 
Do any of the evolutionists here realize how hard they are working to try to reconcile beilef in God with the current evolutionary dogma? I wonder if you realize who ridiculous it sounds to hear about homo habilis, homo erectus and homo sexual, or whatever imaginary creature your are referring to in whatever imaginary age. It all sounds very scientific to the gullible, but it is pure B.S.

The story keeps changing. The “missing links” keep being exposed as composits, labratory created frauds, or extinct pigs.

Why is there such hysteria to get others to believe this nonsense? For hundreds of years, the leaders of the Church believed in Creation by a Creator. Now, we find that they have been mistaken? They Bible is in error. Science has shown us the truth, or at least the current truth.

Imagine an American plane flying of Germany during World War Two. It is being shot at by German planes, and maybe FLAK from the ground. Small bits of metal begin striking the plane. They cause small variation in the airfoil of the wing. They remove a piece of metal from the engine. Another takes a piece out of the fuselage. By the time the plane gets back to friendly territory, the random impacts of the bullets and anti-aircraft shells have modified it into a jet fighter.

Does that sound believeable? Well, how about an animal that reproduces. It’s progeny is affected by random mutation. Over many generations this goes on. Eventually, the dinosaur becomes a bird. How’s that for a crazy story.

Or maybe some kind of ape like creature. Random mutations over many generations cause it to become a human being!! How can anyone believe this nonsense? I know that I don’t.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top