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pathia
Guest
His voice carries the power of God, it a command, a statement of power. Someone else doing the same thing will not carry power behind it unless a miracle occurs.
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JReducation
Guest
But the interesting thing about this story is that there was no miracle. The crowd did not know who Jesus was. They knew he was the son of a carpenter who was a Nazarene. We don’t even know if the woman knew his name. She doesn’t call him by his name. She addresses him as Sir.
From their point of view, this was just a man. A man who cared about this woman enough to take his chances with an angry crowd and who challenged them. He dared to say, “Throw the first stone if you have no sin.”
From the woman’s point of view this was a man who saved her life. For all she knew, he could have wanted something from her. Instead, all he says “I don’t condemn you either.” He shows her love. This is the essence of love, not to condemn someone.
Then he uses a very interesting word, SIN. “Go and sin no more.” Obviously, he does not think highly of her actions or her lifestyle. He refers to it as a SIN.
Yet, he saves her life and shows her great compassion by putting his life at risk for her. They could have stoned him with her. They were trying to comply with the law. What he was doing was considered an obstruction of justice.
When somene goes this far for someone who has committed a sin, there is real love here. There is no greater love than to risk your life for someone else.
Yet, the same man who risked his life for her, called her lifestyle a SIN. This is a horrible word, even today. In essence he said, “The way that you live is wrong.”
He did not love her lifestyle, nor did he love the cruel punishment that the authorities wanted to impose on her. Yet, he put his life between her and the authorities.
That’s loving the sinner and hating the sin.
Many men and women through history have done this over and over again. Google Maximilian Kolbe. You’ll find him interesting. He’s one of our friars.
I hope this helps.
Fraternally,
JR
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RobertLGarrett
Guest
Rachel,
Just as the desire to kill someone does not make one a murderer, the desire for same-sex relations or adultery does not make the person an active homosexual or an adulterer. The difference between those who have the desire and those who commit the sin is only self-control. We love the person, despite their desire or compulsion to sin. We all suffer from concupiscence. We all have some sort of desire which is disordered in the eyes of God. This is why we must love our neighbor, but still hate the sin.
Due to our fallen nature, we often equate action with person, but that is not the way God sees us, and it is not the way we are supposed to see others. This is the challenge we all have. This is why Jesus’ teaching is so difficult.
Pax Christi,
Robert
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JReducation
Guest
What Robert says is very true. If you stop and think about it, homosexuals are as deserving of our love as any other person who struggles with some kind of temptation. In fact, our hearts should go out to them.
Just think about it for a moment. Who in their right mind wakes up one morning and says “I’m gong to be gay or lesbian.” This kind of choice brings on all kinds of negative attention and dangers, least but not last, having more thant 80% of the Catholics on CAF damn you to hell and tell you that there is no room for you in their heart or in their Church, even though the Church says something else. I hate to put it this way, but it’s real. I’ve seen it happen here.
If Catholics can turn on you and be cruel and cold, what about the rest of the world that has no moral upbringing or that does not share the Catholic restraint? Why would you want to bring this upon yourself when you could be part of the mainstream and get married, have 2.3 kids, a house, two cars, a dog and many credit cards?
These people live with an attraction that they discover within themselves, an attraction that causes pain and suffering if others know about it. It can lead to loss of family and friends. It can lead to great loneliness. It can even lead to death if one gives in to one’s promiscuous inclinations.
Such a person is suffering, even when they’re smiling. When they go out and rattle and make noises about their rights, it’s really more a catharsis than a real political rant. These persons feel cut off from the mainstream of society.
Christ loves those who are cut off from the mainstream. He wants to save them. This is what the Church calls us to do. To love them and welcome them into our parishes, our prayer life, our community projects, even dinner. The Church does not ask us to endorse gay marriage or gay sex.
But she does ask us to follow her example. Last month the Church asked the nations of the world to decriminalize homosexuality. The Holy Father said that criminalization of homosexuality is contrary to the Gospel message and morally unjustifiable. He remembered how Hitler killed over one million gay people for no reason at all. He said that this was just as unjustifiable as the killing of six million Jews.
This is the kind of love that the Church wants us to practice. The Holy Father’s statement is about a Human Ecology where we put people into proper perspective.
If we want to save the planet, how much more so should we want to save man from himself. That was his message. All creatures are ordered for a specific purpose. Male and female are not an exception, even though society thinks that’s an archaic way of thinking. That was also in his message. Therefore, homosexual sex has no place in the plan of creation and homosexual people need our help. That was his message. It was not a message against people, but for people. He did not condemn their sexual attraction. He tried to put sexual intercourse in its proper place, between male and female. He was not talking about attraction, but about humanity.
It was a message of love for the sinner, despite the sin. Robert is very right. Everyone struggles with some thing. But we can’t condemn and stop loving, because another person struggles. Who is going to love us when we struggle?
JR
Just think about it for a moment. Who in their right mind wakes up one morning and says “I’m gong to be gay or lesbian.” This kind of choice brings on all kinds of negative attention and dangers, least but not last, having more thant 80% of the Catholics on CAF damn you to hell and tell you that there is no room for you in their heart or in their Church, even though the Church says something else. I hate to put it this way, but it’s real. I’ve seen it happen here.
If Catholics can turn on you and be cruel and cold, what about the rest of the world that has no moral upbringing or that does not share the Catholic restraint? Why would you want to bring this upon yourself when you could be part of the mainstream and get married, have 2.3 kids, a house, two cars, a dog and many credit cards?
These people live with an attraction that they discover within themselves, an attraction that causes pain and suffering if others know about it. It can lead to loss of family and friends. It can lead to great loneliness. It can even lead to death if one gives in to one’s promiscuous inclinations.
Such a person is suffering, even when they’re smiling. When they go out and rattle and make noises about their rights, it’s really more a catharsis than a real political rant. These persons feel cut off from the mainstream of society.
Christ loves those who are cut off from the mainstream. He wants to save them. This is what the Church calls us to do. To love them and welcome them into our parishes, our prayer life, our community projects, even dinner. The Church does not ask us to endorse gay marriage or gay sex.
But she does ask us to follow her example. Last month the Church asked the nations of the world to decriminalize homosexuality. The Holy Father said that criminalization of homosexuality is contrary to the Gospel message and morally unjustifiable. He remembered how Hitler killed over one million gay people for no reason at all. He said that this was just as unjustifiable as the killing of six million Jews.
This is the kind of love that the Church wants us to practice. The Holy Father’s statement is about a Human Ecology where we put people into proper perspective.
If we want to save the planet, how much more so should we want to save man from himself. That was his message. All creatures are ordered for a specific purpose. Male and female are not an exception, even though society thinks that’s an archaic way of thinking. That was also in his message. Therefore, homosexual sex has no place in the plan of creation and homosexual people need our help. That was his message. It was not a message against people, but for people. He did not condemn their sexual attraction. He tried to put sexual intercourse in its proper place, between male and female. He was not talking about attraction, but about humanity.
It was a message of love for the sinner, despite the sin. Robert is very right. Everyone struggles with some thing. But we can’t condemn and stop loving, because another person struggles. Who is going to love us when we struggle?
JR
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rjs1
Guest
Bravo Holy Father!!!
By speaking so clearly you may help save many from following false teachings and immoral lifestyles all the way to hell.
The Scriptures are absolutely clear as to the evil of the homosexual lifestyle. God’s creation of marriage for the safety of children is being viciously attacked on many fronts today.
We need to pray for the Pope and his message to the world.
By speaking so clearly you may help save many from following false teachings and immoral lifestyles all the way to hell.
The Scriptures are absolutely clear as to the evil of the homosexual lifestyle. God’s creation of marriage for the safety of children is being viciously attacked on many fronts today.
We need to pray for the Pope and his message to the world.
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pathia
Guest
Of course, I don’t see a peep on divorce, which is of course a heck of a lot more common than homosexuality. Constantly harping, whining, complaining and screaming and yelling at gays seems alot like trying to treat your stubbed toe when you have a knife embedded in your chest.
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JReducation
Guest
Actually, the Vatican has issued some very positive pastoral statements about both groups, homosexuals and divorced persons. In both cases the Church has promoted a very positive pastoral approach to the needs of both populations and has denounced the immoral behaviours of both populations as well, but has always done it in good taste.
The problem is that you’re on CAF. From my experience here, more than half of the population on CAF is very antagonistic toward gay people, not just same sex marriage or gay sex, but the persons themselves. Every time the Church says something about the sin of homosexual activity, it gets played up very big on this forum.
This is not the case in the Catholic community in real time, as I call it. There is more balance. People do have strong feelings about gay sex and about divorce. The feelings in the average parish about gay sex and gay people are probably the same as that of many Americans, which is unfortunate because the problems that lead to divorce are not always addressed in our society. On the other hand, in the average parish, people are more reserved when they speak about gay people. They may tell you how they feel about them, but they will usually be polite and respectful in their manner of speaking.
I believe that the anonymity of online forums allows people to speak in a manner that often sounds cruel, arrogant and inconsistent with the manner that our Holy Father uses, which is to the point, very professional and respectful at the same time. In these forums, like any other online forums people seem to feel that good taste in expression is unnecessary. I strongy disagree.
There are onlookers who are not Catholic and I certainly want them to see that we do stand for something, but at the same time we are not to be feared. We won’t get in your face and insult you, because you are a sinful human being like the rest of us.
In addition, I think that many of the people on CAF are former Protestants. We can convert from one religion to another, but our culture can often follow us. I’m a convert myself, from Judaism, 35 years ago. But I’m very Jewish in some of my ways. In fundamentalist Protestant communities there is a very strong anti-gay sentiment, which is not representative of the Christian faith, but often follows converts into the Catholic Church. They do not realize it. They do not mean to be cruel. This is the rhetoric with which they grew up.
Catholics, especially are very anti-homosexual sin, but not anti-gay. We know that other Christian communities go to the other extreme of tolerance. Some condone same sex behaviour and divorce-remarriage as morally acceptable options, which Catholics do not.
If you want to see a more balanced view I would recommend the Vatican website www.vatican.va and use their search engine to find what the Church has said on these two subjects: homosexuality and divorce. You’ll be pleasantly surprised at the Church’s interest in offering good pastoral care to both groups, not condemnation.
To close, I will repeat what I have already said in earlier posts. The Holy Father did not condemn, he clarified the role of gender in creation and expressed the need for a human ecology to deal with the issues of same-sex relationships, because these relationships do not fit into the natural plan of salvation history. He never said anyone was going to hell or that the Church does not care about this population. Nor did he want Catholics to assume an antagonistic attitude toward homosexual people. He is concerned about all sin, including antagonism.
I hope this is helpful.
JR
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joshuag
Guest
I didn’t actually find the article either. This is just what they said on EWTN radio yesterday afternoon. It was also the first I had heard of it. Maybe they meant to say they were working on getting it overturned, but I know that they said it had already been done and that same sex partners were already in line to receive marriage licenses again. I was also suprised to hear this. I don’t know. I can’t find anything on it either. I apologize if I miss posted.
Hope everyone has a very merry Christmas.
Glory to God in the highest!
In Christ the King
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eichenb2
Guest
Does “Love the sinner, Hate the sin” sound fair enough??? 
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pathia
Guest
As previously stated in the thread, it doesn’t make sense to me. It’s a logically flawed statement. God’s logic may be beyond ours, but that doesn’t do much, because it’s beyond us.Does “Love the sinner, Hate the sin” sound fair enough???
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eichenb2
Guest
Since no one has ever accused me of being smart, please explain why is it “logically flawed”? Also, can you please explain it in light of “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated”. Finally, as a non-Catholic, why does it seems that Catholics are soooo hesitant to condemn homosexual attraction as, at least, disordered, and homosexual acts as evil in the eyes of the Lord???
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RobertLGarrett
Guest
I already explained to you why it is not a logically flawed statement. We are not defined by our actions.
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pathia
Guest
Your explanation made no sense to me.
We are a sum of our thoughts, deeds and actions. Therefore, we are a sum of our good deeds and sins. Sins are part of what we are, thus if you hate the sin, you hate the person by default.Since no one has ever accused me of being smart, please explain why is it “logically flawed”? Also, can you please explain it in light of “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated”. Finally, as a non-Catholic, why does it seems that Catholics are soooo hesitant to condemn homosexual attraction as, at least, disordered, and homosexual acts as evil in the eyes of the Lord???
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RobertLGarrett
Guest
We’re not. The Catechism is clear…clearer than the varied Protestant viewpoints.Since no one has ever accused me of being smart, please explain why is it “logically flawed”? Also, can you please explain it in light of “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated”. Finally, as a non-Catholic, why does it seems that Catholics are soooo hesitant to condemn homosexual attraction as, at least, disordered, and homosexual acts as evil in the eyes of the Lord???
Catechism of the Catholic Church:
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Dauphin
Guest
Long live Pope Benedict XVI!
Generations from now, it will be said that at least one major voice forcefully proclaimed the truth.
Generations from now, it will be said that at least one major voice forcefully proclaimed the truth.
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pathia
Guest
If that were all that was ever asked of me, I’d eat my hat. I am celibate and people will always, “Well, you did that so easily, why don’t you just work at making yourself straight now?”
How about NO I tried that for over a decade, it made a complete ruin of my life. If I explain this to them, they go right back to treating me like a pervert, an alien, shun me, mock me or just outright spite me just for the heck of it, because I didn’t want to do what they thought best for me.
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RobertLGarrett
Guest
Well, I’m sorry you didn’t understand it. Why didn’t you say something?
The problem with your logic, is that your premise is false by God’s standards. We are not the sum of our thoughts, deeds and actions. We are all of equal human dignity, made in the image of God. This is why we can hate the sin of murder, but still love the murderer (though that is really, really hard for many of us flawed human beings). While he is a murderer (describes his action), he is no different in God’s eyes than you and I - fallen human who gave into concupiscence.
Now, there are consequences for our sinful thoughts, deeds and actions, because we separate us from God by doing them. This is where self-control/self-mastery come into play. We are all supposed to turn away from sin and turn towards God in love. Because the murderer is not the sum of his thoughts, deeds and actions, he may also turn away from sin and become a saint. This is why we must love him.
Now…insert any sin in place of murder, and you will hopefully understand why we can love the sinner and hate the sin.
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eichenb2
Guest
:ehh: WHAT??? That is the exact implication of the statement. “love the sinner, hate the sin”. Your response is BIZZARRO! Are you sure you didn’t mean that the statement is philosophically flawed? Your response is typical, though. Why such fear of labelling homosexual inclinations as disordered and homosexual actions as “grave matter” or “mortal” sin (which may turn out badly in the after-life). For a man to experience lust for a woman (not his wife) is wrong, but at least it is natural. For a man to feel lust when looking at another man is disordered and UNNATURAL. If you want to be loving toward professed homosexuals, let them know, clearly, that homosexual attraction is unnatural and homosexual activity is mortal sin. This is puzzling!!
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Neil_Anthony
Guest
Well here are some examples of someone hating a sin but loving the sinner:
John Paull II forgives the person who tried to murder him. Obviously he didn’t like that sin, but he still tried to love the sinner. His love for the sinner was not confused by anyone with condoning what the sinner had done.
Someone who prays outside abortion clinics for an and to abortion, and if the woman still goes in for an abortion, the person is still more than willing to non-judgementally refer them to a place that helps women with post-abortive counselling, because they know about the pain women can go through after an abortion.
A parent whose child is using drugs. They hate that their child is using drugs, because its destroying their child. They hate it all the more, because they love their child so much. Here, the more they love their child, the more they hate the sin.
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RobertLGarrett
Guest
The fact that people treated you poorly and expected more from you than God expects is no reason to be mad at the Church as a whole. If you and your partner of nine years constitute a “disinterested friendship,” then it sounds like you are on the right track. However, I don’t know your situation, and I’m not ordained. You would need to talk to an orthodox priest who really understands Church teaching on these matters.
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