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RobertLGarrett
Guest
Then you aren’t reading. I am very clear with homosexually oriented people that the desire is disordered and the acts are mortal sin. I’m not sure whose posts you are reading, but they aren’t mine.
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eichenb2
Guest
My mistake. Please forgive me 
I misunderstood your e-mail. I said that noone ever accused me of being smart 
By the way, I truly feel for those who have homosexual tendencies. I have had heterosexual friends who had sex addiction and destroyed their family. Concupiscense is a problem for all, I guess. 
I misunderstood your e-mail. I said that noone ever accused me of being smart By the way, I truly feel for those who have homosexual tendencies. I have had heterosexual friends who had sex addiction and destroyed their family. Concupiscense is a problem for all, I guess.
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pathia
Guest
I have an intense distrust of priests and they cause me to have panic attacks, some of the pains in my life were caused by them. This thread is not really the place to discuss them.
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RobertLGarrett
Guest
No problem, I can see how my initial response to pathia could have been misconstrued.My mistake. Please forgive me
And, yes, concupiscence is something we all have. Dealing with our disordered desires, no matter what they constitute - lust, greed, etc. - is a struggle we all have to deal with. With God’s grace we can overcome it…there is no way to do it on your own.
Pax Christi,
Robert
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RobertLGarrett
Guest
I know…I keep you in my prayers. I can see how it would be very difficult to overcome your distrust, and I understand how that distrust may keep you distanced from the Church. It breaks my heart.
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Black_Dog
Guest
As a would be convert to Catholicism…well, Christianity, I find this whole subject deeply problematical.
My niece is gay and lives with her partner. It would be hard to meet a more loving, generous and compassionate couple. I love them both dearly. They are trying to understand why I am moved to becoming a Catholic. They dont criticise me, they dont rant at me…they just love and support me. I’m finding it increasingly difficult to criticise their true affection and love for each other…because it is exactly that. What they have together is what most heterosexual couples only dream of. I am totally at a loss.
My niece is gay and lives with her partner. It would be hard to meet a more loving, generous and compassionate couple. I love them both dearly. They are trying to understand why I am moved to becoming a Catholic. They dont criticise me, they dont rant at me…they just love and support me. I’m finding it increasingly difficult to criticise their true affection and love for each other…because it is exactly that. What they have together is what most heterosexual couples only dream of. I am totally at a loss.
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Neil_Anthony
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You don’t have to criticize it! You can become catholic and treat them with the same kindness and respect as always.
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RobertLGarrett
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I know people get angry at these comparisons, but I don’t know any other way to get the point across…
If it were your niece and her brother, and “it would be hard to meet a more loving, generous and compassionate couple,” would you still be struggling with the question?
If it were your niece and a 10-year-old boy, and “it would be hard to meet a more loving, generous and compassionate couple,” would it cause you pause?
My point is not that these are all equivalent - only that there are things that are sinful, regardless of how loving, generous and compassionate the sinners are.
As a Catholic, you are not called to condemn them as people, but to call their relationship the equivalent of a Marriage would be dishonest. Continue to study Church teaching, pray and reflect.
Pax Christi,
Robert
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RobertLGarrett
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Black_Dog
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I know what you’re trying to say but really you could have said “your niece and a pig”…that would have been offensive! I’m willing to admit that perhaps I have been desensitized to the idea of gay relationships but I’m still confused. They have what I have never been able to achieve with a partner.They are everything God must intend for a loving couple…apart that is from the bloody obvious… at least you didnt state they were possessed by the devil.Black_Dog,
And what Neil said.
Pax Christi,
Robert
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Kevin42
Guest
There is nothing wrong in itself with the affection and love they share. As others have said, the only problem would be calling this partnership a marriage (or the equivalent of one) and any sexual relations that may occur. Besides that though, love is perfectly good so long as it is chaste. If they could live together as sisters, and remain chaste, that would be quite wonderful and praiseworthy. Peace and good.
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theistgal
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Hmm. I know you meant well, Robert; however, I don’t think it’s really fair to compare adult homosexuals living together, to people committing incest or child abusers.
Perhaps a better example would be - how would you treat your niece who remarried outside the Church? That’s a more comparable situation, because it’s someone you love who married someone she shouldn’t have. You can disapprove of the situation but still love your niece and her partner.
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RobertLGarrett
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How else would you recommend I make my point? I’m open to suggestions. As long as people equate outward appearances and genuine love that can be felt between any two humans with a lack of sin, I don’t know how to break that view.
Anyway, I am glad you got my point, and, of course they aren’t possessed by the devil! My wife and I were using artificial birth control for years and had a very loving relationship…we were in a sinful relationship from that standpoint, despite the incredible love in our relationship. Thankfully, we were able to accept the true teaching of the Church and turn away from that sin. That isn’t nearly as difficult as turning away from a strong desire for someone of the same sex, but it is a similar situation from a sin standpoint.
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RobertLGarrett
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Yes, you are right, and that is a good suggestion. However, in the case of someone who is divorced/remarried, they can correct that situation and maintain their relationship. You can’t do that in the case of a homosexual relationship (or incest or pedophilia).
And, to be fair, I stated directly that those situations are not equivalent. The only similarity in the scenarios was the fact that they are sinful and have the illusion of goodness.
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Black_Dog
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thank you Robert…I appreciate your candour. I pray that you and your wife have a wonderful Christmas.
God bless
Kevin
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St_Gregory
Guest
Can I ask:
What is the position of males who are homosexual (but still chaste) who want to be Priests?
The CCC (2358) states: “Every sign of unjust discrimination [against homosexuals] should be avoided.”
— By this, I would have thought that homosexuals have just as much a right to pursue a Priestly vocation as heterosexuals; but from what I’ve heard it sounds like the Church is not so keen on ordaining homosexuals - which sounds somewhat irrational since both homosexuals and heterosexual priests must stay chaste anyway.
What do you think?
What is the position of males who are homosexual (but still chaste) who want to be Priests?
The CCC (2358) states: “Every sign of unjust discrimination [against homosexuals] should be avoided.”
— By this, I would have thought that homosexuals have just as much a right to pursue a Priestly vocation as heterosexuals; but from what I’ve heard it sounds like the Church is not so keen on ordaining homosexuals - which sounds somewhat irrational since both homosexuals and heterosexual priests must stay chaste anyway.
What do you think?
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JReducation
Guest
What Robert Garrett tried to explain before is perfectly correct. Let’s break it down into bullets. Sometimes that helps. The official position of the Church on homosexuality is as follows.
I hope this helps.
**Merry **Christmas,
JR :christmastree1:
- Homosexual orientation is not a choice; therefore, it is not a sin. Any attraction, homosexual or heterosexual is not a sin.
- To look at someone with lust, either a homosexual or heterosexual is a sin, because it is a choice. I can be attracted to Martians, but I cannot intentionally fantasize about them in a sexual manner. The key word is intentionally. We’re not speaking about fleeting thoughts that pass our minds every day about different things or when you suddenly find yourself day dreaming through no choice of your own. This is what Scripture is speaking about as well when it mentions looking at a woman with lust. The Church has clarified by adding the word intentionally to that citation.
- Homosexual orientation is a condition that the Church labels as contrary to natural law, but does not give a medical or psychological label to.
- The Church does not give it a label, because as the Catechism says, no one really knows the cause. The jury is still out. It is not the Church’s job to jump and make a diagnosis.
- The Church does condemn sex between two people of the same gender.
- She says that it can never be morally acceptable, regardless of the cause.
- She says that objectively it constitutes a grave sin.
- The Church always speaks objectively about sin. She cannot speak about each individual case. That would be to speak subjectively.
- The Church never speaks subjectively in matters of morals. That she leaves to the individual and their confessor and spiritual director to determine the level of culpability.
- The Church defends the right of homosexual people to be treated as members of the Christian community and to receive the sacraments.
- When homosexual people sin, like everyone else, they have the same right to approach the sacraments of Confession and Eucharist in search of grace to stay the course of chastity.
- The Church does not demand that homosexual people become heterosexual. Individuals who have no authority in the Church make those claims, not the the Magisterium.
- The Church teaches that because homosexual people cannot validly contract marriage they have a vocation to a celibate life.
- The Church mandates that Catholics, especially clergy, make sure that homosexual people get the spiritual and social support they need so that they will not suffer isolation.
- Isolation often leads a homosexual person to seek love in a partner. It is important that we help these people by including them in our community life.
- This past week the church added another demand to its teachings on homosexuality. It is morally unjustifiable to call homosexual acts a crime. Every nation of the world must cease and desist with criminal charges and punishment against homosexual people.
- The civil laws that govern public decency should be the same for homosexuals and heterosexuals, said the Holy Father. You cannot punish a person for being gay. That is a new form of Naziism, which the Church condemns as grave sin against humanity.
I hope this helps.
**Merry **Christmas,
JR :christmastree1:
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Torroidial
Guest
He’s a mensch…
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eichenb2
Guest
Hmmm. Let’s see. Incest = Grave Matter & Mortal Sin ?
Child Abuse = Grave Matter & Mortal Sin?
Adults with Homosexual tendencies (remember sexual identity is not our only identity
) living together = Grave matter & Mortal SinIf my calculations are correct, the analogy seems fair. Should the analogy not be used being it hurts feelings. Well, unfortunately, the truth can hurt
. I’m pretty sure God’s destruction of Sodom & Gomorrah hurt more that feelings. By the way, this is how the culture at-large was changed in USA. They changed the meaning of words and beliefs follow. My message to people who have these tendencies (just like all mortal sinners) is to struggle against this tendency as if your eternal life depended on it 
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RobertLGarrett
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Hi Kevin,
Thank you, and Merry Christmas to you and your entire family (including the aforementioned niece and “significant other”).
Pax Christi,
Robert
P.S. I don’t treat my cousin and her significant other with anything but love, even though I don’t consider their relationship equivalent to marriage. We don’t generally discuss the sinfulness of homosexual acts, but if they were to ask, I would be honest about our beliefs and still love them just the same. Just as a non-married, heterosexual couple though I will ask them to stay at a hotel if they come to visit.
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