Pope Benedict criticizes homosexual behavior

[RobertLGarrett]

Hmmm. Let’s see. Incest = Grave Matter & Mortal Sin ?
Child Abuse = Grave Matter & Mortal Sin?
Adults with Homosexual tendencies (remember sexual identity is not our only identity ) living together = Grave matter & Mortal Sin

If my calculations are correct, the analogy seems fair. Should the analogy not be used being it hurts feelings. Well, unfortunately, the truth can hurt . I’m pretty sure God’s destruction of Sodom & Gomorrah hurt more that feelings. By the way, this is how the culture at-large was changed in USA. They changed the meaning of words and beliefs follow. My message to people who have these tendencies (just like all mortal sinners) is to struggle against this tendency as if your eternal life depended on it

Exactly.

There is an important distinction regarding the way I would treat the “couple” though. While I can tolerate a homosexual couple in the same manner that I would tolerate a couple living together or in an invalid marriage, I would not tolerate an incestuous couple and I would be thoroughly disgusted by a pedophiliac relationship.

 

[cathgal]

Did you read what has been said several times on this thread? The Pope never said what they allege he said about homosexuals. He never even mentioned the term homosexual in his talk.

His talk was about Creation and the order of creation. He went on to talk about gender, marriage and the order that the Creator wanted to instill in the world through the genders and marriage. He then moved on to talk about how man wants to do things his way without God and how man needs to be saved.

He said that if we are so concerned about the planet, how much more should we be about humanity.

The inferrence to homosexuality was made because of his statement regarding the sanctity of human sexuality.

Why are we still discussing what the Pope did NOT say? He did not condemn anyone. He condemned man’s attempt to rewrite the rules of nature and he promoted the need for a human ecology.

Read the article in the Pope’s own words, not what the press reports he said. Because it’s media hype.

It’s not fair to the Pope or to the gay community to put a wedge between them and the Pope. There is nothing to gain here by doing that.

We know what the Church teaches on this subject. She is very clear in the CCC. Being a homosexual is not a sin. Homosexual actions are a sin.

The same is true about being a heterosexual. Heterosexual activity outside of marriage is also a sin.

The Church recognizes that these people have a cross to live with and wants to support them and wants you and me to support them.

She also recognizes the difference betweeen a sinful act and a physical attraction that is not the fault of the individual.

Let’s stop debating about something that someone says the Pope said. Let’s look at what he did say. It’s much bigger than homosexuality.

JR

The Pope is very charitable in his speech. He may not use the term to p(name removed by moderator)oint but the message is very clear and that’s the whole point.

Regardless how charitable the Pope is in his speech, you think it makes a difference with the homosexual advocates and communities. Sinners still love their sins

As long as you say that their same-sex relationship is wrong, destructive, and however you put it, they will never like you.

 

[Kevin42]

The Pope is very charitable in his speech. He may not use the term to p(name removed by moderator)oint but the message is very clear and that’s the whole point.

Regardless how charitable the Pope is in his speech, you think it makes a difference with the homosexual advocates an community. Sinners still love their sins

As long as you say that their same-sex relationship is wrong, destructive, and however you put it, they will never like you.

I’m not sure that this is a healthy way to look at the situation. Everyone is a sinner, so does that mean that everyone dislikes like the Pope when he speaks out against sinfulness? I am sure it doesn’t. In the same manner, I would think that for many people living a gay lifestyle, if they heard the Pope’s full message without the media spin, they could appreciate it. Given time, I am sure some of them may even convert.

Peace and good.

 

[RobertLGarrett]

Can I ask:
What is the position of males who are homosexual (but still chaste) who want to be Priests?

The CCC (2358) states: “Every sign of unjust discrimination [against homosexuals] should be avoided.”
— By this, I would have thought that homosexuals have just as much a right to pursue a Priestly vocation as heterosexuals; but from what I’ve heard it sounds like the Church is not so keen on ordaining homosexuals - which sounds somewhat irrational since both homosexuals and heterosexual priests must stay chaste anyway.

What do you think?

Hi St Gregory,

We had this explained to us (at a KofC meeting) by a representative from our local seminary - Mt Angel Abbey . You are correct that from a logical standpoint a chaste heterosexual and chaste homosexual would be equivalent as far as priests go. However, the Church has had an understandable shift in their screening process since the scandals.

Since 80% were cases of homosexual ephobophilia (sp?) - relationship between an adult male and a post-pubescent male, they are more careful to screen for the maturity of the potential priest. If they have strong, homosexual desires or strong, heterosexual desires that show a lack of sexual maturity (i.e. lack of self-mastery/self-control), then they will not be accepted. If I recall correctly, in the case of homosexual desires, they are even more stringent because of the fact that it is a disordered desire.

JReducation may be able to give some further insight here.

Pax Christi,
Robert

 

[JReducation]

The Pope is very charitable in his speech. He may not use the term to p(name removed by moderator)oint but the message is very clear and that’s the whole point.

Regardless how charitable the Pope is in his speech, you think it makes a difference with the homosexual advocates and communities. Sinners still love their sins

As long as you say that their same-sex relationship is wrong, destructive, and however you put it, they will never like you.

But the Pope sets the standard for how we are to speak on these issues. We should model our own speech and action on his.

Last week he also denounced all those countries that have anti-gay laws and said they must cease to exist. He said those laws leave open the door for crimes against humanity, just like the Nazis committed against one million homosexual people.

The Pope is very balanced. It is we who are not balanced.

From what I read and heard yesterday in the news, the centre in the homosexual community expressed only one concern over the Pope’s statement. They were afraid that some would interpret it as a license to gay bash or worse. That’s not an unreasonable statement. They did not condemn the Pope.

Extremists on either side are always going to condemn. Those who want the Pope’s approval of gay sex and those who want the Pope to excommunicate every gay person who walks the earth will have a loud opinion on this statement. But the Church doesn’t worry about the extremists. She is more attentive to the Centre. The voice of the centre was reasonable. The bishops will certainly be watching out to make sure that Catholics do not engage in gay bashing or abusive treatment of homosexual people and so should we. This is not the intention of the Church.

Fraternally,

JR

 

[eichenb2]

1. Isolation often leads a homosexual person to seek love in a partner. It is important that we help these people by including them in our community life.
2. This past week the church added another demand to its teachings on homosexuality. It is morally unjustifiable to call homosexual acts a crime. Every nation of the world must cease and desist with criminal charges and punishment against homosexual people.
3. The civil laws that govern public decency should be the same for homosexuals and heterosexuals, said the Holy Father. You cannot punish a person for being gay. That is a new form of Naziism, which the Church condemns as grave sin against humanity.
   JR :christmastree1:

WOW! This is, amazingly, disappointing. I see the shore erosion just in reading item 15, 16, & 17. I predict the Catholic Church will be allowed sacramental marriages of people who call themselves homosexual soon; probably in my lifetime. I may have to reconsider my consideration to become catholic .

 

[Dauphin]

WOW! This is, amazingly, disappointing. I see the shore erosion just in reading item 15, 16, & 17. I predict the Catholic Church will be allowed sacramental marriages of people who call themselves homosexual soon; probably in my lifetime. I may have to reconsider my consideration to become catholic .

Don’t believe everything you read on these forums. In principle, there’s nothing wrong with outlawing sodomy, and it has been done in many Catholic nations.

There’s no erosion in Catholic teaching. It has contained an unambiguous condemnation of homosexual behavior, and always will. How society should deal with it in the law is a matter open for debate, and every Catholic is free to believe that sodomy should be outlawed along with public displays of this grave moral depravity.

 

[cathgal]

I’m not sure that this is a healthy way to look at the situation. Everyone is a sinner, so does that mean that everyone dislikes like the Pope when he speaks out against sinfulness?

Does it also mean everyone will like the Pope for speaking out?

See where I’m getting at.

 

[RobertLGarrett]

Don’t believe everything you read on these forums. In principle, there’s nothing wrong with outlawing sodomy, and it has been done in many Catholic nations.

There’s no erosion in Catholic teaching. It has contained an unambiguous condemnation of homosexual behavior, and always will.

There isn’t an erosion of Catholic teaching, but you are incorrect regarding the outlawing of sodomy.
ewtn.com/vnews/getstory.asp?number=92736

The Holy See said the declaration goes beyond the goal of “rightful condemnation of and protection from all forms of violence against homosexual persons,” and instead “gives rise to uncertainty in the law and challenges existing human rights norms.”

"The Holy See continues to advocate that every sign of unjust discrimination toward homosexual persons should be avoided and urges states to do away with criminal penalties against them," the Holy See statement concluded.

Homosexuality is against the law in several dozen U.N. member states, and in some cases, can even be punished by execution.

This is consistent with teaching in the Catechism. It is also consistent with the fact that not all sins are considered criminal. At the same time, the Holy See has some issues with the UN declaration mentioned in the article.

 

[cathgal]

Last week he also denounced all those countries that have anti-gay laws and said they must cease to exist. He said those laws leave open the door for crimes against humanity, just like the Nazis committed against one million homosexual people.

JR

Denounce all anti-gay laws?

Be careful of where you tread with the ‘all’.

Have you read about UN proposal of the homosexual discrimination. Vatican did not agree.

 

[JReducation]

Hi St Gregory,

We had this explained to us (at a KofC meeting) by a representative from our local seminary - Mt Angel Abbey . You are correct that from a logical standpoint a chaste heterosexual and chaste homosexual would be equivalent as far as priests go. However, the Church has had an understandable shift in their screening process since the scandals.

Since 80% were cases of homosexual ephobophilia (sp?) - relationship between an adult male and a post-pubescent male, they are more careful to screen for the maturity of the potential priest. If they have strong, homosexual desires or strong, heterosexual desires that show a lack of sexual maturity (i.e. lack of self-mastery/self-control), then they will not be accepted. If I recall correctly, in the case of homosexual desires, they are even more stringent because of the fact that it is a disordered desire.

JReducation may be able to give some further insight here.

Pax Christi,
Robert

There is no official ban on homosexual candidates to the priesthood, though the wording of the Holy See is very strong and it is addressed to the Bishops.

In 2005 the Church came out with its official statement on the admission of homosexual people to the priesthood. This does not apply to religious life.

In the light of such teaching, this Dicastery, in accord with the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, believes it necessary to state clearly that the Church, while profoundly respecting the persons in question[9], cannot admit to the seminary or to holy orders those who practise homosexuality, present deep-seated homosexual tendencies or support the so-called “gay culture”.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccatheduc/documents/rc_con_ccatheduc_doc_20051104_istruzione_en.html

The positionis pretty simple and straightforward. This does not exclude all homosexual people. The key word here is “deep-seated”. How involved is the person in the gay lifestyle. That’s up to the bishop or the major superiorof a religioius order to discern.

The goal is to make sure that your candidate can related appropriately to both genders. Therefore, the rule of healthy and mature sexual development must be folllowed.

JR

 

[eichenb2]

Don’t believe everything you read on these forums. In principle, there’s nothing wrong with outlawing sodomy, and it has been done in many Catholic nations.

There’s no erosion in Catholic teaching. It has contained an unambiguous condemnation of homosexual behavior, and always will. How society should deal with it in the law is a matter open for debate, and every Catholic is free to believe that sodomy should be outlawed along with public displays of this grave moral depravity.

In all seriousness, this is a HUGE stumbling block for me. It is not that I don’t feel for people for people with homosexual tendencies. My heart goes out to them. I, myself, struggle with lust for women. I don’t try to justify it though. At least, I am looking at women. After all, God created Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve. While my lust may be sinful, at least it’s natural. It appears from the one of the bulletin points that the Church accepts people struggling with homosexual tendencies living together I would not accept this for my daughter and her boyfriend. My advice to people who call themselves homosexuals is live celibately and don’t get caught in the trap of identifying yourself, as “homosexual”. You are so much more!

 

[Dauphin]

While my lust may be sinful, at least it’s natural. It appears from the one of the bulletin points that the Church accepts people struggling with homosexual tendencies living together

This is absolutely not the case. Only married couples may live together. Any sort of homosexual relationship is gravely sinful, because (at the very least), it places one in the near occasion of sin.

The Church’s teaching on this is as strict as it can be.

 

[graceandglory]

My concern is that the Church would change the criteria of procreation capability and poof, there goes the defense against homosexual marriage. Also, it understand the recent news about the Vatican saying that states should not pass laws against homosexuality. Isn’t the ACTION a grave matter? Isn’t murder also a grave matter? Can states not ban murder???

I totally understand where you are coming from.

Fr. Benedict Groeschel has written an excellent book on this topic.

If you read it, you will be convinced that the Church will never change it’s “stance” because it is unchangeable.

Courage to be Chaste by Fr. Benedict Groeschel
amazon.com/Courage-Be-Chaste-Benedict-Groeschel/dp/0809127059

 

[Dauphin]

There isn’t an erosion of Catholic teaching, but you are incorrect regarding the outlawing of sodomy.
ewtn.com/vnews/getstory.asp?number=92736

This is consistent with teaching in the Catechism. It is also consistent with the fact that not all sins are considered criminal. At the same time, the Holy See has some issues with the UN declaration mentioned in the article.

This is the particular approach the Church is taking at this time. I disagree with it because I believe the state has a responsibility to promote virtue in its citizens, and I still maintain that any Catholic is free to hold that sodomy should be outlawed. This is a position the Church has taken forcefully in the past, so it cannot be contrary to Catholic doctrine.

This is not an issue of a doctrinal nature, so the Magisterium makes no demands of the faithful.

 

[RobertLGarrett]

This is the particular approach the Church is taking at this time. I disagree with it because I believe the state has a responsibility to promote virtue in its citizens, and I still maintain that any Catholic is free to hold that sodomy should be outlawed. This is a position the Church has taken forcefully in the past, so it cannot be contrary to Catholic doctrine.

This is not an issue of a doctrinal nature, so the Magisterium makes no demands of the faithful.

Fair enough. I will stick with the Holy See on this one. I don’t see a value in Sodomy laws. On the other hand, I am firmly against the artificial “rights” that many homosexual people are demanding, such as marriage/“civil union.”

 

[graceandglory]

WOW! This is, amazingly, disappointing. I see the shore erosion just in reading item 15, 16, & 17. I predict the Catholic Church will be allowed sacramental marriages of people who call themselves homosexual soon; probably in my lifetime. I may have to reconsider my consideration to become catholic .

Hate the sin but LOVE THE SINNER.

The Catholic Church considers everyone to be sinners in need of redemption. Those who commit homosexual sin are not labeled by the Church as homosexuals, but sinners. We are not defined by our sins. Otherwise we should all be labeled by our most grievous sins. I’m not telling what my name would be.

I became a Catholic primarily because I wanted to be in a safe place that wasn’t going to budge on this issue. When I was protestant, it seemed that there were only two choices for people. Either get married, or you’re gay.

It’s not like that in the Catholic Church. We have three vocations: Consecrated celibacy, Marriage, or a vocation to singleness, which includes being celibate. Chastity is expected in all vocations by all Catholics.

While you are checking out the Catholic Church, check into the Theology of the Body. John Paul 2 spent several years of his pontificate discoursing on the theology of sexuality as a response to the sexual revolution that the world was going through when he became Pope.

www.christopherwest.com

I suggest you read up. Don’t be afraid to come on over, it’s a good place to be standing on the Rock.

 

[eichenb2]

Hate the sin but LOVE THE SINNER.

The Catholic Church considers everyone to be sinners in need of redemption. Those who commit homosexual sin are not labeled by the Church as homosexuals, but sinners. We are not defined by our sins. Otherwise we should all be labeled by our most grievous sins. I’m not telling what my name would be.

I became a Catholic primarily because I wanted to be in a safe place that wasn’t going to budge on this issue. When I was protestant, it seemed that there were only two choices for people. Either get married, or you’re gay.

It’s not like that in the Catholic Church. We have three vocations: Consecrated celibacy, Marriage, or a vocation to singleness, which includes being celibate. Chastity is expected in all vocations by all Catholics.

While you are checking out the Catholic Church, check into the Theology of the Body. John Paul 2 spent several years of his pontificate discoursing on the theology of sexuality as a response to the sexual revolution that the world was going through when he became Pope.

www.christopherwest.com

I suggest you read up. Don’t be afraid to come on over, it’s a good place to be standing on the Rock.

Thank you. I have not given up my consideration. I think you said it very succinctly; as I also need to know that the Church is not going to budge on this issue. The major problem I have with Protestantism is that they are either radical literalists or razing antinomians, depending the denomination/congregation. I think that Christianity ought to be lived out and I (as a Christian father) ought to teach my children moral guidelines. Homosexual acts are a NO GO and I have to teach them that. I believe this is solid Biblical theology. It does not help when a congregation embraces this as a “lifestyle choice”. This would be akin to confirming thieves in their behavior. By the way, if some says “but I am not hurting anyone”, my response is that you are harming yourself, eternally. Also, you harming society, as you confuse young Christian minds about this issue. Finally, I agree that you are the Church should not see us for our sins. It is the people would feel inclined, by concupiscense, to homosexual acts that want to define themselves this way. When was the that time you heard of an annual Heterosexual Pride parade. I am more that my sexuality . I am sooo much more!!! Thank God!!!

 

[Kevin42]

This is absolutely not the case. Only married couples may live together. Any sort of homosexual relationship is gravely sinful, because (at the very least), it places one in the near occasion of sin.

The Church’s teaching on this is as strict as it can be.

What about a couple who was married outside the Church and does not have a valid marriage, but has children? Continuing, are you suggesting that a person should not have a friendship with anyone of the opposite sex once they are married because it will be under the occasion of sin? I am just curious what your thoughts on these issues are. Peace and good.

 

[Laurent_LUG]

Incest = Grave Matter & Mortal Sin ?

Indeed , a heavy filthy criminal affair !!

                       Child Abuse = Grave Matter & Mortal Sin?

Indeed , a heavy filthy criminal affair !!

                     Adults with Homosexual tendencies (remember sexual identity is not our only identity :thumbsup: ) living together = Grave matter & Mortal Sin

I Disagree , why ??

My personal opinion to this last quote ,
one to remember:
I really do not care who’s hetero- , homosexual or bisexual !!
That’s none of our business , so I say: Live & let die !!

btw: Saving the rainforest , that’s necessary , a must ,
without , (half of) life could go extinct by century’s end !!

Salute & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:
– Laurent LUG (.@…), december 25, 2008