Pope Benedict Reportedly Defrocked 400 Priests in 2 Years

[Viewer]

This is an unacceptable reason. Why dont parents have to comply with the same mandatory reporting obligations that people are screaming for now?
The POLICE are the ones who ought to decide whether there is sufficient evidence,
And if the parents dont find sufficient evidence, and the police dont find sufficient evidence, what are the Church hierarchy supposed to investigate?

The Catholic Church in Newfoundland was so powerful it could and regually did influence the authorities. The Priest was such a powerful figure in society it just wasn’t possible to challenge him, he was always above suspicion.

Reminded by who? Are you asserting that the parents DID believe their child but did not FIRST go to the police? And instead, went to the Church and were told NOT to report the matter? Citation please. Examples with names and places and dates.

On my phone without multiple tab capability here, so it’ll have to wait till I get back home. As I mentioned regarding Newfoundland (and it applies with the Irish Garda too) the Church held considerable clout over all branches of the government. The Church was party to everything, and would call for cases investigating it to be dismissed.

If that WERE true, and the Church was accepted as a defacto arm of government, then the government is complicit in the very things it now seeks to investigate. It cannot then distance itself from or disavow the Church it is attacking.

50 - 60 years ago?

Church leaders in 2014 are being asked to explain why they didnt do more to prevent things which took place in 1954!!!

Not quite. When Ireland eventually did gain it’s independence it was a complete wreck. It was poor, and for matters such as healthcare, education, morality and spiritual guidance it turned to the church, and the church took up this role with enthusiasm.

From the film censorship bureau to the orphanages, the Catholic Church’s influence could be felt everywhere. Up until thirty years ago Ireland had many traits more reminiscent of a Theocracy than a Republic.

The Government existed, but it was weak and believed wholeheartedly that the Church knew best on many matters. I remember from my parents stories of the times when there would be sections removed from foreign papers, or that a film got banned because a girls top was too low (and by low it exposed her neck), or that an individual was forced to leave their hometown after doing something that displeased the Church in Ireland. All the more painful when it started to become clear that the power the government had ceded to the Church has been abused to such an amazing extent.

Why has it taken you 20, 30, 40, 50, 60 years to present evidence to the police and the judiciary?

Better late than never, I guess.

Because we would have been locked up for Blasphemy and/or condemned to a Church-ran institution. I don’t think you quite grasp how much power the Church had there. It wasn’t something you just did on a Sunday and suggested you follow it’s teachings, it took great efforts and pains to actively enforce them via the immense secular powers it wielded ( for instance a single parent had to surrender their offspring to the Church institutions because of the requirement to emulate the Holy Family. How would you feel having officials drag your 5 year old child from your home after your spouse left?). You obeyed, or you wouldn’t eat in some places like Limerick where families were so desperately poor the Church could force them to do whatever it pleased because they were dependent on it for everything.

 

[josie_L]

The Catholic Church in Newfoundland was so powerful it could and regually did influence the authorities. The Priest was such a powerful figure in society it just wasn’t possible to challenge him, he was always above suspicion.

Or was the state just protecting itself, i.e., there was strong incentives, especially monetary, for the government not to look to deeply into the matter (it in many ways contributed to the abuse and thus knew it would be monetarily liable). Moreover, the times to which you refer was a time when society valued authority and those in authority in general, therefore, people like teachers, police officers, doctors. . .etc., were all people to be trusted and valued, as such there are probably many cases of child abuse that have gone under-reported (and the shame of admitting such a thing was enough to keep people quiet).

God bless!

p.s. The situation you described is unique to Ireland, i.e., the Church held a status viz a viz the state which was incomparable (NFLD had/has a heavily Irish/Catholic demographic).

 

[glendab]

This is beginning to deteriorate into mean spirited exchange of bitter remarks rather than a reasoned discussion. I though it might. It usually does.

Please keep in mind were mostly civilized Christians here.

Glenda

 

[Lapey]

Wow, indeed. I had no idea that the numbers of the defrocked–as a result of child abuse–were so high. I, too, can see why Pope Benedict was “mortified” and ultimately decided to step down. There are, I think, two things that were mentioned that the Church really has to address and correct. One is who the Church thinks victims should report abuse to first. Now, the Church wants them to go to the Church hierarchy, instead of criminal authorities. IMHO, the law must be notified first. The second is the punishment and prosecution of those Church authorities who have covered up these crimes. I have a feeling that we will be horrified to see how far up the ladder such cover-ups go. Lord, have mercy on us all…

Where is it written or even unwritten policy that a lay person who hears of such an abuse is told not to go to civil authorities? I went through 5 years of formation and three years of active duty in parish life and I have never heard of the “don’t report abuse to civil authorities” policy.

 

[Cider]

It’s sad that the Church and Pope Benedict had to face this issue but thanks be to God that he took positive action.

 

[Lion_IRC]

This is beginning to deteriorate into mean spirited exchange of bitter remarks rather than a reasoned discussion. I though it might. It usually does.

Please keep in mind were mostly civilized Christians here.

Glenda

Yes, I know exactly the posters to whom you are referring.

WAIT! - No I dont.

Thats what our priests have to put up with when vague insinuations are publically made about what “usually happens”.

Mean-spirited?
Bitter?
A lack of reasoned discussion is what you think usually does eventuate among “mostly civilized Christians”?
You pre-emptively thought it might deteriorate?

 

[ProVobis]

It’s sad that the Church and Pope Benedict had to face this issue but thanks be to God that he took positive action.

400 priests defrocked for abuse? There’s more to the story

Some thoughts on the story that AP broke late Friday afternoon, reporting that Pope Benedict had approved the laicization of nearly 400 priests during the last 2 years of his pontificate:

1.This is only the tip of the iceberg—but not in the way you might think. The AP story covers just 2002 and 2003. But Pope Benedict had been working steadily to purge predators from the ranks of the Catholic clergy. We don’t know the total number of priests defrocked during his pontificate, but it’s probably fair to assume that it is in the thousands, not hundreds. As John Allen observed, the world’s mass-media outlets are belatedly realizing that Benedict XVI was a champion of reform, not of the cover-up, on abuse cases. It will be increasingly difficult to continue serving up the accepted narrative, which suggests that the abuse scandal erupted under Benedict, and he tried to keep the lid on. It didn’t, and he didn’t. Insofar as Pope Francis is a reformer in his field, it’s because he’s continued what Benedict started.
… (more)

 

[NeedsMercy]

According to the notice it is quite clear that it will be immediately reported to the police. I don’t know why you think “it is possible that law enforcement is not notified until later, if at all.” The social worker is a mandatory reporter. He/she MUST report it. Calling the diocese hotline is going to bring in the authorities-- probably very quickly.

Let’s do a little re-reading. You took part of one sentence and made your own context. Read the sentence immediately before the one you’re talking about. I said that "it is possible that law enforcement is not notified until later, if at all” because I do not know the state regulations of each of our 50—count ‘em, 50!—states. That would be like me putting you down for not knowing all the laws of all countries in Europe.

 

[NeedsMercy]

Where is it written or even unwritten policy that a lay person who hears of such an abuse is told not to go to civil authorities? I went through 5 years of formation and three years of active duty in parish life and I have never heard of the “don’t report abuse to civil authorities” policy.

And where exactly did I say that there is a “written or even unwritten policy that a lay person etc…”? Or “don’t report abuse to civil authorities”? I did not say these things at all. I showed all of you the course of action that my Diocese wishes people would take. That’s all. That’s it. Why are some of you jumping on me for something that I obviously did not say? I find it terribly ironic that some of you are getting more angry at me than you are at the priests dismissed for being child molesters. What’s wrong with this picture?

And secondly, Deacon, to draw someone back into a thread after they have politely backed out is well…very, very tacky.

 

[Lion_IRC]

NeedsMercy,

It seems to me from re-reading your posts in this thread that you believe the diocese in question prefers that victims not go to the police first.

…my Diocese does not encourage victims going to the police first.

I think you are quite mistaken in this belief.

The mere existence of a dedicated hotline for victims who want to contact the diocese does not constitute a desire to avoid police involvement on the part of the Church.

Would you consider contacting the diocese yourself directly to seek their clarification?

We certainly dont need cynical members of the Church mistakenly thinking that there is any ongoing cover-up and making vague insinuations about the motive for the hotline.

 

[NeedsMercy]

NeedsMercy,

It seems to me from re-reading your posts in this thread that you believe the diocese in question prefers that victims not go to the police first.

I think you are quite mistaken in this belief.

The mere existence of a dedicated hotline for victims who want to contact the diocese does not constitute a desire to avoid police involvement on the part of the Church.

Would you consider contacting the diocese yourself directly to seek their clarification?

We certainly dont need cynical members of the Church mistakenly thinking that there is any ongoing cover-up and making vague insinuations about the motive for the hotline.

More importantly, we certainly don’t need members of the Church who mistakenly think that they can get away with child abuse and/or cover up that abuse.

 

[Lion_IRC]

More importantly we are all sinners who will be judged - nobody gets away with stuff.

 

[Darryl1958]

We can only hope that Pope Frances continues these kinds of policies, and even doubles down on them more than Obama doubled down on Bush’s drone strikes even.

The first thing that had to be done is to drain the swamp, and ensure that a milieu of homosexual bathhouse culture among the seminaries runs completely dry.
Then with all the predators exposed and as ducks in mud, it becomes time to go on a duck hunt.

 

[GraceSofia]

400 priests defrocked for abuse? There’s more to the story

From the link: Some thoughts on the story that AP broke late Friday afternoon, reporting that Pope Benedict had approved the laicization of nearly 400 priests during the last 2 years of his pontificate:

1.This is only the tip of the iceberg—but not in the way you might think. The AP story covers just 2002 and 2003.

Are the dates just a mistake in the story? I read the AP story and it says, “The statistics for 2011-12 show a dramatic increase over the 171 priests removed in 2008 and 2009, when the Vatican first provided details on the number of priests who have been defrocked. Prior to that, it had only publicly revealed the number of alleged cases of sexual abuse it had received.” Am I missing something about 2002-3?

Read more: nydailynews.com/news/world/pope-benedict-defrocked-400-priests-years-article-1.1583143#ixzz2r1VHHgol

 

[GraceSofia]

And where exactly did I say that there is a “written or even unwritten policy that a lay person etc…”? Or “don’t report abuse to civil authorities”? I did not say these things at all. I showed all of you the course of action that my Diocese wishes people would take. That’s all. That’s it. Why are some of you jumping on me for something that I obviously did not say? I find it terribly ironic that some of you are getting more angry at me than you are at the priests dismissed for being child molesters. What’s wrong with this picture?

And secondly, Deacon, to draw someone back into a thread after they have politely backed out is well…very, very tacky.

Needs Mercy, I don’t know if I can say anything to help. I’ll try.

I showed all of you the course of action that my Diocese wishes people would take. That’s all. That’s it. Why are some of you jumping on me for something that I obviously did not say?

Well, no, that’s not all. You added your opinion. At least 3 people seem to have had the same understanding and posted about it. If you post something on the forum, you must be prepared for people to comment. And what usually happens is that people will respond with an argument. It is much rarer for people to respond with a simple . Or sometimes a comment causes another poster to have a thought and they sort of piggy-back on an earlier comment. What I mean is, if you post, be ready to be disagreed with. If that upsets you, then maybe you want to be very careful what you post. It has helped me immensely to learn to be able to say that I was wrong, or that my post was badly written, and to learn when a post isn’t worth responding to, or worth defending. And also to be open to learning. Believe it or not, I sometimes change my mind on a topic from reading threads.

some of you are getting more angry at me than you are at the priests dismissed for being child molesters.

No, we aren’t. You are interpreting disagreement as anger. It is not. Look, I’m saying this as a Catholic sister because I’ve seen this same thing happen with you before in other threads. Don’t distress yourself so much. :console:

 

[Lapey]

And where exactly did I say that there is a “written or even unwritten policy that a lay person etc…”? Or “don’t report abuse to civil authorities”? I did not say these things at all. I showed all of you the course of action that my Diocese wishes people would take. That’s all. That’s it. Why are some of you jumping on me for something that I obviously did not say? I find it terribly ironic that some of you are getting more angry at me than you are at the priests dismissed for being child molesters. What’s wrong with this picture?

And secondly, Deacon, to draw someone back into a thread after they have politely backed out is well…very, very tacky.

First off my friend, I didn’t “draw you back in”. That would be your need to come back and “correct” us. I commented on an earlier post before I read the one where you decided to bow out.

In the emphasized statement from your post here and going back to your past comments, it is easy to see your statements leading people to think your diocese wants abuse allegations to go to the diocese first, that is not true.

No one is “jumping on you” for something you “obviously” did not say. We were commenting on what you stated and the implications of your statements, they stand for themselves.

Where you make your mistake is in the last statement of the first paragraph; “I find it terribly ironic that some of you are getting more angry at me than you are at the priests dismissed for being child molesters.”

Do you really think we are angry with you??? What’s even more troubling is that you think we are more angry at you, an anonymous internet poster, than predators who abuse children? Really? I’m not sure if you understand this but, we’re on the same team! We just simply corrected your implication which caused negative thoughts or feelings against diocesan staffs and the many many good priests and bishops who do the work of the Lord with complete faithfulness. The vast majority of priests are good holy men! It is only a tiny percentage of priests who abused their office to hurt people for personal sick reasons; and very few bishops who by their ignorance of the root of the problem helped cover it up.

The Church is dealing with this quite well and we need to pray for Her ministers and for the administrations of dioceses.

 

[Lapey]

More importantly, we certainly don’t need members of the Church who mistakenly think that they can get away with child abuse and/or cover up that abuse.

What are you trying to say here? You wonder why people challenge you on your posts? Are you implying that there is still wide spread abuse and cover up going on now and that “members of the Church” want to keep child abuse covered up?

If you know of abuse and/or cover up of abuse….REPORT IT!!! If not, stop implying it.

There is another side of this story which you seem to not think about, there are many who are falsely accused of abuse. This is one of my biggest fears, which is why my wife is with me in almost everything I do in youth ministry. If she cannot be, another trusted adult is. We work a buddy system where no adult can ever be accused of wrong doing because there is always a witness. But priests very often do not have that luxury, they must be alone for confessions or spiritual direction. I know of a couple of priests who are now out of active ministry because of accusations which have been proven false.

It is sad that the ones who provide God’s mercy are shown no mercy. Are there bad men in the priesthood? Yes, but again it is the tiny minority of the men who wear the collar.

 

[ringil]

400 in two years actually doesn’t sound like that many to me considering how many priests are in the world.

I wonder at what rate Francis is doing the thing.

Best to get the rotten plants and weeds from continuing to infect the garden I say.

 

[ringil]

There is another side of this story which you seem to not think about, there are many who are falsely accused of abuse. This is one of my biggest fears,

That’s your “biggest fear”??

My great fear is that one more child will be abused.

Better 100 investigations and 1 child protected than covering up for the fear that someone will be falsely accused.

Also, why do you state that remaining with your wife as if it is unusual? If you aren’t there another adult will be- that is required under the current “Protecting Our Children” policies.

Except in Lincoln under Bruskewitz- the ONLY and that’s right ONLY diocese in the entire nation which refused to sign on to the policies. I find myself asking- what makes Lincoln so special?

 

[Lapey]

That’s your “biggest fear”??

My great fear is that one more child will be abused.

Better 100 investigations and 1 child protected than covering up for the fear that someone will be falsely accused.

Also, why do you state that remaining with your wife as if it is unusual? If you aren’t there another adult will be- that is required under the current “Protecting Our Children” policies.

Except in Lincoln under Bruskewitz- the ONLY and that’s right ONLY diocese in the entire nation which refused to sign on to the policies. I find myself asking- what makes Lincoln so special?

Read it again, I said “one of”. The biggest is of course, a child being hurt.