Pope Benedict to celebrate AD ORIENTEM!

  • Thread starter Thread starter francesco920
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
I am struck by this answer from a priest on AOL (although not from exactly the same question):
There are so many holes in your quote of this “AOL. priest”, that I’d like a link to his words. Otherwise one can’t really know that these ideas are not your own.

I’ll quickly address one point. God may not “need” out prayers, but WE desparately need to say them. WE need to adore Him, it is inherent in our being & by giving us a chance to do so, He satisfies one of our deepest drives…communication with our Creator.

Please link us to the author of those words.
 
Is this his own teaching on the Mass or is it the Church’s teaching? His own teaching doesn’t have any value.

From the Baltimore Catechism-Part 3 Lesson Twenty-Fourth: On the Sacrifce of the Mass, Q. 917. What is the Mass?

A. The Mass is the unbloody sacrifice of the body and blood of Christ.

Q. 918. Why is this Sacrifice called the Mass?
A. This Sacrifice is called the “Mass” very probably from the words “Ite Missa est,” used by the priest as he tells the people to depart when the Holy Sacrifice is ended.

Q. 919. What is a sacrifice?
A. A sacrifice is the offering of an object by a priest to God alone, and the consuming of it to acknowledge that He is the Creator and Lord of all things.

Q. 920. Is the Mass the same sacrifice as that of the Cross?
A. The Mass is the same sacrifice as that of the Cross.

Q. 921. How is the Mass the same sacrifice as that of the Cross?
A. The Mass is the same sacrifice as that of the Cross because the offering and the priest are the same – Christ our Blessed Lord; and the ends for which the sacrifice of the Mass is offered are the same as those of the sacrifice of the Cross.

Q. 922. What were the ends for which the sacrifice of the Cross was offered?
A. The ends for which the sacrifice of the Cross was offered were:

1st. To honor and glorify God;
2nd. To thank Him for all the graces bestowed on the whole world;
3rd. To satisfy God’s justice for the sins of men;
4th. To obtain all graces and blessings.

Q. 923. How are the fruits of the Mass distributed?
A. The fruits of the Mass are distributed thus:

The first benefit is bestowed on the priest who says the Mass;
The second on the person for whom the Mass is said, or for the intention for which it is said;
The third on those who are present at the Mass, and particularly on those who serve it, and
The fourth on all the faithful who are in communion with the Church.

The AOL Priest stated “God has no need of our worship” That does not sound right.
That is because it is wrong. God deserves our worship & we have a great need to give it. EXCELLENT post, BTW.
 
There are so many holes in your quote of this “AOL. priest”, that I’d like a link to his words. Otherwise one can’t really know that these ideas are not your own.

I’ll quickly address one point. God may not “need” out prayers, but WE desparately need to say them. WE need to adore Him, it is inherent in our being & by giving us a chance to do so, He satisfies one of our deepest drives…communication with our Creator.

Please link us to the author of those words.
Feel free to go to aol.com, people connection, message boards, Ask a Priest or Deacon (messageboards.aol.com/aol/en_us/articles.php?boardId=211291&func=3&channel=People+Connection)

Unfortunately aol does not link directly to a post so consider searching the thread with a phrase from what I quoted.

Poster was Revcam and thread is Pope Turns His Back.
 
.

From your link, " Catholics do pray what is called the Final Doxology (“For thine is the kingdom…”) when praying the Our Father at Mass, but it is separated from the Our Father by an interspersed prayer (“Deliver us, Lord…”) in order to acknowledge that it does not properly belong to the Our Father as it was given to us by Christ."

Maybe I need to be more clear. At all of the Masses of the Ordinary Form that I have ever attended, the Our Father is followed by , “For Thine is the Kingdom, the Power and the Glory etc…”.
The Apologist is correct. There is a short pause between the Our Father and , “For Thine is the Kingdom…” But nonetheless it is said. And over the past few years, the congregation holds hands during the Our Father and **then all raise their arms **while saying, " For Thine is the Kingdom and the Power and the Glory Forever Amen."
It pains me, but I admit I raise my arms…ever so slightly. When in Rome…!
You made a very direct claim that this was ADDED TO the Our Father. You also claimed there are many options and maybe bishop did not allow it here locally. Neither of these claims are true.

It is part of the MASS and not part of the Our Father.

It is an old item - it is not created by Protestants or a sign of Protestant tampering with the Mass.
 
You made a very direct claim that this was ADDED TO the Our Father. You also claimed there are many options and maybe bishop did not allow it here locally. Neither of these claims are true.

I should not have used the word added. However it is said by the congregation after the Our Father and it is said by Protestants as part of the Our Father.
Bishops are allowed to adapt the Liturgy to their diocese. That was one of the major changes made at Vatican II.
It is part of the MASS and not part of the Our Father.
 
As I stated the prayer goes back to the early century. However
“For Thine is the Kingdom…” was included in the **Mass of Cranmer. ** It was never in the Catholic Traditional Latin Mass before Vatican II.
Ah, a voice of knowledge. This ADDITION was not included in the Douay-Rheims (more properly called the “Rheims-Challoner,”) Bible, either. But, one must remember that this, the most accurate of all written scripture, was given the imprimatur at the time when Catholics were still Catholics, and there was no tendency toward modernism and protestantization.
 
Also, to address something else that has been brought up, the argument that Protestants helped design the Novus Ordo is a red herring. Protestants were invited to V2, as they were to Trent and V1; this was the first time that they attended. But the Holy Office stated shortly after the advent of the Novus Ordo that the Protestants had not had a hand in its construction.
that is one of the arguments of the sedevacantists in their objection to novus ordo that the protestants and a rabbi had their hands in the creation of the N.O. The sedevacantists would not accept that those people were just observers. They could not believe that N.O. can and must be celebrated with the same reverence as the TLM. They misinterpret the abuses in the celebration of N.O Mass as if those abuses/aberrations are approved by the Holy See.
 
that is one of the arguments of the sedevacantists in their objection to novus ordo that the protestants and a rabbi had their hands in the creation of the N.O. The sedevacantists would not accept that those people were just observers. They could not believe that N.O. can and must be celebrated with the same reverence as the TLM. They misinterpret the abuses in the celebration of N.O Mass as if those abuses/aberrations are approved by the Holy See.
That is strange because not to long ago during a sermon at Mass I heard a priest state the protestant observers did have a hand in the New Order of Mass. The priest went on to say that there is nothing wrong with that. Also, he stated that we as Catholics came to them because we are in the position of strength. I sat and thought to myself that is not true the protestant observers did not have a hand in it. What are we supposed to believe?🤷
 
That is strange because not to long ago during a sermon at Mass I heard a priest state the protestant observers did have a hand in the New Order of Mass. The priest went on to say that there is nothing wrong with that. Also, he stated that we as Catholics came to them because we are in the position of strength. I sat and thought to myself that is not true the protestant observers did not have a hand in it. What are we supposed to believe?🤷
I think the truth lies somewhere in between. As I understand it, the protestants had no official (name removed by moderator)ut into the proceedings. They were allowed only to observe. However, they would naturally have had converstations with the committee members “after hours” and discussed their impressions and given their opinions. How these opinions might have subsequently influenced members of the committee can therefore never really be know for sure, since the (name removed by moderator)ut was not official. Nevertheless the opinions of the protestants were not necessarily anti-catholic and there is no reason to believe that any influence they might have had produced anti-catholic results. In fact, the end product (the mass) is divinely protected from anything contrary to the faith.
 
.

Maybe I need to be more clear. At all of the Masses of the Ordinary Form that I have ever attended, the Our Father is followed by , “For Thine is the Kingdom, the Power and the Glory etc…”.
The Apologist is correct. There is a short pause between the Our Father and , “For Thine is the Kingdom…” But nonetheless it is said. And over the past few years, the congregation holds hands during the Our Father and **then all raise their arms **while saying, " For Thine is the Kingdom and the Power and the Glory Forever Amen."
It pains me, but I admit I raise my arms…ever so slightly. When in Rome…!
Is to say to God “For Thine is the Kingdom, the Power and the Glory are Yours” abominable that it cannot and should not be included in the Mass, the highest form of worship? Just because it came from the protestants? Why are you so allergic to protestants as if they cannot in anyway do any good or say any truth? By the way, they were protestants because of our failure to show the true countenance of the Mystical Body of Christ, of what is to be a perfect disciple of Christ. More than your Faith is Love, Charity. It is Love that makes us like Him who is All Love. You know when we pass to the next life, faith is no longer faith because truth you will see as it is. but love? it is for all eternity.

what do you mean by this “It pains me, but I admit I raise my arms…ever so slightly. When in Rome…!”?

Do you mean you believe God abhors raising your arms in worshiping Him? O come on, all parts of our body came from Him. nothing came from the evil one. There can be no better way of worshiping the Lord than involving the entirety of our being–body and soul, heart and mind. On the contrary, Christ did abhors legalism. that is pharisaic legacy. it is the SPIRIT that gives LIFE. Moreover, God looks at the heart of the worshiper not on how one measures his/her behaviour in the church.

Let’s worship the Most High in spirit and truth with our whole being–body and soul, heart and mind consecrated to Him for His is the Kingdom, the Power, and the Glory yesterday, today, tomorrow and forever. And, let’s radiate our union with the Lord to our neighbors for the Lord has said love one another as I have love you. I do believe, if we do this, there will be no protestants, no muslim, no agnostics, no pagans for who can resist LOVE? Sadly we fail on this, so many are scandalized and turned them away from the Pillar of Truth, the Ark of Salvation.

Ad orientem or ad populum, with or without “for Thine is the Kingdom doxology”…that will not make us truly Catholics if we don’t even know how to smile to our enemies–in this case, the protestants. Don’t forget Christ commanded us “Love your enemies.” Have we even prayed for them that they may return to their Mother like the prodigal son?

Brethren, while we wrestle here with our erudition, let’s not forget the basic–Faith without Love is nothing.

Amen.
 
that is one of the arguments of the sedevacantists in their objection to novus ordo that the protestants and a rabbi had their hands in the creation of the N.O. ** The sedevacantists would not accept that those people were just observers**. They could not believe that N.O. can and must be celebrated with the same reverence as the TLM. They misinterpret the abuses in the celebration of N.O Mass as if those abuses/aberrations are approved by the Holy See.
I am not a sedevacantist yet I absolutely believe that the Protestant observers had an (name removed by moderator)ut into the reform of the Mass.
Please consider that the observers represented the liturgical views of Lutheranism, Calvinism and Anglicanism
It is not an accident that the changes to the Mass are the same changes that the Protestant Reformers made to their Mass.
The Mass was changed for the purpose of ecumenism. But in doing so, in my opinion, the Catholic reformers did the very thing that Dom Prosper Gueranger, founder of the Benedictine Congregation of France wrote about in the year 1840.

Dom Prosper Gueranger Liturgical Institutions
The first characteristic of the anti-liturgical heresy is hatred of Tradition as found in the formulas used in divine worship. One cannot fail to note this special characteristic in all heretics, from Vigilantus to Calvin, and the reason for it is easy to explain.
Every sectarian who wishes to introduce a new doctrine finds himself, unfailingly, face to face with the Liturgy, which is Tradition at its strongest and best, and he cannot rest until he has silenced this voice, until he has torn up these pages which recall the faith of past centuries.
As a matter of fact, how could Lutheranism, Calvinism, Anglicanism establish themselves and maintain their influence over the masses? All they had to do was substitute new books and new formulas in place of the ancient books and formulas, and their work was done. There was nothing that still bothered the new teachers; they could just go on preaching as they wished: the faith of the people was henceforth without defense.

Since the liturgical reform had for one of its principal aims the abolition of actions and formulas of mystical signification, it is a logical consequence that its authors had to vindicate the use of the vernacular in divine worship. This is in the eyes of sectarians a most important item. Cult is no secret matter. The people, they say, must understand what they sing. Hatred for the Latin language is inborn in the hearts of all the enemies of Rome. They recognize it as the bond among Catholics throughout the universe, as the arsenal of orthodoxy against all the subtleties of the sectarian spirit… We must admit it is a master blow of Protestantism to have declared war on the sacred language. If it should ever succeed in ever destroying it, it would be well on the way to victory. Exposed to profane gaze, like a virgin who has been violated, from that moment on the Liturgy has lost much of its sacred character, and very soon people find that it is not worthwhile putting aside one’s work or pleasure in order to go and listen to what is being said in the way one speaks on the marketplace.”

In my opinion the Mass has lost much of its sacred character. Tradition is being destroyed. The bond between Catholics, one common language of the liturgy, has been taken.The mystery of the Mass has been weakened by the stripping of the sanctuary, communion in the hand, lay Eucharistic ministers, pop music, all vernacular liturgy etc. and the banal architecture of the modern Church.
 
natsclem-

Interesting speech, filled with colorful rhetoric, but your argument lacks substance. Calling for a return to traditional rubrics does not demonstrate lack of charity. Refusing to imitate Protestants is not refusing to love them.

You acknowledge that the Church is the Ark of Salvation. Why not embrace our tradition, and seal the Ark against the outside influences of schismatics and heretics?
 
=natsclem;3238325]Is to say to God “For Thine is the Kingdom, the Power and the Glory are Yours” abominable that it cannot and should not be included in the Mass, the highest form of worship? Just because it came from the protestants?
The prayer did not come from the Protestants. It is an ancient prayer. I don’t like it in the Catholic Mass because it was said in the Mass of Cranmer.It adds a flavor of Protestantism to the Mass.
By the way, they were protestants because of our failure to show the true countenance of the Mystical Body of Christ, of what is to be a perfect disciple of Christ.
I see. The Catholic Church was to blame. Are you a Protestant?
More than your Faith is** Love**, Charity. It is** Love **that makes us like Him who is All Love You know when we pass to the next life, faith is no longer faith because truth you will see as it is. but love? it is for all eternity.
All you need is love, love, love. Love is all you need
what do you mean by this “It pains me, but I admit I raise my arms…ever so slightly. When in Rome…!”?
Do you mean you believe God abhors raising your arms in worshiping Him?
Yes, I absolutely hate that part of the Mass. It comes from the charismatic movement of Pentecostal Christians.
There can be no better way of worshiping the Lord than involving the entirety of our being–body and soul, heart and mind
.
So before this practice started worship wasn’t as pleasing to God? Are you an advocate of liturgical dancing too?
Let’s worship the Most High in spirit and truth with our whole being–body and soul, heart and mind consecrated to Him for His is the Kingdom, the Power, and the Glory yesterday, today, tomorrow and forever
.

AMEN!!!
.
 
The prayer did not come from the Protestants. It is an ancient prayer. I don’t like it in the Catholic Mass because it was said in the Mass of Cranmer.It adds a flavor of Protestantism to the Mass.

.
We draw from the same scriptural well - so what is the real problem??
 
We draw from the same scriptural well - so what is the real problem??
What’s the real problem? As a cradle Catholic for 57 years I do not want the Mass to have any flavor of Protestantism.
Statistics do not lie. Belief in the Real Presence among Catholics is around 40% or less. Only 25 % go to Church on Sunday.
How is this possible?
The statistics show that Protestant church- goers are less today than in the past. However Protestants have no reason to go to their worship services. The body and blood of Christ is not present there.
I truly believe that to destroy a faith you must first destroy its Tradtions. Pope Benedict knows this. He knows that saying the Mass Ad Orientem will in the long run help to restore belief in the Real Presence. But that would just be a start. There are many Traditions that need to be brought back. I am sick and tired of going to Catholic Churches and seeing the sanctuary stripped of everything Catholic.
I want no flavor of Protestantism any where in the Mass.
 
What’s the real problem? As a cradle Catholic for 57 years I do not want the Mass to have any flavor of Protestantism.
Since this doxology predates Protestantism is it accurate to give it ‘credit’ for it?

Why does the shared use of something from scripture bastardize it?
 
I do believe, if we do this, there will be no protestants, no muslim, no agnostics, no pagans for who can resist LOVE? Sadly we fail on this, so many are scandalized and turned them away from the Pillar of Truth, the Ark of Salvation. The problem is that protestants, muslims, agnostics, and pagans with not obey God and His Church, the Catholic Church. Those groups are full of pride.
 
Since this doxology predates Protestantism is it accurate to give it ‘credit’ for it?

Why does the shared use of something from scripture bastardize it?
I don’t give Protestants “credit” for it. Cranmer added it to the Our Father and put it into his mass. Matin Luther adds it to the Our Father in his Catechism. The King James Bible adds it to the Our Father in its translation of the Bible and makes it appear that those words were spoken by Christ.
Sorry, I don’t want to hear it at Mass. I don’t want to hear any Protestant hyms either. There is plenty of Traditional Catholic Music that needs to be heard instead.
 
I do believe, if we do this, there will be no protestants, no muslim, no agnostics, no pagans for who can resist LOVE? Sadly we fail on this, so many are scandalized and turned them away from the Pillar of Truth, the Ark of Salvation.
The problem is that protestants, muslims, agnostics, and pagans with not obey God and His Church, the Catholic Church. Those groups are full of pride.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top