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serrevin
Guest
unbelievable
let me get this straight.
so if someone told him that there was a priest who committed murder and wanted a room in a rectory somewhere to recieve counseling and rehabilitation would that have been a legitimate call to make? murderers have been known to change through counseling you know. the most obvious failure here is that all these bishops, cardinals, etc… KNEW THIS MAN DESTROYED THE BODIES AND SOULS OF CHILDREN AND DID NOTHING TO BRING HIM TO JUSTICE! that’s the issue.
so there’s tons of “there” there.
let me get this straight.
so if someone told him that there was a priest who committed murder and wanted a room in a rectory somewhere to recieve counseling and rehabilitation would that have been a legitimate call to make? murderers have been known to change through counseling you know. the most obvious failure here is that all these bishops, cardinals, etc… KNEW THIS MAN DESTROYED THE BODIES AND SOULS OF CHILDREN AND DID NOTHING TO BRING HIM TO JUSTICE! that’s the issue.
so there’s tons of “there” there.
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lemonbeam
Guest
You don’t seem to understand. I suggest you re-read the article. The accusation is that Pope Benedict, or Cardinal Ratzinger was implicit in a deliberate cover up of this Wisconsin Priest. The accusation is false! It was common back then to believe that pedophilia could be cured by therapy. Not just in the Catholic Church. Other denominations and I’m sure other religions as well. It’s hard to make sense of this now, because things are so different and there are rigorous child protection systems in place in churches now. Have you ever wondered why the victims never went to the Police at the time, I’m speculating here but maybe they did go to the police but they didn’t take it seriously and probably said the same thing that the Priest would be cured by therapy and they sent the Priest away. It was common thought back then. No one knew much about pedophilia. Serious mistakes have been made, but we have no evidence the heirarchy did this with any malice of forethought. They actually thought that therapy helped.
The Vatican was first notified of the Wisconsin Priest in 1996: 40 years after Church officials in Wisconsin were first made aware of the problem. The Vatican is not to blame and neither is the Pope, the archdiocese of the time when this abuse took place is to blame. But the true story, what I’ve just noted, wouldn’t be such an intriguing story for the mainstream media, would it?
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Fair_Lady
Guest
This is how sinister that is:
Ratzinger and other church officiials failed to report the matter to police, so that a full blown investigation could have been launched. Ultimately, the investigation could have landed the perpetrator in prison where he belonged! That would have been so much more appropriate than being “put up in a rectory while he is given psychological therrapy in Munich”!!! That would have been a move that might have saved further opportunity for the evil one to sexually assault even more victims, which did occur. Thankfully, he did get sent to jail later on in Germany.
Igorarance of methods of “cure” is no excuse! They would have known that paedophilia was against the law at that time. Even I, a very young adult, knew that it was against the law at that time. My own son was the target of a paedophile right around that year and he was brought before the courts and the perpetrator got a guilty verdict. Men in the position of clergy would surely have known that sexual offences such as paedaphilia was wrong and punishable by the law of the land.
There’s enough “there” to put in a full investigation in order to bring out the facts. I doubt that will happen, though, judging from the general attitude and tendancy to try and smooth things over for the pope from the “faithful”, even as expressed on these forums.
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utica
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Just a point of clarification:
Jimmy’s piece does addresses the Essen case, not the Wisconsin case.
The Wisconsin case involves correspondence with the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, when B16 headed it up.
However, in my view the spin being put on this correspondence is the same as with the Essen case. I’ve read through the documents that the New York Times links to in their article from March 24th: tinyurl.com/yjecjrv
From reading through the documents, I don’t see any basis for the Times’ claim that the highest priority of “church officials” was protecting the Church from scandal.
Here are the documents that the Times itself refers to for making its claim. I fail to see how they do so:
tinyurl.com/yjxdg46
Jimmy’s piece does addresses the Essen case, not the Wisconsin case.
The Wisconsin case involves correspondence with the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, when B16 headed it up.
However, in my view the spin being put on this correspondence is the same as with the Essen case. I’ve read through the documents that the New York Times links to in their article from March 24th: tinyurl.com/yjecjrv
From reading through the documents, I don’t see any basis for the Times’ claim that the highest priority of “church officials” was protecting the Church from scandal.
Here are the documents that the Times itself refers to for making its claim. I fail to see how they do so:
tinyurl.com/yjxdg46
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lemonbeam
Guest
What is the accusation? That Pope Benedict was implicit in the cover up of the Wisconsin Priest. The accusation is false!
As a Protestant you tell me, how did the Protestant Church deal with sex abuses cases in the 1950s, 1960s, 1970s? Where all the cases reported to the police, and the Priests prosecuted if found guilty, or where there coverups as well? Sending the Priests away to be cured?
The same must of been done in all the Churches, regardless of denomination, in all the religions!
The view back then was that pedophilia was something that could be cured! That was the general view! I’m not defending the horrible things that when on but you have put this in perspective!
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serrevin
Guest
it’s amazing that you’re not getting the point
the fact that people that pedo’s could be rehabbed is not the issue. that’s why I brought up murder. murderers can be rehabbed, does that mean if you catch wind of someone committing murder that you send them for rehab instead of sending for a detective?! that’s the point! the point is that these folks should have been brought to justice! and please don’t tell me that those in power did not know about this and the hundreds of other cases we don’t have knowledge of. any attempt to justify this action (inaction a better word) just further proves the curruption
the fact that people that pedo’s could be rehabbed is not the issue. that’s why I brought up murder. murderers can be rehabbed, does that mean if you catch wind of someone committing murder that you send them for rehab instead of sending for a detective?! that’s the point! the point is that these folks should have been brought to justice! and please don’t tell me that those in power did not know about this and the hundreds of other cases we don’t have knowledge of. any attempt to justify this action (inaction a better word) just further proves the curruption
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lemonbeam
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I agree with you that the Priests back then involved in sex abuse should of been taken to Justice.
But you have to ask questions of your own Church as well. I’m fed up with the Catholic Church being targeted while of the rest of Christian denominations, many who have higher rates of abuse than in the Catholic Church, are let of scot free in the media. Regarding abuse in the present, and the past.
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Michael_Forrest
Guest
Another article on this and related issues - directed to an attack by Christopher Hitchens on Pope Benedict XVI:
catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0329.htm
catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0329.htm
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serrevin
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two reasons
- you can’t have your cake and eat it too. the Roman Catholic church makes the most audacious claims about itself and its leaders that have ever been made by any religious institution in the history of the world. as such, they should at minimum be held to common sense standards of decency and morality.
- there is no “protestant church” with a protestant heirarchy analagous to Rome. therefore there is no one to protect folks who show themselves to be abusive to children. i’m sorry but this guy abused at least 200 DISABLED CHILDREN and was buried in priestly vestments…this is institutionalized child abuse enablement
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silentstar
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Lemonbeam, you seem to be confusing the Wisconsin and the German cases. This post references Wisconsin but the story is about the priest from Germany.
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Verbum_Caro
Guest
A few things that might be relevant to this discussion. In the Wisconsin case, according to my understanding:
the (true) allegations were brought to the police, they investigated, and he wasn’t charged;
the Vatican wasn’t informed until 20 year later, which was after the Church’s statute of limitations at the time.
Anyone know if this is correct?
I don’t know what the statute of limitations for criminal cases involving sexual abuse of minors was at the time in Wisconsin – anyone have that info?
VC
the (true) allegations were brought to the police, they investigated, and he wasn’t charged;
the Vatican wasn’t informed until 20 year later, which was after the Church’s statute of limitations at the time.
Anyone know if this is correct?
I don’t know what the statute of limitations for criminal cases involving sexual abuse of minors was at the time in Wisconsin – anyone have that info?
VC
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whm
Guest
To be fair the story clearly stated that burial happened against the Bishops wishes for a closed coffin and private burial.
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serrevin
Guest
understood.
but it still happened.
but it still happened.
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whatevergirl
Guest
*Regardless if it could be cured or not…raping/molesting kids, and adults for that matter is a crime. These were crimes. This wasn’t a character flaw issue, these were crimes. Crimes against children, no less. Not all minors, but many. Even if they were not minors, I doubt the teens involved felt they could go walk down to the police station and being taken seriously with these accusations. What is different from back then to now, is the awareness of pedophilia and sexual deviancy, and that we don’t have 24 hour news to catch everyone in the act of doing something wrong, like we do today. The victims didn’t go to the police because they were scared–maybe they were threatened. Either way, we don’t know the full truth, we only know what’s been presented…I’d like to know what happened in a Church that I have belonged to all my life, don’t you? I’m not quick to say just because I’m a practicing Catholic that this one and that one had nothing to do with it, because I don’t know. I’d like to believe our Pope wasn’t involved in anything bad…but, I’d like to see a thorough investigation take place to what happened back then…because barring that, we just don’t know. *
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Alexia2000
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whatevergirl
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So was the transferring of priests to other parishes supposed to be the ‘cure?’ 
That excuse is lame. Very lame. If they thought these men could be cured, they could have gotten them treatment, and they should have taken long leaves of absence…in hopes of being cured. Not transferring them to other parishes…how is that going to cure anyone of anything? Do you cure an alcoholic by transferring them from one bar to another? Not saying that people didn’t think it couldn’t be cured, but transferring priests to be around other kids, isn’t the answer…they wanted the problem to disappear…and it didn’t. It just got a lot worse. Humans make mistakes, some huge ones. Some, ones that cost people their very lives…and sadly, this is where we’re at. The transferring of priests, if the men are still alive to look back at what they did, hopefully, they can now see, the grave err of their judgement. And we can’t judge them, but tossing around reasons why the priests were transferred, there will never be a good enough reason. They were more than likely fearful of causing a panic in the Church. And here we are today, the very things they were fearful of happening…are right front and center. 
That excuse is lame. Very lame. If they thought these men could be cured, they could have gotten them treatment, and they should have taken long leaves of absence…in hopes of being cured. Not transferring them to other parishes…how is that going to cure anyone of anything? Do you cure an alcoholic by transferring them from one bar to another? Not saying that people didn’t think it couldn’t be cured, but transferring priests to be around other kids, isn’t the answer…they wanted the problem to disappear…and it didn’t. It just got a lot worse. Humans make mistakes, some huge ones. Some, ones that cost people their very lives…and sadly, this is where we’re at. The transferring of priests, if the men are still alive to look back at what they did, hopefully, they can now see, the grave err of their judgement. And we can’t judge them, but tossing around reasons why the priests were transferred, there will never be a good enough reason. They were more than likely fearful of causing a panic in the Church. And here we are today, the very things they were fearful of happening…are right front and center.
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Paul1961
Guest
The simple allegation of improper behavior should have meant that the priest was watched like a hawk for a long long time. Any more whispers of a problem and he’s done.
Clearly, many of these guys had chance after chance. To allow the abuser a single victim is unfortunate. To allow the abuser to continue molesting children is aiding and abetting.
This isn’t anything new. This is common sense.
So they were either complicit in the transfers and coverup or they were some of the stupidest people to ever live.
Clearly, many of these guys had chance after chance. To allow the abuser a single victim is unfortunate. To allow the abuser to continue molesting children is aiding and abetting.
This isn’t anything new. This is common sense.
So they were either complicit in the transfers and coverup or they were some of the stupidest people to ever live.
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lemonbeam
Guest
The statistics for Protestant sexual abuse of minors is actually a higher than what is found in the Catholic Church. A similar trend can be found in other non-Christian religions as well.
There have most certainly been cover ups of abuse in the Portestant Church.
WORCESTER, MA. A former pastor Andrew J. Bierkan, 54, at the First Congregational Church of Sutton who now heads a church in Ohio has been indicted here on charges of unnatural rape of a child and posing a child in a state of nudity. He is now pastor of St. Paul United Church of Christ in Cincinnati, according to Worcester District Attorney John J. Conte. (Worcester Telegram & Gazette, August 13, 2003)
Ex-Sutton pastor charged with rape of girl from church
Eddie Thomas, pastor of St. Luke Baptist Church in Ringgold, LA., is arrested and charged with indecent behavior with a juvenile, aggravated incest and pornography involving a juvenile. (the Shreveport Times, July 17, 2003)
%between%
South Austrailia, AUS. A South Australian police task force into child sex abuse within the Anglican Church had identified 217 victims and 48 possible offenders, police said today. However the number of victims could rise to more than 400 as investigations continued, Police Commissioner Mal Hyde said. Mr Hyde today likened the scale of police investigations into child sex abuse to those for the infamous Snowtown bodies-in-the-barrels murders in 1999. (The Age, July 16 2003)
Major sex abuse uncovered in Anglican Church
Lake Wales, FL. The pastor at the Church of the Nazarene has been charged with sexually assaulting a male 17-year-old youth leader three times in 2001. The Rev. Gene Francis, 52, of Lake Wales, was arrested Tuesday and charged with unlawful sexual activity with a minor. (Sarasota Herald-Tribune, June 4, 2003)
Lake Wales minister arrested in sexual assault case
Tuscon, AZ. The Rev. David Valencia, 47, assistant pastor of a Pentecostal church is expected in court Wednesday on rape charges issued by Pennsylvania authorities. In Pennsylvania, Valencia was an assistant pastor at Christ Church at Grove Farm, an interdenominational church that uses Anglican liturgy. The pastor of Christ Church, the Rev. John Guest, told the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette that Valencia was dismissed in late 2001 because he was found to have pornography on an office computer after he was warned about a similar incident months earlier. (Tucson Citizen, May 31, 2003)
Rev. David Valencia allegedly had sex with a 17-year-old girl he was counseling
Read more stories like this here: reformation.com/CSA/bibleabuse.html
None of those stories involve the Catholic Church. These are not isolated cases in the Protestant Church either.
The figures offer a glimpse into what has long been an extremely difficult phenomenon to pin down – the frequency of sex abuse in Protestant congregations.
There have also been cover ups of abuse in the Church of England:
*(Telegraph) - Child abuse has gone unchecked in the Church of England for decades amid a cover up by bishops, secret papers have revealed.
Information that could have prevented abuse has been “lost or damaged”, concerns about individuals have been ignored and allegations have not been recorded. It means that the Church has no idea how many paedophiles are in its midst.
Lawyers warned last night that the Church faces a crisis as catastrophic as the one that engulfed the Roman Catholic Church and cost it millions of pounds in damages.
Richard Scorer, a solicitor who has specialised in child abuse cases, said that the Church of England’s mistakes amounted to “an appalling, shocking level of negligence” that is likely to leave it open to claims from victims who have been too afraid to speak out in the past. The Church is to launch an urgent investigation on an unprecedented scale.
It will look at the records of thousands of clergy – including those who have retired – church employees, lay workers and volunteers dating back decades in an attempt to expose those who have previously escaped prosecution and identify those who pose “current risks”.
Dioceses will appoint independent reviewers with access to all of their personnel files. These are due to be examined over an 18-month period.
However, the internal Church documents – leaked to The Sunday Telegraph – show that even if churchwardens, who are lay officials, are found to have previous allegations against them, the Church has no power to suspend them…*
telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1566826/C-of-E-child-abuse-was-ignored-for-decades.html
There is nothing we can do about this Wisconsin Priest now. He is dead. Terrible mistakes where made by the Archdiocese at the time, but Pope Benedict did not cover up abuse!
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lemonbeam
Guest
(Chicago Sun Times):
rickross.com/reference/clergy/clergy714.html
In comparison, 10 such allegations where made to the Catholic Church in the year of 2008. According to this: opposingviews.com/i/sexual-abuse-by-rabbis-where-is-the-public-outcry
Perspectives are important.
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