Pope Benedict Wants Mass Translation Changed from 'For All' to 'For Many'

[archangel04]

So the Greeks who belong to the Greek Catholic Church should pray in Latin and not in Greek? Why is Latin superior to the Greek language?

Here we go! We always have to involve the Orthodox in anything that involves Latin don’t we?

 

[archangel04]

I really despise Greek vs Latin arguments. Reminds me of the Homer vs Virgil mythology debates we had in school. They are both languages of the cross and they have both promoted Christianity on a universal level since Christ. The Latin Mass has preserved some Greek in the Mass. It’s small part but it is significant. Even in his Veterum Sapientia, while emphatically encouraging Latin, Pope John XXIII, who just before convening Vatican II, paid much respect to the Greek language. If there’s any reason I myself find Latin more suited is that Latin is outside being a national language. Therefore Latin should be more neutral, but Greek is definitely not inferior. (Nor Hebrew, for that matter.)

Exactly!

 

[Zimm3r]

Don’t blame any butchered translations. There is no such thing as a perfect translation. People were leaving in droves well before Vatican II was completed. Religious vocations dropped as well, leaving very few teachers to provide the proper catechism of children. Thus there weren’t too many left to even explain Vatican II or the Catholic faith to them. The vernacular was supposed to make things more understandable, but there has been no evidence that it has. It’s like in math, you need to learn some symbols (+,-,=, etc) before things become clear. Without them, it’s possible to learn math and people may prefer it that way, but in the long run it just won’t work without some standard. Just saying.

You are comparing the symbols of mathematics to a translation of mass that is Latin, even if the language is Latin it is still an imperfect translation of what the mass is, so you idea that Latin is superior is ridiculous on that account, and I still maintain that Greek and Aramaic would be much better and I would put Latin on par with Spanish, German, English, Italian, etc, why? because it is has not reason to be raised to a better position unlike Greek and Aramaic the languages Jesus was recorded in and the language He spoke. Latin is used by the church, so that shouldn’t give it any upper status so what it is used by the church the church could use Slovak or Russian for all I care and it wouldn’t change because they have no pinning to God where as Greek and Aramaic do.

 

[austenbosten]

It would be nice if there was a universal language spoken at mass for the universal Church.

 

[JoeBowen7]

It would be nice if there was a universal language spoken at mass for the universal Church.

The problem is that there is no universal language. They tried esperanto, but it has not taken off. The Greeks are reluctant to use latin, and the Roman Catholics are reluctant to use Greek. Mandarin Chinese is spoken by more people in the world than any other language so on that basis then should we require that all Masses be celebrated exclusively in Mandarin Chinese?

 

[YoungTradCath]

The problem is that there is no universal language. They tried esperanto, but it has not taken off. The Greeks are reluctant to use latin, and the Roman Catholics are reluctant to use Greek. Mandarin Chinese is spoken by more people in the world than any other language so on that basis then should we require that all Masses be celebrated exclusively in Mandarin Chinese?

Perhaps a bit more modest proposal is to have a standard language for the Latin Church. That worked for a while.

Btw, I wouldn’t mind a bit if Mass was in Greek!

 

[ProVobis]

Roman Catholics are reluctant to use Greek. /QUOTE]

The Latin Mass uses Greek and Hebrew, the two other languages of the cross. (The inscription above Christ was written in Latin, Greek, and Hebrew. We have two gospel accounts of this.)

Most vernacular Masses have even attempted to translate the Hebrew “Sabaoth” which in itself has very deep and powerful meaning, which IMO cannot be translated.

 

[ProVobis]

… I would put Latin on par with Spanish, German, English, Italian, etc, why? because it is has not reason to be raised to a better position …

Pope John XXIII disagrees with you.

Preservation of Latin by the Holy See

For these reasons the Apostolic See has always been at pains to preserve Latin, deeming it worthy of being used in the exercise of her teaching authority "as the splendid vesture of her heavenly doctrine and sacred laws."5 She further requires her sacred ministers to use it, for by so doing they are the better able, wherever they may be, to acquaint themselves with the mind of the Holy See on any matter, and communicate the more easily with Rome and with one another.

Thus the “knowledge and use of this language,” so intimately bound up with the Church’s life, "is important not so much on cultural or literary grounds, as for religious reasons."6 These are the words of Our Predecessor Pius XI, who conducted a scientific inquiry into this whole subject, and indicated three qualities of the Latin language which harmonize to a remarkable degree with the Church’s nature. **“For the Church, precisely because it embraces all nations and is destined to endure to the end of time … of its very nature requires a language which is universal, immutable, and non-vernacular.”**7

Universal

Since "every Church must assemble round the Roman Church,"8 and since the Supreme Pontiffs have "true episcopal power, ordinary and immediate, over each and every Church and each and every Pastor, as well as over the faithful"9 of every rite and language, it seems particularly desirable that the instrument of mutual communication be uniform and universal, especially between the Apostolic See and the Churches which use the same Latin rite.

When, therefore, the Roman Pontiffs wish to instruct the Catholic world, or when the Congregations of the Roman Curia handle matters or draw up decrees which concern the whole body of the faithful, they invariably make use of Latin, for this is a maternal voice acceptable to countless nations.

Immutable

Furthermore, the Church’s language must be not only universal but also immutable. Modern languages are liable to change, and no single one of them is superior to the others in authority. Thus if the truths of the Catholic Church were entrusted to an unspecified number of them, the meaning of these truths, varied as they are, would not be manifested to everyone with sufficient clarity and precision. There would, moreover, be no language which could serve as a common and constant norm by which to gauge the exact meaning of other renderings.

But Latin is indeed such a language. It is set and unchanging. it has long since ceased to be affected by those alterations in the meaning of words which are the normal result of daily, popular use. Certain Latin words, it is true, acquired new meanings as Christian teaching developed and needed to be explained and defended, but these new meanings have long since become accepted and firmly established.

papalencyclicals.net/John23/j23veterum.htm

unlike Greek and Aramaic the languages Jesus was recorded in and the language He spoke.

Do you have such recordings so we can hear His exact words?

 

[Timothysis]

and yet during your imagined era of rote memorized prayer, people lived much holier lives, and the world was in less of a mess than it is now.

You obviously know little to nothing about the lives of the Most Christian Kings of Europe during the past 1000 years or so, not to mention the people of their countries. Adultery, homosexuality and out of wedlock births are NOT a recent phenomenon.

 

[JaMc]

Here we go! We always have to involve the Orthodox in anything that involves Latin don’t we?

Remember when Bishop Basil still posted here? Anyway, I thought the Eastern Rites traditionally used Old Church Slavonic as their ecclesiastical language, but someone more knowledgable about the Eastern Rites than I could offer more comment than I ever could.

Also remember, the EF Mass DOES have some Greek in it (as do many OF Masses): “Kyrie Eleision, Christe Eleision, Kyrie Eleision”

That being said, I think there is some merit in using a neutral language like Latin, that isn’t constantly changing, and constantly requiring updated translations (which ANY vernacular language would - think, for a minute, if the Mass was in English hundreds of years ago. Anyone read an original verson of Chaucer lately?). Musical terms are all in Italian, many scientific and medical terms are in Latin, why not have a standardized language for (at least the Western) Church?

 

[JaMc]

You obviously know little to nothing about the lives of the Most Christian Kings of Europe during the past 1000 years or so, not to mention the people of their countries. Adultery, homosexuality and out of wedlock births are NOT a recent phenomenon.

Yes, we have always had sinners. But the acceptance, even CELEBRATION, of such sin in mainstream society is a relatively recent phenomenon. The nearest comparison, in the Western world, anyway, would be ancient Pagan Rome.

 

[Timothysis]

Yes, we have always had sinners. But the acceptance, even CELEBRATION, of such sin in mainstream society is a relatively recent phenomenon. The nearest comparison, in the Western world, anyway, would be ancient Pagan Rome.

Kings and emperors not only had numerous mistresses and concubines, they were flaunted and placed in positions by their lovers. The kings of France possible may have had more children out of wedlock with lovers and mistresses than with their wives. In the Austrian Empire , aristocrats were expected to have mistresses even though the Church frowned severely upon it. Even popes had mistresses and out of wedlock children.

“There is nothing new under the Sun.”

 

[JoeBowen7]

Kings and emperors not only had numerous mistresses and concubines, they were flaunted and placed in positions by their lovers. The kings of France possible may have had more children out of wedlock with lovers and mistresses than with their wives. In the Austrian Empire , aristocrats were expected to have mistresses even though the Church frowned severely upon it. Even popes had mistresses and out of wedlock children.

“There is nothing new under the Sun.”

i thought it was more than simple frowning. I thought it was a mortal sin to have extra marital affairs.

 

[Zimm3r]

Pope John XXIII disagrees with you.

papalencyclicals.net/John23/j23veterum.htm

Yes the pope that started Vatican II and the movement of the liturgy to the vernacular language. He may regard Latin as special but he hardly supports only having Latin in masses because it is somehow “mystical” and he actually wanted those who saw the mass to UNDERSTAND IT, why is the so horrible?

Do you have such recordings so we can hear His exact words?

Yes yes I do actually, stop asking stupid questions, Jesus still spoke aramaic and the recordings are called the gospels.

 

[Timothysis]

i thought it was more than simple frowning. I thought it was a mortal sin to have extra marital affairs.

You are correct. Both Louis XIV and Louis XV had to dismiss their mistresses before they died in order to receive extreme unction. The point, however, is that behavior back then was really no different from now.

 

[JoeBowen7]

Do you have such recordings so we can hear His exact words?

What type of recordings are you looking for?

 

[TEPO]

According to Pope John XXIII, in VETERUM SAPIENTIA, Priests and Church students must learn Latin -and this can never change, because Latin is the official Catholic Church’s “living” language, and Greek is not -although Greek is a required language for certain clergy to learn as well.

There is also a Papal warning that has been placed against those who teach otherwise! So we should be careful.

…but as for the Mass itself, I’ve never heard that there must be or even should be Latin Rite Masses for “all time”.

 

[ProVobis]

According to Pope John XXIII, in VETERUM SAPIENTIA, Priests and Church students must learn Latin -and this can never change, because Latin is the official Catholic Church’s “living” language, and Greek is not -although Greek is a required language for certain clergy to learn as well.

There is also a Papal warning that has been placed against those who teach otherwise! So we should be careful.

I believe you’re referring to Canon Law:

Code of Canon Law

Can. 249 - Institutionis sacerdotalis Ratione provideatur ut alumni non tantum accurate linguam patriam edoceantur, sed etiam linguam latinam bene calleant necnon congruam habeant cognitionem alienarum linguarum, quarum scientia ad eorum formationem aut ad ministerium pastorale exercendum necessaria vel utilis videatur.

Can. 249 - The program for priestly formation is to make provision that the students are not only carefully taught their native language but also that they are well skilled in the Latin language; they are also to have a suitable familiarity with those foreign languages which seem necessary of useful for their own formation or for the exercise of their pastoral ministry.

 

[JoeBowen7]

According to Pope John XXIII, in VETERUM SAPIENTIA, Priests and Church students must learn Latin -and this can never change, because Latin is the official Catholic Church’s “living” language, and Greek is not -although Greek is a required language for certain clergy to learn as well.

In the past, people said that certain things could never change. However, it turned out that a lot of things did change.

 

[Zimm3r]

According to Pope John XXIII, in VETERUM SAPIENTIA, Priests and Church students must learn Latin -and this can never change, because Latin is the official Catholic Church’s “living” language, and Greek is not -although Greek is a required language for certain clergy to learn as well.

There is also a Papal warning that has been placed against those who teach otherwise! So we should be careful.

…but as for the Mass itself, I’ve never heard that there must be or even should be Latin Rite Masses for “all time”.

Also that is for the priests, and has practical application and is also feasible. For the laity it is first not practical because people would benefit much more from their native language than Latin and it isn’t feasible. I don’t understand why people think Latin is so great, yes the clergy use it but that is for historical reasons not because it is “God’s language” or theologically better.