Pope Benedict XVI - "faith alone is true"!

[2nd_Adam]

Hence why Lutheranism is incompatible with the doctrines of the Catholic Church.

Neh. 13:14, Psalm 11:7,28:4, Isa. 3:10, 59:18, Jer. 25:14, 50:29, Ezek. 9:10, 11:21, 36:19, Hos. 4:9, 9:15, 12:2, Sir. 16:12,14 - The 2,000 year-old Catholic position on salvation is that we are saved by Jesus Christ and Him alone (cf. Acts 15:11; Eph. 2:5). But by the grace of Christ, we achieve the salvation God desires for us through perseverance in both faith and works. Many Protestants, on the other hand, believe that one just has to accept Jesus as personal Lord and Savior to be saved, and good works are not necessary (they just flow from those already saved). But these verses, and many others, teach us that our performance of good works is necessary for our salvation. Scripture also does not teach that good works distinguish those who are eternally saved from those who are not saved. Source]

I’m not sure that is what Pope Benedict is saying in regards to justification according to Paul. I read Pope Benedict’s work as agreeing with faith alone to be right with God (justification). Please read the entire teaching again, and see if that is what Pope Benedict is teaching. Of course, those who are truly justified will grow in charity and in love (1 John, James 2).

 

[EphelDuath]

I’m not sure that is what Pope Benedict is saying in regards to justification according to Paul. I read Pope Benedict’s work as agreeing with faith alone to be right with God (justification). Please read the entire teaching again, and see if that is what Pope Benedict is teaching. Of course, those who are truly justified will grow in charity and in love (1 John, James 2).

You are the one who has taken the Holy Father’s statement grossly out of context, to make it suggest that the Pope is now affirming Luther’s doctrine of Sola fide. Please read the statement in its entirety to see his intended meaning.

And to make my meaning clear, I have nothing against unity among Christians. What I oppose is giving up the ancient teachings of Christ as an appeasement in the name of unity. The Church will never accept Sola fide, and that is a fact.

 

[2nd_Adam]

The Catholic Church needs all our separated brethren to be one. To be able to worship together, pray together, serve one another.

The Church never stopped the practice of indulgences…and it is all about a play of words at this point for some…

Thing is the Church has always preached that our salvation is found alone in Jesus Christ…and we in turn must die to self and live in the life of Jesus Christ, to pray and do penance and avoid sin…to be truly brothers and sisters in the Lord.

Wasn’t it Martin Luther who said if you sin, sin lustily…oh, I have read a number of things attributed to Luther…

I don’t want to make Martin Luther the sole cause of the Protestant Reformation. I think the key issue is justfication by faith alone as revealed by the Pauline Epistles. It sure seems to me that Pope Benedict is very much in agreement of the Reformed understanding of justification… but that’s is my interpertation on his teaching.

 

[2nd_Adam]

You are the one who has taken the Holy Father’s statement grossly out of context, to make it suggest that the Pope is now affirming Luther’s doctrine of Sola fide. Please read the statement in its entirety to see his intended meaning.

And to make my meaning clear, I have nothing against unity among Christians. What I oppose is giving up the ancient teachings of Christ as an appeasement in the name of unity. The Church will never accept Sola fide, and that is a fact.

I’m not taken it out of context. I am reading the entire teaching and understanding it with the Pauline Epistles as Pope Benedict references it to the letters of Paul. This is not a James issue, but Pope Benedict’s summary of Paul’s teaching of justification. Please read it again in.

 

[EphelDuath]

I’m not taken it out of context. I am reading the entire teaching and understanding it with the Pauline Epistles as Pope Benedict references it to the letters of Paul. This is not a James issue, but Pope Benedict’s summary of Paul’s teaching of justification. Please read it again in.

The Pope is in entire accordance with the works of St. Paul. He is not in accordance with Martin Luther’s doctrine of salvation by faith alone.

 

[NotTooSmart]

FYI: Here is an article by Jimmy Akin on the subject.

Somehow, if I had to choose between Pope Benedict and Jimmy Akin versus amateur Catholic apologists over the internet in trying to determine what it is that Catholics believe, I will go with the former thank you very much.

 

[2nd_Adam]

The Pope is in entire accordance with the works of St. Paul. He is not in accordance with Martin Luther’s doctrine of salvation by faith alone.

Ahh… come on… we all know Peter was Catholic and Paul was a Calvinist.

 

[2nd_Adam]

FYI: Here is an article by Jimmy Akin on the subject.

Somehow, if I had to choose between Pope Benedict and Jimmy Akin versus amateur Catholic apologists over the internet in trying to determine what it is that Catholics believe, I will go with the former thank you very much.

I personally rather read Pope Benedict and not Jim Akin. For one, is Jim Akin considered Catholic laity, and Pope Benedict is considered to be the vicar of Christ? I’d rather get my understanding of the Catholic Faith from the top of Catholic Hierarchy.

 

[NotTooSmart]

I personally rather read Pope Benedict and not Jim Akin. For one, is Jim Akin considered Catholic laity, and Pope Benedict is considered to be the vicar of Christ? I’d rather get my understanding of the Catholic Faith from the top of Catholic Hierarchy.

It sounds to me like Jimmy and the pope are saying about the same thing.

But what do I know, me being a Protestant heretic and all that.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

The word alone was needed and the esential component of the Protestant Reformation.

But it is unscriptural and wrong.

If we don’t respond to God’s grace, we won’t go to heaven.

As Augustine said:

“Without God, we can’t. Without us, God won’t?”

And Paul said:

Gal 6
7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. 10Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.

 

[2nd_Adam]

It sounds to me like Jimmy and the pope are saying about the same thing.

But what do I know, me being a Protestant heretic and all that.

Okay, let’s look at it this way. Would I rather read a commentary by Chuck Smith telling me what John Calvin meant in his work? Or, would I rather read the actual work of John Calvin to understand what John Calvin actually believed. It’s always better to go to the source directly. How do we know Jim Akin actually knows what the Pope meant by faith alone?

 

[EphelDuath]

Okay, let’s look at it this way. Would I rather read a commentary by Chuck Smith telling me what John Calvin meant in his work? Or, would I rather read the actual work of John Calvin to understand what John Calvin actually believed. It’s always better to go to the source directly. How do we know Jim Akin actually knows what the Pope meant by faith alone?

How do we know you actually know what the Pope meant?

 

[2nd_Adam]

How do we know you actually know what the Pope meant?

Vicar of Christ… a line of Apostolic Succession, with Peter being the first Pope.

 

[rinnie]

Vicar of Christ… a line of Apostolic Succession, with Peter being the first Pope.

2nd Adam there is no where in that article that the Pope said faith ALONE is true. What the Pope said, which was also this Sundays scripture is in order to serve Christ you must put yourself last and others first.

That is what is means to become Christ Like. The Pope said it is through GRACE. Grace is a free gift from God. Grace and faith are not the same thing. Grace is something that makes Faith possible. Without grace you can have no faith. Faith is putting the Grace God gave us to work. But many People do have faith but do not put it to good work. Thats where free will comes into play.

Grace gives us the knowledge to know what we should do and faith is knowing that with the help of Grace (GOD) we can do it. But having faith does not mean that works will get done. ITs using th at faith and doing those works which means serving others.

Its like I see a person who is hungry. I know by my faith in God that someone will help that person. The bible tells me God will even feed the birds. Thats Faith. But putting faith to WORK through Grace is to say Thank-you God for letting me feed that person. Faith is not enough, Its having faith and using that faith by doing works that makes Gods Grace live through you. TO serve people is to be like CHrist. Thats what the Pope is saying.

To have true faith is to do it, and to do it has to be a work. And to have the wisdom to know that you are put here to do it is grace. They all tie into together. They cannot be ALONE.

Faith alone would be I know SOMEONE will do it. Grace and works and faith is to do it. You do not even think someone will do it, you think God put me here at this moment for this reason to do this. Its not for a reward, it’s just Grace. Grace you know is never rewarded its just the right thing to do. Its letting Christ live through you at that moment in time.

 

[2nd_Adam]

2nd Adam there is no where in that article that the Pope said faith ALONE is true. What the Pope said, which was also this Sundays scripture is in order to serve Christ you must put yourself last and others first.

That is what is means to become Christ Like. The Pope said it is through GRACE. Grace is a free gift from God. Grace and faith are not the same thing. Grace is something that makes Faith possible. Without grace you can have no faith. Faith is putting the Grace God gave us to work. But many People do have faith but do not put it to good work. Thats where free will comes into play.

Grace gives us the knowledge to know what we should do and faith is knowing that with the help of Grace (GOD) we can do it. But having faith does not mean that works will get done. ITs using th at faith and doing those works which means serving others.

Its like I see a person who is hungry. I know by my faith in God that someone will help that person. The bible tells me God will even feed the birds. Thats Faith. But putting faith to WORK through Grace is to say Thank-you God for letting me feed that person. Faith is not enough, Its having faith and using that faith by doing works that makes Gods Grace live through you. TO serve people is to be like CHrist. Thats what the Pope is saying.

To have true faith is to do it, and to do it has to be a work. And to have the wisdom to know that you are put here to do it is grace. They all tie into together. They cannot be ALONE.

Faith alone would be I know SOMEONE will do it. Grace and works and faith is to do it. You do not even think someone will do it, you think God put me here at this moment for this reason to do this. Its not for a reward, it’s just Grace. Grace you know is never rewarded its just the right thing to do. Its letting Christ live through you at that moment in time.

Again, I think you guys have missed the point of the teaching of Pope Benedict in regards to the doctrine of justification according to the Pauline Epistles. This is the main doctrine that he was teaching on, especially in response to the divide in the Protestant Reformation. I also had two central issues with the Catholic Faith which would not allow me to be Catholic according to my understanding of the Scriptures.

1. The Catholic view of justification
2. Apostolic Succession.

I no longer have a real big issue over justification with the Catholic Faith after reading the work of Pope Benedict on the topic of the doctrine of justification according to Paul. I think many of you are trying to change what the Pope is teaching on justification because it sounds too Protestant for many of you. It doesn’t matter if it sounds Protestant or Catholic. What matters in what he taught is the truth of it. The Pope said faith alone is true within the context that he stated it. The context is within the doctrine of justification according to the Epsitles of Paul withn the framework of the Catholic Faith.

BENEDICT XVI

GENERAL AUDIENCE

St. Peter’s Square
Wednesday, 19 November 2008

Saint Paul (13):

The Doctrine of Justification: from Works to Faith.

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

On the journey we are making under St Paul’s guidance, let us now reflect on a topic at the centre of the controversies of the century of the Reformation: the question of justification. How does man become just in God’s eyes? When Paul met the Risen One on the road to Damascus he was an accomplished man; irreproachable according to the justice deriving from the Law (cf. Phil 3: 6), Paul surpassed many of his contemporaries in the observance of the Mosaic Law and zealously upheld the traditions of his fathers (cf. Gal 1: 14). The illumination of Damascus radically changed his life; he began to consider all merits acquired in an impeccable religious career as “refuse”, in comparison with the sublimity of knowing Jesus Christ (cf. Phil 3: 8). The Letter to the Philippians offers us a moving testimony of Paul’s transition from a justice founded on the Law and acquired by his observance of the required actions, to a justice based on faith in Christ. He had understood that what until then had seemed to him to be a gain, before God was, in fact, a loss; and thus he had decided to stake his whole existence on Jesus Christ (cf. Phil 3: 7). The treasure hidden in the field and the precious pearl for whose purchase all was to be invested were no longer in function of the Law, but Jesus Christ, his Lord.

 

[2nd_Adam]

How do we know you actually know what the Pope meant?

How do I know you know what the Pope meant? It seems to me that the doctrine of justification according the Pauline Epistles is not necessarily a doctrine which the typical Catholic is comfortable with. If you want, please share the Catholic view of justification according to Paul in your own words. I do not want a link to the Catholic Catechism.

 

[rinnie]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

Again, I think you guys have missed the point of the teaching of Pope Benedict in regards to the doctrine of justification according to the Pauline Epistles. This is the main doctrine that he was teaching on, especially in response to the divide in the Protestant Reformation. I also had two central issues with the Catholic Faith which would not allow me to be Catholic according to my understanding of the Scriptures.

1. The Catholic view of justification

2.[SIGN] Apostolic Succession.[/SIGN]

I no longer have a real big issue over justification with the Catholic Faith after reading the work of Pope Benedict on the topic of the doctrine of justification according to Paul. I think many of you are trying to change what the Pope is teaching on justification because it sounds too Protestant for many of you. It doesn’t matter if it sounds Protestant or Catholic. What matters in what he taught is the truth of it. The Pope said faith alone is true within the context that he stated it. The context is within the doctrine of justification according to the Epsitles of Paul withn the framework of the Catholic Faith.

BENEDICT XVI

GENERAL AUDIENCE

St. Peter’s Square
Wednesday, 19 November 2008

Saint Paul (13):

The Doctrine of Justification: from Works to Faith.

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

On the journey we are making under St Paul’s guidance, let us now reflect on a topic at the centre of the controversies of the century of the Reformation: the question of justification. How does man become just in God’s eyes? When Paul met the Risen One on the road to Damascus he was an accomplished man; irreproachable according to the justice deriving from the Law (cf. Phil 3: 6), Paul surpassed many of his contemporaries in the observance of the Mosaic Law and zealously upheld the traditions of his fathers (cf. Gal 1: 14). The illumination of Damascus radically changed his life; he began to consider all merits acquired in an impeccable religious career as “refuse”, in comparison with the sublimity of knowing Jesus Christ (cf. Phil 3: 8). The Letter to the Philippians offers us a moving testimony of Paul’s transition from a justice founded on the Law and acquired by his observance of the required actions, to a justice based on faith in Christ. He had understood that what until then had seemed to him to be a gain, before God was, in fact, a loss; and thus he had decided to stake his whole existence on Jesus Christ (cf. Phil 3: 7). The treasure hidden in the field and the precious pearl for whose purchase all was to be invested were no longer in function of the Law, but Jesus Christ, his Lord.

Okay so you are saying you are cool with the Catholic teaching of Justification. Now how about Apostolic succession. Whats you problem with that. We got one problem solved lets try for the other.

 

[2nd_Adam]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

Okay so you are saying you are cool with the Catholic teaching of Justification. Now how about Apostolic succession. Whats you problem with that. We got one problem solved lets try for the other.

The doctrine of justification is so important to have faith in the gospel which saves sinners. I think you may not have an idea what the doctrine of justification is about, and how it affects you. Do you have any idea of the central point that Pope Benedict was teaching about? Please give me a summary of the work of Pope Benedict on justification according to Paul and prove me wrong.

 

[rinnie]

The doctrine of justification is so important to have faith in the gospel which saves sinners. I think you may not have an idea what the doctrine of justification is about, and how it affects you. Do you have any idea of the central point that Pope Benedict was teaching about? Please give me a summary of the work of Pope Benedict on justification according to Paul and prove me wrong.

See Adam there you go again telling me what I do and do not understand.

The Church has always taught and always will teach as the Pope teaches its from the Grace of the Holy Spirit that has the power to justify us.

It is the HS that communicates with us and that will cleanse us from our sins. Its Baptism the pouring of the HS that we receive the righteousness of Gof through Faith in Jesus Christ.

We believe if we died through Christ we can live through him.

God gave himself to us through his Spirit. By that Spirit we become communicants in the divine nature. For this reason those in whom the Spirit dewlls are divinized. That Adam is the teaching of the Pope and the Church.

I do know how the Grace of the HS affects me so please do not speak for me.

 

[2nd_Adam]

See Adam there you go again telling me what I do and do not understand.

The Church has always taught and always will teach as the Pope teaches its from the Grace of the Holy Spirit that has the power to justify us.

It is the HS that communicates with us and that will cleanse us from our sins. Its Baptism the pouring of the HS that we receive the righteousness of Gof through Faith in Jesus Christ.

We believe if we died through Christ we can live through him.

God gave himself to us through his Spirit. By that Spirit we become communicants in the divine nature. For this reason those in whom the Spirit dewlls are divinized. That Adam is the teaching of the Pope and the Church.

I do know how the Grace of the HS affects me so please do not speak for me.

You did not address the Pope’s teaching specifically on the doctrine of justification according to Paul. Please look at your response and you didn’t even mention the word justification. Please look at the Pope’s question below. His biblical answer in found in his teaching on the doctrine of justification according to Paul.

BENEDICT XVI

GENERAL AUDIENCE

St. Peter’s Square
Wednesday, 19 November 2008

Saint Paul (13):

The Doctrine of Justification: from Works to Faith.

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

On the journey we are making under St Paul’s guidance, let us now reflect on a topic at the centre of the controversies of the century of the Reformation: the question of justification. How does man become just in God’s eyes?