Pope Benedict XVI - "faith alone is true"!

[rinnie]

Adam the Pope is telling you. He is telling you that Paul is called to Christ. By giving up his old way of living and thinking his Justification detaches man from sin. Justification is the acceptance of Gods Righteousness though faith in Jesus Christ all made possible BY GRACE.

Justification is conferred in Baptism the sacrament of faith. It confroms us to the righteousness of God. Who makes us INWARDLY just by the Power of his mercy.

The Righeousness of God has be manifested apart from the Law. there is no DISTINCTION since all have fallen short of the glory of God by their sin. IT all goes back to be justified by his grace and through the redemptiom which in Jesus who God put forward as expiration by his blood to BE RECEIVED BY FAITH.

JUSTIFICATION IS GODS LOVE MADE MANIFEST IN JESUS AND GRANTED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT.

IT all comes from Grace! That Grace is the Holy Spirit guiding us.

 

[rinnie]

Now Adam it is your turn. You show me where the Pope said Faith ALONE is true. You are saying that not the Pope Adam.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Adam the Pope is telling you. He is telling you that Paul is called to Christ. By giving up his old way of living and thinking his Justification detaches man from sin. Justification is the acceptance of Gods Righteousness though faith in Jesus Christ all made possible BY GRACE.

Justification is conferred in Baptism the sacrament of faith. It confroms us to the righteousness of God. Who makes us INWARDLY just by the Power of his mercy.

The Righeousness of God has be manifested apart from the Law. there is no DISTINCTION since all have fallen short of the glory of God by their sin. IT all goes back to be justified by his grace and through the redemptiom which in Jesus who God put forward as expiration by his blood to BE RECEIVED BY FAITH.

JUSTIFICATION IS GODS LOVE MADE MANIFEST IN JESUS AND GRANTED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT.

IT all comes from Grace! That Grace is the Holy Spirit guiding us.

Okay, if you go to my signature, you will have the link of Pope Benedict’s teaching on justification based on Paul. You have wrote quite a bit, but I could not find anything in the Pope’s teaching on justification according to Paul that supports your postings. Please try to stick to what the Pope taught to support your conclusions. The Pope is specifically addressing the writing of Paul… he even quotes from the Epistles of Paul. So, please try to be disciplined and stay within the OP. The Pope is also addressing the issue which caused the Protestant Reformation which is quite specific in regards to justification by faith alone.

 

[EphelDuath]

How do I know you know what the Pope meant? It seems to me that the doctrine of justification according the Pauline Epistles is not necessarily a doctrine which the typical Catholic is comfortable with. If you want, please share the Catholic view of justification according to Paul in your own words. I do not want a link to the Catholic Catechism.

You did not answer the question. You refuse to hear Jimmy Akin’s interpretation of the Pope’s words on account of the fact that he isn’t the Pope, but you continue to say that your own interpretation of the Pope’s words are correct. Explain why you are credible but Mr. Akin is not.

 

[2nd_Adam]

You did not answer the question. You refuse to hear Jimmy Akin’s interpretation of the Pope’s words on account of the fact that he isn’t the Pope, but you continue to say that your own interpretation of the Pope’s words are correct. Explain why you are credible but Mr. Akin is not.

I have no idea who Mr. Akin is. Why do you need someone to interpert the teaching of the Pope for you? Just read the Pope’s teaching on justification according to Paul a bunch of times and tell me what Pope Benedict is teaching you. After-all, he is the current Pope. I’m not saying that I am credible and Mr. Akin is not. I am saying what the Pope taught on justification based on Paul is amazing!

 

[EphelDuath]

I have no idea who Mr. Akin is. Why do you need someone to interpert the teaching of the Pope for you?

We don’t. But by this very reason, we don’t need you to tell us what the Pope meant, when it’s plainly obvious that Mr. Akin’s explanation makes far more sense.

Just read the Pope’s teaching on justification according to Paul a bunch of times and tell me what Pope Benedict is teaching you. After-all, he is the current Pope. I’m not saying that I am credible and Mr. Akin is not. I am saying what the Pope taught on justification based on Paul is amazing!

I am as well. But what you are saying what the Pope said, and what the Pope actually said, are two far different things.

 

[rinnie]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

Again, I think you guys have missed the point of the teaching of Pope Benedict in regards to the doctrine of justification according to the Pauline Epistles. This is the main doctrine that he was teaching on, especially in response to the divide in the Protestant Reformation. I also had two central issues with the Catholic Faith which would not allow me to be Catholic according to my understanding of the Scriptures.

1. The Catholic view of justification
2. Apostolic Succession.

I no longer have a real big issue over justification with the Catholic Faith after reading the work of Pope Benedict on the topic of the doctrine of justification according to Paul. I think many of you are trying to change what the Pope is teaching on justification because it sounds too Protestant for many of you. It doesn’t matter if it sounds Protestant or Catholic. What matters in what he taught is the truth of it. The Pope said faith alone is true within the context that he stated it. The context is within the doctrine of justification according to the Epsitles of Paul withn the framework of the Catholic Faith.

BENEDICT XVI

GENERAL AUDIENCE

St. Peter’s Square
Wednesday, 19 November 2008

Saint Paul (13):

The Doctrine of Justification: from Works to Faith.

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

On the journey we are making under St Paul’s guidance, let us now reflect on a topic at the centre of the controversies of the century of the Reformation: the question of justification. How does man become just in God’s eyes? When Paul met the Risen One on the road to Damascus he was an accomplished man; irreproachable according to the justice deriving from the Law (cf. Phil 3: 6), Paul surpassed many of his contemporaries in the observance of the Mosaic Law and zealously upheld the traditions of his fathers (cf. Gal 1: 14). The illumination of Damascus radically changed his life; he began to consider all merits acquired in an impeccable religious career as “refuse”, in comparison with the sublimity of knowing Jesus Christ (cf. Phil 3: 8). The Letter to the Philippians offers us a moving testimony of Paul’s transition from a justice founded on the Law and acquired by his observance of the required actions, to a justice based on faith in Christ. He had understood that what until then had seemed to him to be a gain, before God was, in fact, a loss; and thus he had decided to stake his whole existence on Jesus Christ (cf. Phil 3: 7). [SIGN]The treasure hidden in the field and the precious pearl for whose purchase all was to be invested were no longer in function of the Law, but Jesus Christ, his Lord.

[/SIGN]

Adam explain to me what you think this means. I think that when you understand this a whole lot more will come to light for you.

 

[2nd_Adam]

[SIGN][/SIGN][/SIGN]

Adam explain to me what you think this means. I think that when you understand this a whole lot more will come to light for you.

The treasure is found in Christ alone.

For I want you to know how great a struggle I have for you and for those at Laodicea and for all who have not seen me face to face, that their hearts may be encouraged, being knit together in love, to reach all the riches of full assurance of understanding and the knowledge of God’s mystery, which is Christ, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. I say this in order that no one may delude you with plausible arguments. For though I am absent in body, yet I am with you in spirit, rejoicing to see your good order and the firmness of your faith in Christ. Therefore, as you received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in him, rooted and built up in him and established in the faith, just as you were taught, abounding in thanksgiving. - Paul

 

[2nd_Adam]

On the journey we are making under St Paul’s guidance, let us now reflect on a topic at the centre of the controversies of the century of the Reformation: the question of justification. How does man become just in God’s eyes? When Paul met the Risen One on the road to Damascus he was an accomplished man; irreproachable according to the justice deriving from the Law (cf. Phil 3: 6), Paul surpassed many of his contemporaries in the observance of the Mosaic Law and zealously upheld the traditions of his fathers (cf. Gal 1: 14). The illumination of Damascus radically changed his life; he began to consider all merits acquired in an impeccable religious career as “refuse”, in comparison with the sublimity of knowing Jesus Christ (cf. Phil 3: 8). The Letter to the Philippians offers us a moving testimony of Paul’s transition from a justice founded on the Law and acquired by his observance of the required actions, to a justice based on faith in Christ. He had understood that what until then had seemed to him to be a gain, before God was, in fact, a loss; and thus he had decided to stake his whole existence on Jesus Christ (cf. Phil 3: 7). The treasure hidden in the field and the precious pearl for whose purchase all was to be invested were no longer in function of the Law, but Jesus Christ, his Lord. - Pope Benedict

 

[Doxiemom]

I do not understand why this is so upsetting to some catholics?
Rejoice!

 

[2nd_Adam]

I do not understand why this is so upsetting to some catholics?
Rejoice! Psalm 70:4

May all who seek you
rejoice and be glad in you!
May those who love your salvation
say evermore, “God is great!”

 

[Canto]

I do not understand why this is so upsetting to some catholics?
Rejoice!

The fact that the Pope said “faith alone is true if…” is not upsetting

What is ‘upsetting’ is the insinuation that he agrees with the way Luther defined things.

+++

“The centrality of justification without works [of the law], the main object of Paul’s preaching, presents no contradiction to faith working through love; on the contrary it requires that our own faith be expressed in a life in accordance with the Spirit”

“Justified by the gift of faith in Christ, we are called to live in Christ’s love for others, because it is on this criterion that we will be judged at the end of our lives.”

Although some people see a conflict between what Saint Paul teaches and what Saint James teaches… For both Paul and James, faith working through love bears witness to the free gift of justification in Christ."

“The charisms unaware that we are limbs of one another, etc. The consequences of a **faith not incarnated in love **are disastrous”

Man obtains this union with Christ by means of faith." This faith, if it is true and real, becomes love and expresses itself in charity; without charity faith would be dead**.**

Pope Benedict XVI
catholicculture.org/news/features/index.cfm?recnum=60244
http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=14450

Robert Sungenis remarks in his book Not by Faith Alone, that “A thorough study of his epistles reveals that Paul used the word faith and its cognates over two hundred times in the New Testament, but not once did he couple them with the adjectival qualifiers alone or only. Are we to believe that though he intended to teach justification by faith alone, he was never convinced that he should employ the attributes of the word alone to express explicitly what he invariably meant? What would have curtailed him from such an important qualification if indeed the solitude of faith in regard to justification was on the forefront of his mind? A second reason that leads us to pose this critical question is that Paul used the word alone more frequently than did any other New Testament writer. Many of these instances appear right alongside the very contexts that contain teachings on faith and justification. Thus it is obvious that even while Paul was teaching about the nature of justification he was keenly aware of the word alone and its qualifying properties. This would lead us to expect that if Paul, who is usually very direct and candid in his epistles, wanted to teach unambiguously and unequivocally that man was justified by faith alone, he would be compelled to use the phrase if he thought it would make his point indisputable. Moreover, since Paul’s writings were inspired, we must also acknowledge that the Holy Spirit likewise knew of the inherent qualifying properties of the word alone but had specific reasons for prohibiting Paul from using it in connection with faith.”

 

[2nd_Adam]

The fact that the Pope said “faith alone is true if…” is not upsetting

What is ‘upsetting’ is the insinuation that he agrees with the way Luther defined things.

+++

“The centrality of justification without works [of the law], the main object of Paul’s preaching, presents no contradiction to faith working through love; on the contrary it requires that our own faith be expressed in a life in accordance with the Spirit”

“Justified by the gift of faith in Christ, we are called to live in Christ’s love for others, because it is on this criterion that we will be judged at the end of our lives.”

Although some people see a conflict between what Saint Paul teaches and what Saint James teaches… For both Paul and James, faith working through love bears witness to the free gift of justification in Christ."

“The charisms unaware that we are limbs of one another, etc. The consequences of a **faith not incarnated in love **are disastrous”

Man obtains this union with Christ by means of faith." This faith, if it is true and real, becomes love and expresses itself in charity; without charity faith would be dead**.**

Pope Benedict XVI
catholicculture.org/news/features/index.cfm?recnum=60244
http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=14450

Robert Sungenis remarks in his book Not by Faith Alone, that “A thorough study of his epistles reveals that Paul used the word faith and its cognates over two hundred times in the New Testament, but not once did he couple them with the adjectival qualifiers alone or only. Are we to believe that though he intended to teach justification by faith alone, he was never convinced that he should employ the attributes of the word alone to express explicitly what he invariably meant? What would have curtailed him from such an important qualification if indeed the solitude of faith in regard to justification was on the forefront of his mind? A second reason that leads us to pose this critical question is that Paul used the word alone more frequently than did any other New Testament writer. Many of these instances appear right alongside the very contexts that contain teachings on faith and justification. Thus it is obvious that even while Paul was teaching about the nature of justification he was keenly aware of the word alone and its qualifying properties. This would lead us to expect that if Paul, who is usually very direct and candid in his epistles, wanted to teach unambiguously and unequivocally that man was justified by faith alone, he would be compelled to use the phrase if he thought it would make his point indisputable. Moreover, since Paul’s writings were inspired, we must also acknowledge that the Holy Spirit likewise knew of the inherent qualifying properties of the word alone but had specific reasons for prohibiting Paul from using it in connection with faith.”

Okay, please tell me how Pope Benedict’s idea of faith alone is different from Martin Luther’s faith alone. Personally, I’m not interested in writings from other Catholics on the subject of faith alone such as Jim Akin or Robert Sungenis. I am really interested in what Pope Benedict taught on the doctrine of justification according to Paul.

The relationship between Paul and the Risen One became so deep as to induce him to maintain that Christ was no longer solely his life but also his very living, to the point that to be able to reach him death became a gain (cf. Phil 1: 21). This is not to say he despised life, but that he realized that for him at this point there was no other purpose in life and thus he had no other desire than to reach Christ as in an athletics competition to remain with him for ever. The Risen Christ had become the beginning and the end of his existence, the cause and the goal of his race. It was only his concern for the development in faith of those he had evangelized and his anxiety for all of the Churches he founded (cf. 2 Cor 11: 28) that induced him to slow down in his race towards his one Lord, to wait for his disciples so they might run with him towards the goal. Although from a perspective of moral integrity he had nothing to reproach himself in his former observance of the Law, once Christ had reached him he preferred not to make judgments on himself (cf. 1 Cor 4: 3-4). Instead he limited himself to resolving to press on, to make his own the One who had made him his own (cf. Phil 3: 12).

It is precisely because of this personal experience of relationship with Jesus Christ that Paul henceforth places at the centre of his Gospel an irreducible opposition between the two alternative paths to justice: one built on the works of the Law, the other founded on the grace of faith in Christ. The alternative between justice by means of works of the Law and that by faith in Christ thus became one of the dominant themes that run through his Letters: “We ourselves, who are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners, yet who know that a man is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus in order to be justified by faith in Christ, and not by works of the law; because by works of the law no one will be justified” (Gal 2: 15-16). And to the Christians of Rome he reasserts that “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they are now justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus” (Rm 3: 23-24). And he adds “we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the law” (ibid., v. 28). At this point Luther translated: “justified by faith alone”. I shall return to this point at the end of the Catechesis. First, we must explain what is this “Law” from which we are freed and what are those “works of the Law” that do not justify. The opinion that was to recur systematically in history already existed in the community at Corinth. This opinion consisted in thinking that it was a question of moral law and that the Christian freedom thus consisted in the liberation from ethics. Thus in Corinth the term “πάντα μοι έξεστιν” (I can do what I like) was widespread. It is obvious that this interpretation is wrong: Christian freedom is not libertinism; the liberation of which St Paul spoke is not liberation from good works.
Pope Benedict

 

[Canto]

POPE: “faith alone” is true,** if **it is not opposed to faith in charity,

PAUL: That Christ may dwell by faith in your hearts: that, being rooted and founded in charity… (Eph 3:17)

LUTHER: it follows that charity has been **abrogated **with the Law as a factor in our justification, and only faith is left. (Commentary on the Epistle to the Galatians)

PAUL: …and if I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. (1 Cor 13:2)

Gal 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing nor uncircumcision: but faith that works by charity. (Gal 5:6)

 

[2nd_Adam]

POPE: “faith alone” is true,** if **it is not opposed to faith in charity,

PAUL: That Christ may dwell by faith in your hearts: that, being rooted and founded in charity… (Eph 3:17)

LUTHER: it follows that charity has been **abrogated **with the Law as a factor in our justification, and only faith is left. (Commentary on the Epistle to the Galatians)

PAUL: …and if I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. (1 Cor 13:2)

Gal 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing nor uncircumcision: but faith that works by charity. (Gal 5:6)

I’m not sure any Christian has a liviing faith that is opposed to chairty and love. A dead faith is clearly taught in James. I think why the Catholic Faith makes a radical distinction could be due to the theology of baptismal regeneration. I’ve heard on Catholic radio that Catholic adults can have a conversion (born again) experience later in life, even though they were baptized as infants.

 

[EphelDuath]

I’m not sure any Christian has a liviing faith that is opposed to chairty and love. A dead faith is clearly taught in James.

That is why Martin Luther removed the Epistle of James from his Bible, calling it an “epistle of straw.”

 

[2nd_Adam]

That is why Martin Luther removed the Epistle of James from his Bible, calling it an “epistle of straw.”

Protestant theological distinctives do not rise and fall with Martin Luther. Protestant theological distinctives are determined through the Scirptures. Give Luther a break; he probably feared Catholic wrath in the worst way. If Pope Benedict can say something positive about Luther, maybe you can too. Do you really think Martin Luther will not be in Heaven?

 

[JonNC]

That is why Martin Luther removed the Epistle of James from his Bible, calling it an “epistle of straw.”

Incorrect. Luther’s NT translation of 1522 contained all the NT books. And his completed Bible, 1534, contained all 73 books that we typically in the western Bible. Two quotes regarding James from Luther:

“In a word St. John’s Gospel and his first epistle, St. Paul’s epistles, especially Romans, Galatians, and Ephesians, and St. Peter’s first epistle are the books that show you Christ and teach you all that is necessary and salvatory for you to know, even if you were never to see or hear any other book or doctrine. Therefore St. James’ epistle is really an epistle of straw, compared to these others, for it has nothing of the nature of the gospel about it.

It is a comparative statement, not a finite one. In addition, the comment only appears in the 1522 preface. IOW, he withdrew it.

“Though this epistle of St. James was rejected by the ancients, I praise it and consider it a good book, because it sets up no doctrines of men but vigorously promulgates the law of God. However, to state my own opinion about it, though without prejudice to anyone, I do not regard it as the writing of an apostle

Jon

 

[EphelDuath]

Protestant theological distinctives do not rise and fall with Martin Luther. Protestant theological distinctives are determined through the Scirptures. Give Luther a break; he probably feared Catholic wrath in the worst way. If Pope Benedict can say something positive about Luther, maybe you can too. Do you really think Martin Luther will not be in Heaven?

It is not my place to judge. Perhaps he is in Heaven, I do not know; nor do I have the intellectual or moral capacity to say if he should be. Regardless, if you’re admitting that Lutheranism therefore is false and was false at its conception, then I can heartily agree with you.

 

[JonNC]

Protestant theological distinctives do not rise and fall with Martin Luther. Protestant theological distinctives are determined through the Scirptures. Give Luther a break; he probably feared Catholic wrath in the worst way. If Pope Benedict can say something positive about Luther, maybe you can too. Do you really think Martin Luther will not be in Heaven?

One can say Lutheran theological distinctives do not rise and fall with Luther. What Protestants of different origins say or do would, of course, not rise and fall with Luther, as they were never Lutheran.

Jon