Pope Benedict XVI - "faith alone is true"!

  • Thread starter Thread starter 2nd_Adam
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
What is your motive for good works? Are you trying to merit God’s favor for your good works? Or do you walk in the good works prepared for you to do because you love God?
Saying to someone “I love you” can be hollow, Jesus said if you love me keep my commandments, so we have to do something.

Saying to Jesus " I love you " and doing whatever we like in life is an empty lying faith.

Ephesians 2:8-10

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. - Paul

Grace spurs us on to do good works, Jesus told the young rich man what he had to do, so was his faith in Jesus enough ?

Also…
James 2:17 So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself. 18 But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without works; and I will show thee, by works, my faith. 19 Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God. **24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only? **25 And in like manner also Rahab the harlot, was not she justified by works, receiving the messengers, and sending them out another way? 26 For even as the body without the spirit is dead; so also faith without works is dead.

Having Faith is imperfect as above, in red, faith is perfected by good works.
 
I must have typed too fast. I was trying to say that justification by faith alone is not in the Bible.
Remember the OP link. Pope Benedict is teaching of the doctrine of justification by the Apostle Paul (50% of the New Testament), and he agreed with Martin Luther on justification by faith alone with his own qualifier “if”. However, most Protestants have no issue with the qualifier “if”, because it does not change the truth of justification by faith alone as understood by most. Here is an article by Christiainty Today rejoicing on Pople Benedict’s faith alone paper on justification by faith alone:

christianitytoday.com/ct/2009/januaryweb-only/103-51.0.html

From Christianity Today

**How will Neuhaus’ death affect Evangelicals and Catholics together? **

*It’s a terrible setback because Cardinal Avery Dulles died a month before Neuhaus died. It was like a double-barreled blow. They were the principal leaders on the Catholic side of the dialogue. In some respects, those are two giants of the faith that you can’t replace. But God in his sovereignty, his providence, knows exactly what he’s doing.

The timing of Neuhaus’s and Dulles’s deaths is really significant when you realize that Pope Benedict on November 19 in what was otherwise a routine audience in St. Peter’s square, gave a homily on justification and fully embraced the position that Evangelicals and Catholics Together had taken [in the 1997 document, “Gift of Salvation”]. He didn’t identify it as such, but that’s what he did.

Eleven years after that document was written, the Pope, the head of the church, concluded his homily by saying Luther was right, so long as you don’t exclude charity, that is love, and the works that flow from love. Which of course none of us does.

Almost at the same time that statement was issued, the two Catholics who were willing to say they agreed with what the reformers meant when they said sola fide died. It’s as if “Okay, you finished your task. The big issue that divided us in the Reformation has now been settled, so you guys can come home and rest.”

It’s a little bit eerie. The two of them going just weeks apart does not suggest to me that God does not care about the continuing work of ECT but that the first major breakthrough had been accomplished. It’s amazing timing.*

*Do the Catholics in ECT right now take the same position on justification as Neuhaus and Dulles?

Oh yes. There are probably 12 to 13 other Catholic [leaders] who hold that position. And now of course the Pope holds it, so it almost doesn’t matter who else holds it, in the way the Catholic Church is structured.

All shifts that take place in Catholicism happen very gradually. Vatican II was an exception. That’s not the way in which theological development occurs within the catholic communion. It occurs in a gradual process in which the pope, and in this case, a cardinal and a couple priests see a way to express something differently and they would argue that there’s no change.

Of course, if you compare it with Trent, there’s a profound change. But they would see it as the development of doctrine. And if it’s contrary to some church council — as this was, clearly — then nothing happens immediately.

Cardinal [Edward] Cassidy took “The Gift of Salvation”] back to the Vatican in 1997 and was teaching it to the bishops. It sort of percolated through the church, and the Pope, who — significantly — was an Augustinian, picked it up. And then a decade later, it ended up in the catechism. That’s just the way change occurs in the Catholic Church.*
 
Did you know that Paul is using the word justification as a forensic (legal) definition which is different usage than how James is using the word justification. What Paul and James teach are compatible and are not in contradiction. Remember, the Apostle Paul wrote half of the New Testament with a clear teaching of the doctrine of justification which is the heart of the Christian gospel. James is adressing a kind of faith which is demonic and does not save a sinner, which is a dead faith and comes from the flesh and not from God.

This is an important article to understand our differences of the doctrine of justitfication:

gracesermons.com/robbeeee/imputed.html

Imputed Righteousness:
The Evangelical Doctrine

R.C. Sproul

At the heart of the controversy between Roman Catholic and Reformation theology is the nature of justification itself. It is a debate not merely about how or when or by what means a person is justified, but about the very meaning of justification itself.

Reformed theology insists that the biblical doctrine of justification is forensic in nature. What does this mean? In the popular jargon of religion, the word forensic is used infrequently. The word is not foreign, however, to ordinary language. It appears daily in the news media, particularly with reference to criminal investigations and trials. We hear of “forensic evidence” and “forensic medicine” as we listen to the reports of criminologists, coroners, and pathologists. Here the term forensic refers to the judicial system and judicial proceedings.
The term forensic is also used to describe events connected with public speaking. Schools hold forensic contests or events that feature formal debates or the delivery of speeches.

The link between these ordinary usages of forensic and its theological use is that justification has to do with a legal or judicial matter involving some type of declaration. We can reduce its meaning to the concept of legal declaration.

The doctrine of justification involves a legal matter of the highest order. Indeed it is the legal issue on which the sinner stands or falls: his status before the supreme tribunal of God.

When we are summoned to appear before the bar of God’s judgment, we face a judgment based on perfect justice. The presiding Judge is himself perfectly just. He is also omniscient, fully aware of our every deed, thought, inclination, and word. Measured by the standard of his canon of righteousness, we face the psalmist’s rhetorical question that hints at despair: “If you, LORD, should mark iniquities, …who could stand?” (Psalm 130:3 NKJV).

The obvious answer to this query is supplied by the Apostle Paul: “There is none righteous, no, not one…” (Romans 3:10).

God commands us to be holy. Our moral obligation coram Deo (before the face of God) is to live perfect lives. One sin mars that obligation and leaves us naked, exposed before divine justice. Once a person sins at all, a perfect record is impossible. Even if we could live perfectly after that one sin, we would still fail to achieve perfection. Our sin may be forgiven, but forgiveness does not undo the sin. The consequences of the sin may be removed or ameliorated, but the sin itself is not undone.

The Bible speaks figuratively about the sin being washed, cleansed, healed, and blotted out. The sin, which is scarlet, may become white as snow, the crimson may become like wool, in God’s sight. The sin may be cast into the sea of forgetfulness or purged with hyssop. But these images describe an expiation for sin and divine forgiveness or remission of our sin. Our record does not change, but our guilt does. Hence Paul declares, “Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin” (Romans 4:8 NKJV).

In our redemptive forgiveness God does not charge us with what we owe. He does not count our sins against us. If he did, no one (except Jesus) would ever escape his just wrath. No one but Christ would be able to stand before God’s judgment.

Again, God in his grace may regenerate us, sanctify us, and even glorify us. He might make us perfect in the future. He really does change the elect and will eventually make the justified totally and completely righteous. But even the perfected saint in heaven was once a sinner and has a track record that, apart from the grace of justification, would send him to hell.

Thus, where temporal creatures are concerned, everyone who is once imperfect is always imperfect with respect to the whole scope of the person’s individual history. This is what Thomas Aquinas meant when he asserted that justification is always of the impious (iustificatio impii). Righteous people have no need of justification, even as the healthy have no need of a physician.

Both Roman Catholic and Reformation theology are concerned with the justification of sinners. Both sides recognize that the great human dilemma is how unjust sinners can ever hope to survive a judgment before the court of an absolutely holy and absolutely just God.

If we define forensic justification as a legal declaration by which God declares a person just and we leave it at that, we would have no dispute between Rome and Evangelicalism. Though Rome has an antipathy to the concept of forensic justification, this antipathy is directed against the Protestant view of it.

In chapter 7 of the sixth session of the Council of Trent, Rome declared: “…not only are we reputed but we are truly called and are just, receiving justice within us, each one according to his own measure…”

Here Rome is jealous to distinguish between being reputed just and actually being just, yet it is still true that God calls the baptismally regenerated just. That is, for Rome justification is forensic in that justification involves God’s legal declaration. A person is justified when God declares that person just. The reason or the ground of that declaration differs radically between Roman Catholic and Reformed theology. But both agree that a legal declaration by God is made.

Nor is it sufficient merely to say that Rome teaches that justification means “to make just,” while Protestants teach that justification means “to declare just.” For Rome God both makes just and declares just. For Protestants God both makes just and declares just – but not in the same way. For Rome the declaration of justice follows the making inwardly just of the regenerate sinner. For the Reformation the declaration of justice follows the imputation of Christ’s righteousness to the regenerated sinner.

R. C. Sproul is an author, chairman of Ligonier Ministries, and professor at the Orlando campus of Reformed Theological Seminary
 
God commands us to be holy. Our moral obligation coram Deo (before the face of God) is to live perfect lives. One sin mars that obligation and leaves us naked, exposed before divine justice. Once a person sins at all, a perfect record is impossible.** Even if we could live perfectly after that one** sin, we would still fail to achieve perfection. Our sin may be forgiven, but forgiveness does not undo the sin. The consequences of the sin may be removed or ameliorated, but the sin itself is not undone.
Thankyou for posting this, so how if you die un-prepared will you gain eternal life? all I can say is"Thank God " for Purgatory, you know ? the wood the straw ?
 
Remember the OP link. Pope Benedict is teaching of the doctrine of justification by the Apostle Paul (50% of the New Testament), and he agreed with Martin Luther on justification by faith alone with his own qualifier “if”. However, most Protestants have no issue with the qualifier “if”, because it does not change the truth of justification by faith alone as understood by most. Here is an article by Christiainty Today rejoicing on Pople Benedict’s faith alone paper on justification by faith alone:

christianitytoday.com/ct/2009/januaryweb-only/103-51.0.html

From Christianity Today

**How will Neuhaus’ death affect Evangelicals and Catholics together? **

*It’s a terrible setback because Cardinal Avery Dulles died a month before Neuhaus died. It was like a double-barreled blow. They were the principal leaders on the Catholic side of the dialogue. In some respects, those are two giants of the faith that you can’t replace. But God in his sovereignty, his providence, knows exactly what he’s doing.

The timing of Neuhaus’s and Dulles’s deaths is really significant when you realize that Pope Benedict on November 19 in what was otherwise a routine audience in St. Peter’s square, gave a homily on justification and fully embraced the position that Evangelicals and Catholics Together had taken [in the 1997 document, “Gift of Salvation”]. He didn’t identify it as such, but that’s what he did.

Eleven years after that document was written, the Pope, the head of the church, concluded his homily by saying Luther was right, so long as you don’t exclude charity, that is love, and the works that flow from love. Which of course none of us does.*

Almost at the same time that statement was issued, the two Catholics who were willing to say they agreed with what the reformers meant when they said sola fide died. It’s as if “Okay, you finished your task. The big issue that divided us in the Reformation has now been settled, so you guys can come home and rest.”

It’s a little bit eerie. The two of them going just weeks apart does not suggest to me that God does not care about the continuing work of ECT but that the first major breakthrough had been accomplished. It’s amazing timing.

Do the Catholics in ECT right now take the same position on justification as Neuhaus and Dulles?

Oh yes. There are probably 12 to 13 other Catholic [leaders] who hold that position. And now of course the Pope holds it, so it almost doesn’t matter who else holds it, in the way the Catholic Church is structured.

All shifts that take place in Catholicism happen very gradually. Vatican II was an exception. That’s not the way in which theological development occurs within the catholic communion. It occurs in a gradual process in which the pope, and in this case, a cardinal and a couple priests see a way to express something differently and they would argue that there’s no change.

Of course, if you compare it with Trent, there’s a profound change. But they would see it as the development of doctrine. And if it’s contrary to some church council — as this was, clearly — then nothing happens immediately.

Cardinal [Edward] Cassidy took “The Gift of Salvation”] back to the Vatican in 1997 and was teaching it to the bishops. It sort of percolated through the church, and the Pope, who — significantly — was an Augustinian, picked it up. And then a decade later, it ended up in the catechism. That’s just the way change occurs in the Catholic Church.
What Pope Benedict said is this:

Faith must be with Charity.

What YOU are saying is this:

Faith alone with Charity.

Correct?😃
 
What Pope Benedict said is this:

Faith must be with Charity.

What YOU are saying is this:

Faith alone with Charity.

Correct?😃
I’m not sure what is the difference. Do you mind sharing how this changes things?
 
Hmmmm…and I said I wouldn’t post here anymore…🤷

For what it’s worth, here’s the Pope’s general audience on faith from September 14th:

youtube.com/watch?v=eRH4BKCPvXU&feature=channel_page

Pax†
Thanks for the youtube. Another wonderful truth spoken by Pope Benedict. I believe 1 John supports what the Pope taught. True saving faiths manifest itself with a growing love for God and growing love for our neighbors, resulting is action of acts of love through the power of the Spirit of God who dwells in us.
 
“Faith alone with works” is an oxymoron. It’d be like if I said “I want black coffee, with plenty of cream and sugar.” Even when you said what you think “faith alone” meant, you admitted that it wasn’t actually the same Sola fide doctrine taught by Luther.
 
“Faith alone with works” is an oxymoron. It’d be like if I said “I want black coffee, with plenty of cream and sugar.” Even when you said what you think “faith alone” meant, you admitted that it wasn’t actually the same Sola fide doctrine taught by Luther.
Again, please share the difference of Pope Benedict’s idea of faith alone and the faith alone proclaimed by the Protestant Reformers. Please understand the faith that saves is never alone from manifestation of good works done by God in and through us. Please study 1 John and James 2 in distinguishing the difference between true saving faith and a dead faith which is demonic.
 
Again, please share the difference of Pope Benedict’s idea of faith alone and the faith alone proclaimed by the Protestant Reformers. Please understand the faith that saves is never alone from manifestation of good works done by God in and through us. Please study 1 John and James 2 in distinguishing the difference between true saving faith and a dead faith which is demonic.
Once again, the Reformers were of the opinion that a man cannot do anything to affect his salvation but have faith in God. This is why Luther rejected the Epistle of James, because it said that “faith without works is dead.”
 
Once again, the Reformers were of the opinion that a man cannot do anything to affect his salvation but have faith in God. This is why Luther rejected the Epistle of James, because it said that “faith without works is dead.”
We are all commanded to repent and have faith in the gospel. However, I see repentance that leads to eternal life, and saving faith as being gifts from God, granted to the Elect of God. Do you see your repentance and your faith to be generated from yourself apart from God? We all agree that good works is evidence of saving faith. However, do you see good works as being done by self, or do you see good works are being done by God through and in us. I do see sanctification to be a synergistic act between the redeemed and God.
 
=EphelDuath;5749289]Once again, the Reformers were of the opinion that a man cannot do anything to affect his salvation but have faith in God.
Correctly, man can do nothing to affect his salvation without Grace. And even Faith is a gift of Grace. Man can, however, affect his damnation, by choosing to reject Grace by not doing the good works he knows, because of faith, Christ calls him to do. Therefore, we are justified by grace alone through faith in Christ. And if we have a true, living faith, there must be good works that follow. As Luther said,
Faith is a living, restless thing. It cannot be inoperative. We are not saved by works; but if there be no works, there must be something amiss with faith’
This is why Luther rejected the Epistle of James, because it said that “faith without works is dead.”
“Though this epistle of St. James was rejected by the ancients, I praise it and consider it a good book, because it sets up no doctrines of men but vigorously promulgates the law of God. However, to state my own opinion about it, though without prejudice to anyone, I do not regard it as the writing of an apostle;
Luther

Luther’s opinion of James is not nearly so simplistic as you portray. In fact, I would contend your comments are far more caricature than fact or reality. Even your phrase that Luther “rejected” James isn’t factual. He translated it, included it in his translation, and often preached from it throughout his lfe.

I offer link should you wish to see another view of Luther’s position on James.
ntrmin.org/Luther%20and%20the%20canon%202.htm#a6

Jon
 
Correctly, man can do nothing to affect his salvation without Grace. And even Faith is a gift of Grace. Man can, however, affect his damnation, by choosing to reject Grace by not doing the good works he knows, because of faith, Christ calls him to do. Therefore, we are justified by grace alone through faith in Christ.
Through faith and works in Christ. See: James 2:24, Matthew 7:21-23.
Luther’s opinion of James is not nearly so simplistic as you portray. In fact, I would contend your comments are far more caricature than fact or reality. Even your phrase that Luther “rejected” James isn’t factual. He translated it, included it in his translation, and often preached from it throughout his lfe.
As I already told you, he moved the Epistle of James and the Book of Apocalypse to the “apocrypha” section of the Bible in order to indicate that he did not think they were divinely inspired. And you did not address my point about how he added a word to Romans 3:28 that wasn’t in any manuscript that existed at the time.
 
=EphelDuath;5749428]Through faith and works in Christ. See: James 2:24, Matthew 7:21-23.
Lutherans and Catholics confess together in the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification
15.In faith we together hold the conviction that justification is the work of the triune God. The Father sent his Son into the world to save sinners. The foundation and presupposition of justification is the incarnation, death, and resurrection of Christ. Justification thus means that Christ himself is our righteousness, in which we share through the Holy Spirit in accord with the will of the Father. Together we confess: **By grace alone, in faith in Christ’s saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works.**11]
16.All people are called by God to salvation in Christ. Through Christ alone are we justified, when we receive this salvation in faith. Faith is itself God’s gift through the Holy Spirit who works through word and sacrament in the community of believers and who, at the same time, leads believers into that renewal of life which God will bring to completion in eternal life.
I shall leave it to you, within your tradition, how you interpret this.
As I already told you, he moved the Epistle of James and the Book of Apocalypse to the “apocrypha” section of the Bible in order to indicate that he did not think they were divinely inspired. And you did not address my point about how he added a word to Romans 3:28 that wasn’t in any manuscript that existed at the time.
You are mistaken. The NT canon in Luther’s translation is organized in exactly the same way as any western Bible of his time, or ours.

As for Romans 3:18, Luther explained why, in German, “alleine” is necessary in translation. “Alone” does not appear in English translations because the adverb isn’t necessary. Luther:
…it conveys the sense of the text – if the translation is to be clear and vigorous it belongs there. I wanted to speak German, not Latin or Greek, since it was German I had set about to speak in the translation.”
The below link includes a list of all the other translators before Luther that used “sola” in their translations.
beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2006/02/luther-added-word-alone-to-romans-328.html

Jon
 
Lutherans and Catholics confess together in the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification

I shall leave it to you, within your tradition, how you interpret this.

You are mistaken. The NT canon in Luther’s translation is organized in exactly the same way as any western Bible of his time, or ours.

As for Romans 3:18, Luther explained why, in German, “alleine” is necessary in translation. “Alone” does not appear in English translations because the adverb isn’t necessary. Luther:

The below link includes a list of all the other translators before Luther that used “sola” in their translations.
beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2006/02/luther-added-word-alone-to-romans-328.html

Jon
Correcting myself: Luther did put the historically disputed NT books to the end.
 
I know that this declaration of Pope Benedict is some kind of a relief for Lutherans but there is a catch, and the catch is how it was written. The IF word made the whole explanation it preceded to look like Pope Benedict wanted to convey that the Pauline teachings of faith alone is the only way to receive grace. Of course we all agree that when God wants to save with grace, He can, IF he is there to let us know.

We are under the assumption about Grace but we all know that Grace can only comes from God, like when Christ pardoned the crucified criminal before he died God was there personally to tell him, he shall be in paradise). We are debating the essence of faith which if, no good works will not matter. How can you justify your action when you see a beggar you think of helping because your faith tells you that it is a good thing to help, but did not do it anyway? Your faith in this situation is intact but your obedience to God’s most basic commandment of loving your neighbor is in question because you failed to help…

But if God declares, you are fit to be saved, then you are saved. If you are assuming only that your faith is what it all takes to save you through His grace then it is not a sure thing because you do not know what God thinks. St. Paul relationship with Christ was personal because of his interaction with Jesus Christ during that time. So, What Pope Benedict was trying to say is, if you have faith in God, yes you can be saved if God wants you to be saved. However, nobody knows he or she can be saved by faith alone, and that is why we all need to work for it, gainings God’s grace, because it is not for us to know we can be saved, only God.

Perhaps if you are in the mountains alone and your faith is great, then you have all the chance to be saved. But then, if you are interacting with your neighbors, you have to do more because not only the teachings of faith that is involved but Jesus taught us also how to love our neighbors as ourselves.
 
I know that this declaration of Pope Benedict is some kind of a relief for Lutherans but there is a catch, and the catch is how it was written. The IF word made the whole explanation it preceded to look like Pope Benedict wanted to convey that the Pauline teachings of faith alone is the only way to receive grace. Of course we all agree that when God wants to save with grace, He can, IF he is there to let us know.

We are under the assumption about Grace but we all know that Grace can only comes from God, like when Christ pardoned the crucified criminal before he died God was there personally to tell him, he shall be in paradise). We are debating the essence of faith which if, no good works will not matter. How can you justify your action when you see a beggar you think of helping because your faith tells you that it is a good thing to help, but did not do it anyway? Your faith in this situation is intact but your obedience to God’s most basic commandment of loving your neighbor is in question because you failed to help…

But if God declares, you are fit to be saved, then you are saved. If you are assuming only that your faith is what it all takes to save you through His grace then it is not a sure thing because you do not know what God thinks. St. Paul relationship with Christ was personal because of his interaction with Jesus Christ during that time. So, What Pope Benedict was trying to say is, if you have faith in God, yes you can be saved if God wants you to be saved. However, nobody knows he or she can be saved by faith alone, and that is why we all need to work for it, gainings God’s grace, because it is not for us to know we can be saved, only God.

Perhaps if you are in the mountains alone and your faith is great, then you have all the chance to be saved. But then, if you are interacting with your neighbors, you have to do more because not only the teachings of faith that is involved but Jesus taught us also how to love our neighbors as ourselves.
I would have to respectfully disagree with your statement, that the Pope was trying to say something which needed your help. It seems you have added to the actual work of Pope Benedict. I think the Pope clearly taught on the doctrine of justification based on the Epistles of Paul with clarity and impact. It seems that many Catholics have been hostile to the words “faith alone” for generations, that when the Pope agreed on faith alone and truth of Luther, even with the word if… it’s difficult for most Catholics to receive the Pope’s teaching on faith alone.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top