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CHESTERTONRULES
Guest
Baptism is an act of faith. He could have died believing in Jesus but never acting on it.
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2nd_Adam
Guest
How can you believe that infant baptism is an act of faith?
H
hawkeye
Guest
It’s an act of faith on the part of those that require it for the infant, no less an act of faith on the centurion, who requested healing for his servant, whos “Faith amazed Jesus.”
If the Centurion can request “through faith” a healing for his servant, then surely we can request Baptism for our children.
Did the servant know he was going to be healed ? did the infant know it was going to be Baptized ? …no.
C
CHESTERTONRULES
Guest
Infant baptism is an act of faith on the part of the parents.
In Constantine’s case it is an act of faith on his part.
H
Holly3278
Guest
C
CHESTERTONRULES
Guest
Didn’t see your answer until after I posted mine. Yours is better!
C
Chancellare
Guest
This is where your theology got muddled.
Let me help you with Sequential Analysis:
- God loves man
- God sends His grace through the Holy Spirit
- Man responds with Faith, Hope and Love
Many believed that Luther did not start this kind of theology. It’s not only unGerman-like, it’s illogical, which is an insult to any German.
C
Chancellare
Guest
What’s with you guys and the word ‘alone’?
As If the bible teaches the virtue of ‘alone’ just one bit.
C
Chancellare
Guest
Heck,
Wrong!
Even Ron understands that if you don’t respond to Grace, you cannot be saved!
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2nd_Adam
Guest
I think God sent His Son into the world to die makes more sense for number 2. Do you see the gospel to be God’s rescuse mission of sinners? How successful is God’s rescue mission of sinner? This verse is the heart of the gospel message.
2 Corinthians 5:21
For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
R
ron77nyc
Guest
The man or woman who repents immediately before death is like the men in the parable of the workers in the field. He shows up to get paid without doing any work. He gets the same reward as the men who worked all day or part of the day because the master is generous, not because they earned it. That’s all I’m trying to say. I’m not making a theological analysis.
Titus 3:5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,
C
Chancellare
Guest
And not because they had faith to begin with. The men who did not work but received wages were there because they responded to God’s call inspite of their lack of faith.
That’s where your theology missed the mark.
Therefore your ‘faith alone’ as taught by Luther cannot save you.
R
ron77nyc
Guest
You need faith + works. If you have no works then you only have faith. That’s faith alone.
If you’re saying that responding to the Lord’s invitation is the work that is necessary to be saved then we are in agreement. I think Luther also taught his people to do that. If he really meant faith alone then no one would go to his church. They would just sit home on Sunday.
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2nd_Adam
Guest
Early Church Fathers on being justifiied by faith
Ignatius of Antioch
"His cross, and his death, and his resurrection, and the faith which is through him, are my unpolluted muniments; and in these, through your prayers, I am willing to be justified (Epistle to Philadelphians). [Note: “muniments” are title deeds, documents giving evidence of legal ownership of something.]
Athanasius
It would, of course, have been unthinkable that God should go back upon His word [Genesis 2:17] and that humanity, having transgressed, should not die. it was unthinkable that God, the Father of Truth, should go back on His word regarding death [Genesis 2:17] in order to ensure our continued existence. He could not make Himself a liar. What, then, was God to do?. The Logos perceived that our perishing condition could not abolished except through death. Yet He Himself, as the Logos, being immortal and the Father’s Son, could not die. For this reason, therefore, He assumed a body capable of death, in order that this body, through belonging to the Logos Who is above all, might become a sufficient exchange in dying for all. His body, remaining imperishable through His indwelling, would thereafter put an end to perishing for all others as well, by the grace of the resurrection. By surrendering to death the body which He had taken, as an offering and sacrifice free from every stain, He immediately abolished death for His human brothers by the offering of the equivalent. For naturally, since the Logos of God was above all, when He offered His own temple and bodily instrument as a substitute for the life of all, He fulfilled by death all that was required. (On the Incarnation of the Logos, 6-7, 9)
To provide against this also, He sends His own Son, and He becomes Son of Man, by taking created flesh; that, since all were under sentence of death, He, being other than them all, might Himself for all offer to death His own body; and that henceforth, as if all had died through Him, the word of that sentence might be accomplished (for all died in Christ), and all through Him might thereupon become free from sin and from the curse which came upon it, and might truly abide for ever, risen from the dead and clothed in immortality and incorruption. (Athanasius, Orations Against The Arians 2:69)
For man, being in Christ, was quickened. For this was why the Word was united to man, namely, that against man the curse might no longer prevail. This is the reason why they record the request made on behalf of mankind in the seventy-first Psalm: Give the King Your judgment, O God (Psalm 72:10): asking that both the judgment of death which hung over us may be delivered to the Son, and that He may then, by dying for us, abolish it for us in Himself. This was what He signified, saying Himself, in the eighty-seventh Psalm: Your indignation lies hard upon me (Psalm 88:7). For He bore the indignation which lay upon us (On Luke 10:22, ch.2)
Clement of Rome
“We also, being called through God’s will in Christ Jesus, are not justified through ourselves, neither through our own wisdom or understanding, or piety, or works which we have done in holiness or heart, but through faith” (Epistle to Corinthians).
Polycarp
"I know that through grace you are saved, not of works, but by the will of God, through Jesus Christ (Epistle of Philippians).
Ignatius of Antioch
"His cross, and his death, and his resurrection, and the faith which is through him, are my unpolluted muniments; and in these, through your prayers, I am willing to be justified (Epistle to Philadelphians). [Note: “muniments” are title deeds, documents giving evidence of legal ownership of something.]
Athanasius
It would, of course, have been unthinkable that God should go back upon His word [Genesis 2:17] and that humanity, having transgressed, should not die. it was unthinkable that God, the Father of Truth, should go back on His word regarding death [Genesis 2:17] in order to ensure our continued existence. He could not make Himself a liar. What, then, was God to do?. The Logos perceived that our perishing condition could not abolished except through death. Yet He Himself, as the Logos, being immortal and the Father’s Son, could not die. For this reason, therefore, He assumed a body capable of death, in order that this body, through belonging to the Logos Who is above all, might become a sufficient exchange in dying for all. His body, remaining imperishable through His indwelling, would thereafter put an end to perishing for all others as well, by the grace of the resurrection. By surrendering to death the body which He had taken, as an offering and sacrifice free from every stain, He immediately abolished death for His human brothers by the offering of the equivalent. For naturally, since the Logos of God was above all, when He offered His own temple and bodily instrument as a substitute for the life of all, He fulfilled by death all that was required. (On the Incarnation of the Logos, 6-7, 9)
To provide against this also, He sends His own Son, and He becomes Son of Man, by taking created flesh; that, since all were under sentence of death, He, being other than them all, might Himself for all offer to death His own body; and that henceforth, as if all had died through Him, the word of that sentence might be accomplished (for all died in Christ), and all through Him might thereupon become free from sin and from the curse which came upon it, and might truly abide for ever, risen from the dead and clothed in immortality and incorruption. (Athanasius, Orations Against The Arians 2:69)
For man, being in Christ, was quickened. For this was why the Word was united to man, namely, that against man the curse might no longer prevail. This is the reason why they record the request made on behalf of mankind in the seventy-first Psalm: Give the King Your judgment, O God (Psalm 72:10): asking that both the judgment of death which hung over us may be delivered to the Son, and that He may then, by dying for us, abolish it for us in Himself. This was what He signified, saying Himself, in the eighty-seventh Psalm: Your indignation lies hard upon me (Psalm 88:7). For He bore the indignation which lay upon us (On Luke 10:22, ch.2)
Clement of Rome
“We also, being called through God’s will in Christ Jesus, are not justified through ourselves, neither through our own wisdom or understanding, or piety, or works which we have done in holiness or heart, but through faith” (Epistle to Corinthians).
Polycarp
"I know that through grace you are saved, not of works, but by the will of God, through Jesus Christ (Epistle of Philippians).
L
Lapell
Guest
Like James says in his letter: “Faith by itself is dead if it doesn’t cause you to do any good things” To say “I believe in Jesus Christ” and think that just saying it with your mouth is enough is just illusion! If believing in Jesus makes you show in deeds as well as in words that you adhere in His teachings, then you’re talking!
H
hawkeye
Guest
From the above it looks like we have to act on faith, faith alone looks very risky, like a dogdy insurance policy.
Actions speak louder than words.
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2nd_Adam
Guest
For those who believe that personal good works is necessary to enter Heaven, please tell me why God should let you into Heaven?
C
Canto
Guest
Dodgy insurance policy
St James bangs on about faith without works and how it is dead and that thus we are justified by works (not alone) and that works perfect/consummate faith.
St Paul says a similar thing when he speaks of our faith being rooted in charity and that if we have all faith so that we could move mountains, move mountains, but have not charity we are nothing.
Christ commanded us above all to love, on this the whole law rests. If we don’t love as St John says, we don’t know God.
When asked how to enter into eternal life Christ said - keep the commandmants.
Good works (not to be confused with works of the old law without grace) have been created for us to walk in. If we don’t walk in them ???
We don’t do good works to score brownie points, to be able to say when we die “Okay God cough up - let me in to heaven now.”
We do good works because we love God and he loves us.
John 3:21 But he that doth truth cometh to the light, that his works may be made manifest: because they are done in God.
Matt 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels: and then will he render to every man according to his works.
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his works.
Rev 20:13 And they were judged, every one according to their works.
Rev 22:12 Behold, I come quickly: and my reward is with me, to render to every, man according to his works.
John 14:12 Amen, amen, I say to you, he that believeth in me, the works that I do, he also shall do: and greater than these shall he do… If you love me, keep my commandments.
“We are justified by our works, not by our words.” St. Clement Of Rome, “First Epistle to the Corinthians,” c. 96 A.D.
“The way of light, then, is as follows. If anyone desires to travel to the appointed place, he must be zealous in his works.” St. Barnabas, “Epistle of St. Barnabas,” c. 70 A.D.
“Each man goes to everlasting punishment or salvation according to the value of his actions.” St. Justin Martyr, “First Apology,” c. 160 A.D.
“Let those who are not found living as He taught, be understood not to be Christians, even though they profess with the lips the teachings of Christ. For it is not those who make profession, but those who do the works, who will be saved.” St. Justin Martyr, c. 160 A.D.
“The matters of our religion lie in works, not in words.” St. Justin Martyr, “First Apology,” c. 160 A.D.
“This shows that transgressions are blotted out and that reconciliation is made for sins. But who are the ones who have reconciliation made for their sins - except those who believe on His name and propitiate His countenance by good works?” St. Hippolytus, “The Extant Works And Fragments Of Hippolytus,” c. 205 A.D.
Even if we have all faith (1 Cor 13:2) God doesn’t force us to do good works of course, on account of free will.
C
Chancellare
Guest
Ron, I think we are in agreement. Faith alone is not true.
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2nd_Adam
Guest
The wall as he says in his Letter to the Ephesians between Israel and the Gentiles, was no longer necessary: it is Christ who protects us from polytheism and all of its deviations; it is Christ who unites us with and in the one God; it is Christ who guarantees our true identity within the diversity of cultures. The wall is no longer necessary; our common identity within the diversity of cultures is Christ, and it is he who makes us just. Being just simply means being with Christ and in Christ. And this suffices. Further observances are no longer necessary. For this reason Luther’s phrase: “faith alone” is true, if it is not opposed to faith in charity, in love. Faith is looking at Christ, entrusting oneself to Christ, being united to Christ, conformed to Christ, to his life. And the form, the life of Christ, is love; hence to believe is to conform to Christ and to enter into his love. So it is that in the Letter to the Galatians in which he primarily developed his teaching on justification St Paul speaks of faith that works through love (cf. Gal 5: 14).Ron, I think we are in agreement. Faith alone is not true.
** Pope Benedict XVI **
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