Pope Benedict XVI - "faith alone is true"!

[JohnnyBeth]

This is an excellent question and observation, and I thank you for asking it. For the same reason this happens in the natural order. Good parents can generate a child, but that child may grow up and depart from the values with which he was raised. You are right, the church does throw the seed, and some of it does fall on stony ground. However, part of the Father drawing a person is when they are born into a Catholic family. Jesus said “suffer the little children to come unto Me, and hinder them not”. When the parents bring the child to Christ in baptism.this is in conformity with His desires, even if they are not model parents.

Just like in the natural order, children need to grow in faith. They are disposed, through baptism, to instruction in the ways of God, but some don’t receive the instruction,a nd some of us outright rebel.

When this happens, it shows that the seed can be planted, germinate, and be choked out by weeds, or overcome by the cares of this life.

The NT is written about adults, and much of it’s contents pre-dated the event of believers wanting to bring their children. The statements we see there about believing before baptism apply to adults.

Even baptized adults can fall from the faith. Contrary to the modern Reformed doctrine, this does not mean they were never saved.

So along with “infusing” grace, water baptism now teaches us or prepares us to be taught; is this a form of osmosis from God? Is this Catholic doctrine or your own?
"They are disposed, through baptism, to instruction in the ways of God, but some don’t receive the instruction, and some of us outright rebel"

Now here is the Biblical and realistic answer. Baptism is an outward profession of an inward professed faith in Jesus in which the person identifies themself with the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. The reason most people that are water baptised and do not hold to a faith they professed is because it was lip service and not heart service. That the Biblical fact Jack!

As you can see from to very different perspectives; you must search the Bible and see which of us tells what God has already said and decide for yourself.

 

[guanophore]

This IMO, is very dangerous theology when it comes to our affections for God and His glorious gospel. What makes your faith any different than other world religions of works to enter Heaven?

A good point, and a good question. It is not the nature of the faith, but the One in Whom it is placed. Those who place their faith in Christ enter through the Door.

Those that do not know Him will be judged according to how well they walk in the light of the knowledge that is given to them. It is a lot harder to walk through the Door when you don’t see it!

 

[guanophore]

What degree of obedience is required to remain in Christ? When you are disobedient, do you move from the kingdom of light back into the kingdom of darkness?

More good questions!

100% obedience is required. He is the vine, we are the branches. Without Him, we can do nothing. When we do not walk according to his ways, we are like grass that is burned, like salt that has lost it’s flavor, like light under a bushel.

Sin separates us from God. The nature of sin does not change because we justified by faith.

Those who walk in sin hate the light. Those who love Him, follow His commandments.

It is possible to have one’s name blotted out of the book of Life. As has been stated, if we deny Him, He will deny us.

 

[JohnnyBeth]

No codes. One has free will to reject what the Holy Spirit has made available.

[bookofconcord.org/fc-ep.php#IV. Good Works.](http://www.bookofconcord.org/fc-ep.php#IV. Good Works.)

As a Lutheran, I’ve been accused of far worse - by Catholics and evangelicals here. You are welcome to your opinion, after less than 200 posts.

Jon

Doesn’t matter what my opinion is; does it? There is One whose opinion is far more superior; He had something to say about the fence sitter. Just a friendly warning; that’s all.

 

[2nd_Adam]

A good point, and a good question. It is not the nature of the faith, but the One in Whom it is placed. Those who place their faith in Christ enter through the Door.

Those that do not know Him will be judged according to how well they walk in the light of the knowledge that is given to them. It is a lot harder to walk through the Door when you don’t see it!

Matthew 7:14

For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

 

[JohnnyBeth]

More good questions!

100% obedience is required. He is the vine, we are the branches. Without Him, we can do nothing. When we do not walk according to his ways, we are like grass that is burned, like salt that has lost it’s flavor, like light under a bushel.

Sin separates us from God. The nature of sin does not change because we justified by faith.

Those who walk in sin hate the light. Those who love Him, follow His commandments.

It is possible to have one’s name blotted out of the book of Life. As has been stated, if we deny Him, He will deny us.

That eliminates everyone except for Jesus and Mary if your Catholic. So we may as well pack up and call it hell.

 

[2nd_Adam]

More good questions!

100% obedience is required. He is the vine, we are the branches. Without Him, we can do nothing. When we do not walk according to his ways, we are like grass that is burned, like salt that has lost it’s flavor, like light under a bushel.

Sin separates us from God. The nature of sin does not change because we justified by faith.

Those who walk in sin hate the light. Those who love Him, follow His commandments.

It is possible to have one’s name blotted out of the book of Life. As has been stated, if we deny Him, He will deny us.

Who is 100% obedient?

For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

For those who cannot provide their own 100% obedience required for Heaven, God did provide the One who is 100% obedient for us… to the praise of His glorious grace found in His Son. The righteousness of Christ is an alien righteousness found outside of our own imperfect obedience.

 

[JonNC]

Doesn’t matter what my opinion is; does it? There is One whose opinion is far more superior; He had something to say about the fence sitter. Just a friendly warning; that’s all.

So, you are saying that my “fence-sitting” is evidence of a luke-warm faith? If so, how would you know the intensity of my faith, or how I respond to His gifts which I recieve through grace?
I think my expressions here are in keeping with the Lutheran Confessions which I have quoted? Are the Lutheran Confessions fence-sitting?

Jon

 

[guanophore]

It appears that many Catholics believe that personal good works is necessary and the basis for your reconcilation to God.

It is very interesting to read this 2nd Adam, because I just read about 10 posts by Catholics, all saying the opposite.

One has to wonder if you read the Bible the same way you read the posts. You approach it with pre-conceived notions, and anything you read that might indicate otherwise, you ignore.

All Catholics believe that we are justified by grace, through faith. This is Catholic Teaching. If you find a Catholic who believes otherwise, then they are not properly catechized.

The blood of Christ is the only basis upon which any of us can come into right relationship with God.

I am curious to learn why you think otherwise.

 Therefore, it appears to be a system of good works to make it to Heaven.

I am sure it must appear that way to you. This is what you are looking to find, so that is what you see. Catholics, on the contrary, have made it clear in this thread that we can do nothing apart from His grace, and that any works done apart from grace, through faith, are of no value.

 That is the basis of all world religions apart from biblical Christianity which is really about what God has done for us in Christ, as compared to what we have to do to merit our own salvation. The Catholic Faith for many catholics is a system of earning your way to salvation by your own personal obedience done in Christ.

I know this is true, because I used to be one of those Catholics. I did not understand what the Church believed and taught.

Please read my two links on my signature to see the difference of the fine line of truth and error. The Pope and Professor speak wonderful things if you are able to receive it.

Amen!

The members of this thread have also said some wonderful things, if you are able to receive it.

 

[JohnnyBeth]

So, you are saying that my “fence-sitting” is evidence of a luke-warm faith? If so, how would you know the intensity of my faith, or how I respond to His gifts which I recieve through grace?
I think my expressions here are in keeping with the Lutheran Confessions which I have quoted? Are the Lutheran Confessions fence-sitting?

Jon

If you believe that a person is justified, declared righteous before God, then can forfeit what God has done, then you are sitting on the fence; for through that admission you nullify what God has said in His word. You either believe all of what He said concerning His work in perfecting a justified person or you hold onto a theology that says a man can remove himself from the Fathers hand or the love of Christ. If that what you church teaches; one can be indwelt, then unindwelt, then indwelt back and forth, then that would be a luke warm theology. Frankly; I have no idea what your 24 confessions are; i only see what you have posted.

 

[JonNC]

If you believe that a person is justified, declared righteous before God, then can forfeit what God has done, then you are sitting on the fence; for through that admission you nullify what God has said in His word. You either believe all of what He said concerning His work in perfecting a justified person or you hold onto a theology that says a man can remove himself from the Fathers hand or the love of Christ. If that what you church teaches; one can be indwelt, then unindwelt, then indwelt back and forth, then that would be a luke warm theology. Frankly; I have no idea what your 24 confessions are; i only see what you have posted.

It is what the Lutheran reformers taught and confessed. I believe it is consistent with the historic Church as well. As you said earlier, “The only human free will a human has is the free-will to chose evil from God’s perspective.” Indeed that choice, that free will, remains even with the regenerate.

Jon

 

[Canto]

Context my friend! The entire Bible is the proper context of biblical doctrine. Just admit it, Protestants have better biblical theology than Catholics since the Bible is not sufficent revelation for the Catholic. If you want to prove that the Catholic Faith is the One True Faith, you will need to appeal to extra-biblical revelation. Your only hope is apostolic succession. However, if you debate biblical doctrine within Scirpture alone, you will always lose the debate and will be on the short end of a biblical debate. But, I admire your passion… iron sharpening iron, right? The Catholic Faith is not based on biblical revelation as being sufficient and complete.

Do you hold onto the tradtions that were handed down wether orally or in written form - or just the written form ???

As for extra biblical - nowhere does it say we are justifed by faith alone, nowhere does it say ignore tradition and just use the bible alone, ignore the unity of the pillar and foundation of truth and have various Protestant denominations all teaching different things, and not just on the ‘small’ issues.

 

[JohnnyBeth]

It is very interesting to read this 2nd Adam, because I just read about 10 posts by Catholics, all saying the opposite.

One has to wonder if you read the Bible the same way you read the posts. You approach it with pre-conceived notions, and anything you read that might indicate otherwise, you ignore.

All Catholics believe that we are justified by grace, through faith. This is Catholic Teaching. If you find a Catholic who believes otherwise, then they are not properly catechized.

The blood of Christ is the only basis upon which any of us can come into right relationship with God.

I am curious to learn why you think otherwise.

I am sure it must appear that way to you. This is what you are looking to find, so that is what you see. Catholics, on the contrary, have made it clear in this thread that we can do nothing apart from His grace, and that any works done apart from grace, through faith, are of no value.

I know this is true, because I used to be one of those Catholics. I did not understand what the Church believed and taught.

Amen!

The members of this thread have also said some wonderful things, if you are able to receive it.

Who are you kidding besides yourself? Try not working those sacraments and don’t receive that infused saving grace, then tell us it is all of God. You sold yourself, but that is about it.

Work#1 (water baptism that saves - a performance of an act)
1987 The grace of the Holy Spirit has the power to justify us, that is, to cleanse us from our sins and to communicate to us “the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ” and through Baptism:34

Work#2a (Justification is also santification-good works justification)
1989 The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus’ proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."38 Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.39

Work#2b
2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, ***we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. ***Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God’s wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.

2011 The charity of Christ is the source in us of all our merits before God. **(Double talk?)**Grace, by uniting us to Christ in active love, ensures the supernatural quality of our acts and consequently their merit before God and before men. The saints have always had a lively awareness that their merits were pure grace.

After earth’s exile, I hope to go and enjoy you in the fatherland, but I do not want to lay up merits for heaven. I want to work for your love alone. . . . In the evening of this life, I shall appear before you with empty hands, for I do not ask you, Lord, to count my works. All our justice is blemished in your eyes. I wish, then, to be clothed in your own justice and to receive from your love the eternal possession of yourself.63

2008 The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace. The fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then follows man’s free acting through his collaboration, so that the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful. Man’s merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit.

1994 Justification is the most excellent work of God’s love made manifest in Christ Jesus and granted by the Holy Spirit. It is the opinion of St. Augustine that “the justification of the wicked is a greater work than the creation of heaven and earth,” because "heaven and earth will pass away but the salvation and justification of the elect . . . will not pass away."43 He holds also that the justification of sinners surpasses the creation of the angels in justice, in that it bears witness to a greater mercy.

Augustine taught Justification apart from works and apart from santification.

 

[JohnnyBeth]

Do you hold onto the tradtions that were handed down wether orally or in written form - or just the written form ???

As for extra biblical - nowhere does it say we are justifed by faith alone, nowhere does it say ignore tradition and just use the bible alone, ignore the unity of the pillar and foundation of truth and have various Protestant denominations all teaching different things, and not just on the ‘small’ issues.

It is implicitly stated throughout Scripture, “faith alone” apart form works, which is justification before God. How do you believe the OT saints were saved? What are the oral traditions you speak of that were handed down and not written in Scripture?

 

[JohnnyBeth]

It is what the Lutheran reformers taught and confessed. I believe it is consistent with the historic Church as well. As you said earlier, “The only human free will a human has is the free-will to chose evil from God’s perspective.” Indeed that choice, that free will, remains even with the regenerate.

Jon

Begs the question; how will you stay saved? The new nature, wich is given by God can and does chose good in the sight of God; sice it is His work. So how do you stay saved?

 

[Canto]

It is implicitly stated throughout Scripture, “faith alone” apart form works, which is justification before God.

Justifed by works and *not *by faith alone says St James
This clearly contradicts what you have just said
It’s the only time sola fide is used in the bible - to condmen it

How do you believe the OT saints were saved?

Not by faith alone period

David had faith but comited adultery
He later repented

Abraham had faith and works
The works worked with his faith and perfected it

Rahab - her works and faith went together

What are the oral traditions you speak of that were handed down and not written in Scripture?

One example is the canon of scripture decided at the Council of Rome in 382 AD by the Bishop of Rome (aka Papa, Pope) Damascus. Books were included by the Church that were in conformity with, not in contradtion of, the oral tradtion.

 

[Canto]

Catholic theology is still in error since it cannot distinguish between a forensic justification revealed in the 13 Epistles of Paul, and the transforming work of the Spirit making us like Christ in sanctification. James chapter 2 is so important when understood in the light of all of Scripture. It is what Martin Luther described in the Catholic way of salvation… however, the just will live by faith in what God has done for us in Christ. It is good to make our calling and election sure, and to strive for progress in personal obedience and christlikenss through the Spirit. However, this is not our basis for our standing before God for those who are in Christ Jesus.

St James says (in full accord with St Paul - they are completley on the same page) we are justified by works and not by faith alone. A direct and true statement, yet some Protestants have to come up with all this mumbo-jumbo to try and get around it.

Matt 16:26 – rendered according to our works
Rom 2:2-8 - eternal life by perseverance in good works
2Cor 5:10 - recompense accord to what did in body
2Cor 11:15 - their end will correspond to their works
1Pet 1:17 - God judges impartially according to one’s works
Rev 20:12-13 - dead judged according to their works
Col 3:24-25 - will receive due payment for whatever you do

Matt 7:21 - not everyone saying “Lord, Lord” will inherit eternal life
Matt 24:13 - those who persevere to the end will be saved
Rom 11:22 - remain in his kindness or you will be cut off
Phil 2:12 - work out your salvation in fear and trembling
1Cor 9:27 - drive body for fear of being disqualified
1Cor 10:11-12 - those thinking they are secure may fall
2Tim 2:11-23 - must hold out to the end to reign with Christ – depart from iniquity
Heb 10:26-27 - if sin after receiving truth, judgment remains
John 6:54 eat his flesh and drink his blood and be raised up in the last days - have eternal life
Mark 16:16 - baptised of water and Spirit (John 3:5) to be saved

Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his works. 7 To them indeed who, according to patience in good work, seek glory and honour and incorruption, eternal life:

Gal 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing nor uncircumcision: but faith that worketh by Charity [Good works].

Col 1:10 That you may walk worthy of God, in all things pleasing; being fruitful in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God:
23 If so ye continue in the faith, grounded and settled, and immoveable from the hope of the gospel which you have heard, which is preached in all the creation that is under heaven: whereof I Paul am made a minister.
24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the Church:

Rom:8:17 And if sons, heirs also; heirs indeed of God and joint heirs with Christ: yet so, if we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified with him.
Philippians 1:29 For unto you it is given for Christ, not only to believe in him, but also to suffer for him:

 

[ccolley2]

It appears that many Catholics believe that personal good works is necessary and the basis for your reconcilation to God. ** Therefore, it appears to be a system of good works to make it to Heaven. That is the basis of all world religions apart from biblical Christianity which is really about what God has done for us in Christ, as compared to what we have to do to merit our own salvation.** The Catholic Faith for many catholics is a system of earning your way to salvation by your own personal obedience done in Christ. Please read my two links on my signature to see the difference of the fine line of truth and error. The Pope and Professor speak wonderful things if you are able to receive it.

The old “works salvation” argument always shows up when a Protestant is losing an argument. You wield it like it is a sword. Just because Catholicism LOOKS like a “works-gets-you-to-heaven” religion doesn’t mean that it IS. It just means that you are NOT listening to what all the Catholics on this entire thread and the Pope, and the Professor on your own link have said. We do nothing to merit salvation. We can not “earn” our way into heaven. And we will be judged on our deeds. We believe, however, that “we always have reason to hope in Christ.”

I understand that believing, without a shadow of a doubt that you are guaranteed a ticket to heaven by your “faith alone” is a very comforting thought. I am sure that it helps you sleep at night, but the truth is that salvation is not that simple. It says in Matthew 27 that we will be judged on our works. Remember the Sheep and the Goats? St. Paul, whom you love to quote so much, did not believe in faith alone. He says, “we must run the good race and fight the good fight so that we can win the crown” and even though we don’t have any guarantees," we always have reason to hope in Christ".

As for being “bible Christians”…There was a Church long before there was a bible and there will be a church if every bible in the world is totally destroyed. But there will NEVER be a bible without a church.Without the Church no one can know the Spirit of error from the Spirit of Truth(1John4:6). Because no passage of scripture is open to personal interpretation(2Pet1:20).

CC

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Sowing and reaping; for the Christian it is rewards…for the pagan it is degree of hell. A Christian cannot forfeit their salvation as I believe you are wrongly implying; perhaps because you do not understand the concept from a Biblical perspective?

Oh really.

Please explain these verses:

Hebrews 3:12-14 “Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; but exhort one another daily, while it is called today, lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ** if **we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end.”

1 Corinthians 10:12 “Therefore let him who thinks he is standing, beware, that he does not fall”.

2 Chronicles 15:2 “If you search for him, he will let himself be found by you; but **if **you leave him, he will leave you”.

2 Timothy 2:12 “**If **we endure, we shall also reign with Him; **If **we deny Him, He also will deny us”.

Matthew 10:22 "And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But **he who endures **to the end will be saved.

Matthew 24:13 "But **he who endures **to the end shall be saved.

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father.”

2 Peter 2:20-21 “They were made free from the evil in the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. But** if **they return to evil things and those things control them, then it is worse for them than it was before. Yes, it would be better for them to have never known the right way than to know it and to turn away from the holy teaching that was given to them.”

Hebrews 10:26-27 “For **if **we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.”

Hebrews 10:29 “How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by those who have spurned the Son of God, profaned the blood of the covenant by which they were sanctified, and outraged the Spirit?”

 

[PJM]

=2nd Adam;5783614]Who is 100% obedient?

For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

For those who cannot provide their own 100% obedience required for Heaven, God did provide the One who is 100% obedient for us… to the praise of His glorious grace found in His Son. The righteousness of Christ is an alien righteousness found outside of our own imperfect obedience.

Christ desires “100% Obedience” but it’s NOT a demand!

The key’s are to npt die with unrepented / unconfessed MORTAL SIN! Tha is a one way ticket to hell!

Die with lesser [veniel sins] and you’ll spend time in the “soul wash” [purgatory] but you will get to heaven!

Love and prayers

Pat