Pope Benedict XVI - "faith alone is true"!

[JonNC]

Begs the question; how will you stay saved? The new nature, wich is given by God can and does chose good in the sight of God; sice it is His work. So how do you stay saved?

Through the work of the Holy Spirit. Through the growth in grace one receives in sanctification. Through the sanctifying grace received in the Sacrament of the Altar- His true body and blood given and shed for the remission of sins, and through Holy Absolution received following confession of sins, and the hearing of His word.
These things, gifts of Grace from God, help us maintain faith, grow in grace, and resist the work of the devil.

Jon

 

[2nd_Adam]

Do you hold onto the tradtions that were handed down wether orally or in written form - or just the written form ???

As for extra biblical - nowhere does it say we are justifed by faith alone, nowhere does it say ignore tradition and just use the bible alone, ignore the unity of the pillar and foundation of truth and have various Protestant denominations all teaching different things, and not just on the ‘small’ issues.

Pope Bendidict confirmed that we are justified by faith alone with the if qualifier.

 

[guanophore]

Context my friend! The entire Bible is the proper context of biblical doctrine.

Actually, there is no such thing as “biblical doctrine”. It is a modern innovation created by the children of the Reformers. This was necessary because the separation from the Apostolic succession left them without the paradosis. All that was left was the Holy Scripture, produced by, for, and about Catholics. From it, modern evangelicals attempt to extrapolate what they believe are the Teaching of the Apostles. The results are ideas the Apostles would recognize as heresies.

Just admit it, Protestants have better biblical theology than Catholics since the Bible is not sufficent revelation for the Catholic.[/qutoe]

Careful, 2nd, your anti-catholic hostility is leaking!

Theology was never intended to come from the “bible alone”. Revelation came through Jesus Christ, and He appointed and trained and gifted His Apostles as the custodians of it. The bible is fully sufficient for Catholics. It sufficientlyfulfills it’s function, which is to be profitable for teaching and training in righteousness. You will notice, though, that the gift and duty of teaching was given by Christ to the Church - to individual persons who had been ordained to the task. In the hands of those who are so gifted, scripture is properlyunderstood, and supports the doctrine committed to the Church.
2nd Adam;5782932:

If you want to prove that the Catholic Faith is the One True Faith, you will need to appeal to extra-biblical revelation.

This is true. Jesus is not confined to the pages of a book, however Holy.

Not only that, but it was “extrabiblical revelation” that got you that Bible in the first place. Unless you have been able to locate, in the holy writ, the list of books that belongs in the Bible.

Your only hope is apostolic succession. However, if you debate biblical doctrine within Scirpture alone, you will always lose the debate and will be on the short end of a biblical debate.

It is true that separating the Bible from the apsotolic teaching that produced it does, ended, place one on the “short end”. Jesus, in the pages of that Holy Writing, directs us to take such disputes where?

 But, I admire your passion... iron sharpening iron, right? The Catholic Faith is not based on biblical revelation as being sufficient and complete.

The Catholic faith is not based upon the bible at all, having pre-existed the Bible. All of Catholic doctrine comes from Jesus. The Christian faith is not a “religion of the book” as some erroneously believe.

 

[guanophore]

Except for a minor point; they don’t believe it. I suppose you know what their true definition of justification is; which is not apart from santification in the sense that we are declared righteous, our justification, then we are santified. They put the 2 together in the sense that santification is part of justification, when the Bible teaches otherwise. I suspect you already know this.

Perhaps you could explain this further? I can’t understand what you are saying here. Can you point me to some Catholic documents that will give an example of what you are saying?

Do you not agree that being justified means to be declared righteous? It seems like you are saying that the Catholic Church teaches something different?

Thanks in advance for your help.

 

[guanophore]

Sowing and reaping; for the Christian it is rewards…for the pagan it is degree of hell.

Can you provide some scripture that says Christians will not be held responsible for sinning against God?

A Christian cannot forfeit their salvation as I believe you are wrongly implying; perhaps because you do not understand the concept from a Biblical perspective?

Perhaps you are preaching “a different gospel”? Scripture is clear that we can foreit salvation. It would be more appropriate to say that we are separated from the inheritance that has been laid up for us. This is what Paul means when he talks about being disqualified, or running and not winning the prize.

 

[Canto]

Pope Bendidict confirmed that we are justified by faith alone with the if qualifier.

if…the liberation of which St Paul spoke is not liberation from good works…Paul knows that in the twofold love of God and neighbour the whole of the Law is present and carried out. Thus in communion with Christ, in a faith that creates charity, the entire Law is fulfilled. We become just by entering into communion with Christ who is Love. We shall see the same thing in the Gospel next Sunday, the Solemnity of Christ the King. It is the Gospel of the judge whose sole criterion is love. What he asks is only this: Did you visit me when I was sick? When I was in prison? Did you give me food to eat when I was hungry, did you clothe me when I was naked? And thus justice is decided in charity. Thus, at the end of this Gospel we can almost say: love alone, charity alone. But there is no contradiction between this Gospel and St Paul. It is the same vision, according to which communion with Christ, faith in Christ, creates charity. And charity is the fulfilment of communion with Christ. Thus, we are just by being united with him and in no other way. - Pope Benedict

“And the Protestant slogan salvation by faith alone becomes the Catholic slogan salvation by faith, hope, and charity (alone)…Without going into the subject of what kind of justification is being discussed here (which is misunderstood by most Evangelical commentators on Catholicism, see below7), the phrase faith alone is itself rejected. Even though Protestants can give the phrase orthodox theological content, the phrase itself is unbiblical. If we wish to conform our theological language to the language of the Bible, we need to conform our usage of the phrase faith alone to the use of that phrase in the Bible…”

1. On the subject of the kind of justification discussed in James 2:24, Trent quotes this verse only once and then applies it to progressive, not initial justification, so one does not have to do good works to get into a state of justification; good works are fruits of the state of justification, not causes for entering it. The fact this passage does not refer to initial justification should be obvious since the justification of Abraham it refers to occurred years after Abraham was first justified by faith in Genesis 12, when By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place which he was to receive as an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was to go (Heb. 11:8). Thus James 2:24 refers to later, progressive justification, by which one grows in righteousness, not initial justification, when ones sins are forgiven.

James Akin
ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/SOLAFIDE.htm

if indeed…

GRACE AND JUSTIFICATION

1. What is justification?

1987-1995
2017-2020

Justification is the most excellent work of God’s love. It is the merciful and freely-given act of God which takes away our sins and makes us just and holy in our whole being. It is brought about by means of the grace of the Holy Spirit which has been merited for us by the passion of Christ and is given to us in Baptism. Justification is the beginning of the free response of man, that is, faith in Christ and of cooperation with the grace of the Holy Spirit.

1. What is the grace that justifies?

1996-1998
2005
2021

That grace is the gratuitous gift that God gives us to make us participants in his trinitarian life and able to act by his love. It is called habitual, sanctifying or deifying grace because it sanctifies and divinizes us. It is supernatural because it depends entirely on God’s gratuitous initiative and surpasses the abilities of the intellect and the powers of human beings. It therefore escapes our experience.

1. What other kinds of grace are there?

1999-2000
2003-2004
2023-2024

Besides habitual grace, there are actual graces (gifts for specific circumstances), sacramental graces (gifts proper to each sacrament), special graces or charisms (gifts that are intended for the common good of the Church) among which are the graces of state that accompany the exercise of ecclesial ministries and the responsibilities of life.

1. What is the relationship between grace and human freedom?

2001-2002

Grace precedes, prepares and elicits our free response. It responds to the deep yearnings of human freedom, calls for its cooperation and leads freedom toward its perfection.

1. What is merit?

2006-2010
2025-2026

In general merit refers to the right to recompense for a good deed. With regard to God, we of ourselves are not able to merit anything, having received everything freely from him. However, God gives us the possibility of acquiring merit through union with the love of Christ, who is the source of our merits before God. The merits for good works, therefore must be attributed in the first place to the grace of God and then to the free will of man.

1. What are the goods that we can merit?

2010-2011
2027

Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods, suitable for us, can be merited in accordance with the plan of God. No one, however, can merit the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion and justification.

1. Are all called to Christian holiness?

2012-2016
2028-2029

All the faithful are called to Christian holiness. This is the fullness of Christian life and the perfection of charity and it is brought about by intimate union with Christ and, in him, with the most Holy Trinity. The path to holiness for a Christian goes by way of the cross and will come to its fulfillment in the final resurrection of the just, in which God will be all in all.

Taken from the Compedium of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, created under the presidency of Cardinal Ratzinger and promulgated by him as Pope Benedict XVI.

 

[guanophore]

Sounds like code for you believe one can loose what they never had; saving grace.

No, we accept the Apostles’ teaching, which was that saving grace does not complete it’s work in us during this lifetime.

Without perseverance until the end, saving grace does not avail the individual. One is free to trade one’s inheritance for a bowl of stew, or a life of debauchery. The Apostles taught that people who live a life of sin do not inherit the Kingdom of God.

 

[guanophore]

I wouldn’t expect anything less from you; you are what is known as a “fence sitter”. Neither hot nor cold.

I find this to be a grossly disrespectful comment to Jon, in addition to being false.

I am not sure why you are here, or what you hope to accomplish, but I can assure you that insulting other members of good faith is not the way to get it.

It is required here that you be courteous to others, even if you do not agree with them. You have not been here long enough to make this kind of assessment of this member. Even if you had been, posting it publicly is inappropriate.

 

[guanophore]

The only human free will a human has is the free-will to chose evil from God’s perspective.

This is a false statement

Rom. 3 - “Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD; ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.” “THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE, WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING,” “THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS”; “WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS”; “THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD, DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS, AND THE PATH OF PEACE THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN.” “THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES.”

You are taking this passage out of context. If you look at the source, you will see there are two groups of people mentioned in that Psalm, the faithless, and those who are righteous by faith. This portion is taken from the portion on unbelievers. To ignore the remainder of the Psalm, which makes it clear that everyone does not choose to do evil.

Jer. 13 - Because of the magnitude of your iniquity Your skirts have been removed And your heels have been exposed. "Can the Ethiopian change his skin Or the leopard his spots? {Then} you also can do good Who are accustomed to doing evil.

Again a reference to the unbelieving and disobedient.When you look at the context, it will be clear that this does not apply to the righteous, who choose to do good.

Grace alone via faith alone in God alone. Unless God changes your nature; the old nature will always chose what is evil in His sight; no matter how good you think you are or if you believe that God is not fair.

This is a false statement. You have revealed a deficient understanding of the nature of humanity, the effects of original sin, and the nature of free will. if you are able to muster enough courtesy to remain here, you may be able to learn why what you have been given to believe is inconsistent with what the Apostles believed and taught.

 

[guanophore]

Okay, baptized Catholics do fall from the faith and apostate. Reformed Christians who persevere to the end by the saving grace of God never apostate.

I suppose you can provide scriptural support for such an assertion?

The Elect Christian never apostates to the praise of God’s sustaining grace.

true, all apostasy is a gross disrespect to our Creator. It does Him no praise.

 How can someone be saved and not be saved?

Such a question results from a deficient understanding of salvation.

 Do Catholics move from the kingdom of light to the kingdom of darkness multiple times in their lifetime?

Unfortunately, yes.

  Are you united to Christ for part of life, then move to union with Adam, and back again and again... depending of how welll you conform yourself to the moral law of God?

Once we are sealed with the promised HS, if we then profane the blood of the covenant, our last state is actually worse than the first.

Being outside of a state of grace results from disobedience and rebellion based in faithlessness.

It is not a matter of us conforming ourselves to God. God is at work in us to will and to do. It is our part to cooperate with grace. Those that don’t fall from grace.

The perseverance of the saints means that all those who are truly born again will be kept by God’s power and will persevere as Christians until the end of their lives, and that only those who persevere until the end have been truly born again.

I am sure this is what you have been taugtht on this matter. It appears you are using an extrabibilical source.

If our religion be of our own getting or making, it will perish; and the sooner it goes, the better; but if our religion is a matter of God’s giving, we know that He shall never take back what He gives, and that, if He has commenced to work in us by His grace, He will never leave it unfinished. C.H. Spurgeon

A good example of Reformed Evangelical Theology.
Another extrabiblical source.

For non-reformed theologies..."at the end of the day, the security of the believer finally rests with the believer. For those in the opposite camp [Reformed], the security of the believer finally rests with God -- and that, I suggest, rightly taught, draws the believer back to God himself, to trust in God, to a renewed faith that is of a piece with trusting him in the first place."   D.A. Carson

This is a simplified misrepresentation of non-reformed theologies.

It does not reflect Catholic Theology, which is non-reformed.

When we speak of “once saved, always saved,” we are not taking into account the full scope of salvation. We have been saved (justification), was are being saved (sanctified), and we will one day be saved (glorified). You cannot claim to have been “saved” (justified) unless you are being sanctified. Jesus Christ is Savior and Lord. Michael Horton from Putting the Amazing Back into Grace (pg. 171)

I am not sure what point you are trying to make here. Are you in agreement with this statement?

 

[guanophore]

So along with “infusing” grace, water baptism now teaches us or prepares us to be taught; is this a form of osmosis from God?

It seems that you do not believe that God’s Spirit is poured into us. Is that the case?

Being born again of water and Spirit (water) does not “teach” us anything. It washes away our sin, seals us in the promised HS, and transfers us fropm the Kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of light.

how are you taught by God? Do you consider it a form of osmosis?

Is this Catholic doctrine or your own?

The Catholic Church teaches that, unless you are born again, you cannot see the kingdom. Those newly baptized are “babes in Christ” and need milk, not solid food. They are at the very beginning of their faith walk, but are now disposed, as a result of being washed and regenerated, to receive Apostolic Teaching.
"guanophore:

"They are disposed, through baptism, to instruction in the ways of God, but some don’t receive the instruction, and some of us outright rebel"

Now here is the Biblical and realistic answer. Baptism is an outward profession of an inward professed faith in Jesus

I am looking forward to finding out where you find this in the Bible.

It does not sound at all consistent with what the Apostles taught.

in which the person identifies themself with the death, burial and resurrection of Christ.

Some of this is biblical, except that it is not the person themselves who creates this identification, but the Spirit. It is the Spirit that joins us to Him in baptism in His death and resurrection. This is a supernatural event that cannot be accomplished by a person.
It only happens by grace through faith. It is not a human work.

The reason most people that are water baptised and do not hold to a faith they professed is because it was lip service and not heart service. That the Biblical fact Jack!

Not only do I disagree, but I dont think you can find a bible verse that says that either! Can you give me an example of a baptized person in Scripture that was only doing lip service, and fell away as a result?

As you can see from to very different perspectives; you must search the Bible and see which of us tells what God has already said and decide for yourself.

Such an attitude is contrary to the Apostolic Teaching. Such an attitude is also responsible for the plethora of divisions evident in the Church today. The Aposltes taught that we should receive the Truth from themselves, and those they authorized to teach it. They never taught anyone that they were to ignore the deposit of faith given to the Church, and try to extract doctrine in isolation by themselves.

 

[guanophore]

That eliminates everyone except for Jesus and Mary if your Catholic. So we may as well pack up and call it hell.

You asked about the standards of following commandments, did you not?

How did you get from that to “eliminating” people?

Are you telling me you don’t think it is possible for people to follow the commandments of God?

 

[adstrinity]

Does this then mean that more Protestants will become Catholic?

 

[guanophore]

What degree of obedience is required to remain in Christ? When you are disobedient, do you move from the kingdom of light back into the kingdom of darkness?

100%

Jesus said that those who love Him will keep His commandments. The Apostles taught that the only thing that matters is faith, working through love. Love is the fulfillment of the Law.

Who is 100% obedient?

Luke 1:5-6
5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.

6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

Anyone walking in grace by faith can be 100% obedient.

For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

For those who cannot provide their own 100% obedience required for Heaven,

You are misunderstanding, 2nd. the ability to obey God’s law cannot be on a “provide their own” basis. Grace alone is the basis. I thought we were in agreement on this point? Did you not read the Joint Declaration? As you can see, all those persons who were obedient whose stories are mentioned in Heb. 11 did not “provide their own”. They accomplished all these things by faith.

God did provide the One who is 100% obedient for us… to the praise of His glorious grace found in His Son. The righteousness of Christ is an alien righteousness found outside of our own imperfect obedience.

I don’t think you will find the righteousness of Christ described as “alien” in scripture. This is yet another extra-biblical concept - a modern innovation that departs from the Apostolic Teaching. On the contrary, the Apostles taugth “in Him we live, and move, and have our being”. Does that sound alien to you?

The Apostles taught “work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for God is at work in you to will and to do His good pleasure”. Does that sound alien?

 

[guanophore]

So, what will you reap and based on what source? There are rewards in Heaven for those who are in Christ. However, God is still the source of Christians who will be rewarded for their faithfulness done in Christ. In essence, God is crowning his own work done in us… grace upon grace.

Ok, let me see if I can understand this. When a Reformed Evangelical trusts in Christ,and does good works, he is rewarded in heaven, and it is God crowning His own work.

But when a Catholic believes that by grace, through faith, one can follow His commandments, and strives to walk blamelessly in His sight, our efforts are only filthy rags?

 

[guanophore]

So, you are saying that my “fence-sitting” is evidence of a luke-warm faith? If so, how would you know the intensity of my faith, or how I respond to His gifts which I recieve through grace?
I think my expressions here are in keeping with the Lutheran Confessions which I have quoted? Are the Lutheran Confessions fence-sitting?

Jon

I commend you brother, for charitable and measured responses to rude and inapprorpriate ad hominem attacks. Your deportment demonstrates your heart.

 

[guanophore]

Who are you kidding besides yourself? Try not working those sacraments and don’t receive that infused saving grace, then tell us it is all of God. You sold yourself, but that is about it.

This is very confusing. Can you help me understand what you are saying?

What does "working those sacraments’ mean?

I am even more confused by the next phrase. You are saying “try not to receive that infused saving gradc, then tell us it is all of God”.

How can anyone receive grace some where else but God? Without recieiving His grace, how can anyone be saved? I don’t get your point.

Work#1 (water baptism that saves - a performance of an act)
1987 The grace of the Holy Spirit has the power to justify us, that is, to cleanse us from our sins and to communicate to us “the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ” and through Baptism:34

Can you please explain how receiving the free gift of salvation from God is “work # 1”?

How do people “work” to be born again of water and spirit? I don’t understand this at all. It seems clear to me in scripture that it is NOT by works of righteousness that we have done, but according to his mercy He has saved us. You lost me there.

Work#2a (Justification is also santification-good works justification)

Can you please show something in Catholic writing that explains this? You mentioned something like this before, but I am still not following you.

1989 The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus’ proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."38 Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.39

What in here do you disagree with, and why?

Work#2b
2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion.

Do you disagree with this?

Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, ***we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. ***Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God’s wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.

This is faith, working through love. If a person is not moved by the HS, no “good works” they do will be of any eternal value. Do you not agree?

2011 The charity of Christ is the source in us of all our merits before God. (Double talk?)

In what way? Do you really believe that mankind, apart from the Love of God, has any source of merit?

Grace, by uniting us to Christ in active love, ensures the supernatural quality of our acts and consequently their merit before God and before men. The saints have always had a lively awareness that their merits were pure grace.

Are you getting hung up on the word “merit” here?

After earth’s exile, I hope to go and enjoy you in the fatherland, but I do not want to lay up merits for heaven. I want to work for your love alone. . . . In the evening of this life, I shall appear before you with empty hands, for I do not ask you, Lord, to count my works. All our justice is blemished in your eyes. I wish, then, to be clothed in your own justice and to receive from your love the eternal possession of yourself.63

Do you have a problem with this? I am glad you are reading the catechism, but it seems that you are having a hard time with it.

2008 The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace. The fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then follows man’s free acting through his collaboration, so that the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful. Man’s merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit.

Again, what is the problem?

Augustine taught Justification apart from works and apart from santification.

Right…as does the JDDJ…is there something in that document that strikes you wrong?

 

[guanophore]

It is implicitly stated throughout Scripture, “faith alone”

I find it amazing that bible christians are permitted the latitude to derive doctrine on implications, but when Catholics claim that the perpetual virginity of Mary is implied in scirpture, we are “reading our traditions into the text”.

apart form works, which is justification before God. How do you believe the OT saints were saved?

By grace, through faith, just as we are.

What are the oral traditions you speak of that were handed down and not written in Scripture?

That the Church is the pillar and ground of the Truth, and that the Bible was created to be profitable in the task of instruction, which task was given to people (not books).

 

[JonNC]

Does this then mean that more Protestants will become Catholic?

It is certainly a step towards reconciliation.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

Originally Posted by 2nd Adam
For non-reformed theologies…“at the end of the day, the security of the believer finally rests with the believer. For those in the opposite camp [Reformed], the security of the believer finally rests with God – and that, I suggest, rightly taught, draws the believer back to God himself, to trust in God, to a renewed faith that is of a piece with trusting him in the first place.” D.A. Carson

This is a simplified misrepresentation of non-reformed theologies.
It does not reflect Catholic Theology, which is non-reformed.

It isn’t Lutheran theology, either. Goodness.

I commend you brother, for charitable and measured responses to rude and inapprorpriate ad hominem attacks. Your deportment demonstrates your heart.

You are very kind.

Jon