Pope Benedict XVI - "faith alone is true"!

[bookgirl32]

Here, from the piece you keep quoting:

So what does the Law from which we are liberated and which does not save mean? For St Paul, as for all his contemporaries, the word “Law” meant the Torah in its totality, that is, the five books of Moses.

Here, the Pope confirms that he himself believes that the “law” that Paul is speaking of is the Mosaic law, and not the responsibility of a Christian to follow God’s commandments.

Here is the rest of it:

The Torah, in the Pharisaic interpretation, that which Paul had studied and made his own, was a complex set of conduct codes that ranged from the ethical nucleus to observances of rites and worship and that essentially determined the identity of the just person. In particular, these included circumcision, observances concerning pure food and ritual purity in general, the rules regarding the observance of the Sabbath, etc. codes of conduct that also appear frequently in the debates between Jesus and his contemporaries. All of these observances that express a social, cultural and religious identity had become uniquely important in the time of Hellenistic culture, starting from the third century B.C. This culture which had become the universal culture of that time and was a seemingly rational culture; a polytheistic culture, seemingly tolerant constituted a strong pressure for cultural uniformity and thus threatened the identity of Israel, which was politically constrained to enter into this common identity of the Hellenistic culture. This resulted in the loss of its own identity, hence also the loss of the precious heritage of the faith of the Fathers, of the faith in the one God and in the promises of God.

Against this cultural pressure, which not only threatened the Israelite identity but also the faith in the one God and in his promises, it was necessary to create a wall of distinction, a shield of defence to protect the precious heritage of the faith; this wall consisted precisely in the Judaic observances and prescriptions. Paul, who had learned these observances in their role of defending God’s gift, of the inheritance of faith in one God alone, saw this identity threatened by the freedom of the Christians this is why he persecuted them. At the moment of his encounter with the Risen One he understood that with Christ’s Resurrection the situation had changed radically. With Christ, the God of Israel, the one true God, became the God of all peoples. The wall as he says in his Letter to the Ephesians between Israel and the Gentiles, was no longer necessary: it is Christ who protects us from polytheism and all of its deviations; it is Christ who unites us with and in the one God; it is Christ who guarantees our true identity within the diversity of cultures. The wall is no longer necessary; our common identity within the diversity of cultures is Christ, and it is he who makes us just. Being just simply means being with Christ and in Christ. And this suffices. Further observances are no longer necessary. For this reason Luther’s phrase: “faith alone” is true, if it is not opposed to faith in charity, in love. Faith is looking at Christ, entrusting oneself to Christ, being united to Christ, conformed to Christ, to his life. And the form, the life of Christ, is love; hence to believe is to conform to Christ and to enter into his love. So it is that in the Letter to the Galatians in which he primarily developed his teaching on justification St Paul speaks of faith that works through love (cf. Gal 5: 14).

He is pointing to the fact that some were insisting that the Gentiles must follow Mosaic law in order to become Christians, and that Paul was refuting this. He is clarifying how Luther was WRONG in his interpretation of the entire scripture account. He is saying that Luther was right IF he believed it this way, which is how the Catholic Church believes it, how Benedict himself believes it, and how Luther does not, and therefore he is wrong. Feel free to disagree with Pope Benedict, just don’t tell him what he believes.

Nancy Pelosi already tried that, it didn’t go well.

 

[bookgirl32]

You know what, 2nd Adam, by the tone of your other posts about CAtholics needing to read their bibles, I think you’re banking on the hope that we dont’ know very much about the Church’s teachings or the Bible. I think you’re being completely 100% intellectually dishonest and that you think that you can “confuse” us by making us think that 1)the Pope agrees with Luther and then 2) sneak your theology in there and make us say, “WOW! I’ve never heard any of this before, and if the Pope believes it, it must be right.” In essence, you’re trying to trick us into believing you. I don’t think you have any doubt as to what the Pope believes or teaches. It’s very insulting, very dishonest, and quite ignorant of you to assume that we’re essentially completely uninformed and that you can take advantage of this. A 2000 year old Church did not survive this long, with clear, concise and unchanging dogma by being full of foggy headed followers that don’t know anything. Come out, be honest, state your opinion or your argument, and offer us a true and honest discussion.

 

[Earnest_Bunbury]

Faith, if thought as only belief is a mere intellectual faith, faith based in our fallen nature. Faith of a supernatural order is that which has more weight, though is still lacking if thought of as only given and not accepted. These definitions of faith are merely passive. This is what I hear when local Baptist preacher defines the distinction between Protestant faith and Catholic “works”. His “get out of the way” is very temporal in definition and lacks the “change, conversion” of the “active faith” that Catholic theology extols.

This active faith can be based on our fallen nature, which would be wrong, such as a humanistic, temporally based concern devoid of ones eternal soul, that is, “bread alone”. The supernatural active faith based in Catholic thought is that which changes, converts someone into an active transformation in Christ. Original sin and free will is not denied in this theology and assent to values remain to be adhered to, values based in God and part of the cooperation with the Grace of Christ that is unmerited but that which must be accepted by an act of the will. This acceptance is a process leading to union with God and sanctifying grace. Mary’s yes is the preeminent example of this.

To face the tortures of first through 3rd century Rome, as well as Elizabethan England, etc., with a mere passive, natural intellectual faith seemed to me to be less than cogent. An active faith in grace and conversion leading to union with God in the Holy Spirit seemed to be worth dieing for rather than lose it by denying it. If it were mere intellectual faith, couldn’t one just say or do what is required to save one’s life then go back to the passive faith and let God heal you, since you had no active part in it in the first place? Catholic moral theology answers this well in the definition of intrinsic objective evil of works opposed to God as that which makes us opposed to God. We would lose sanctifying grace by becoming the person who opposes the Goodness of God by works opposed to that goodness. If works opposed to God are bad, why are works not opposed to God bad too? Opposition to works seemed to me to come from a superficial understanding of Divine Revelation and since becoming Catholic, I believe very much this is true.

 

[Chancellare]

Then you have to question who has changed in all honesty. In this major Evangelical magazine, Protestants believe that the Catholic Church has changed in regards to the doctrine of justification by faith alone… toward a more biblical position, agreeing with Luther.

christianitytoday.com/ct/2009/januaryweb-only/103-51.0.html#

In most of our posts, you keep on repeating the same theme: that PBXVIII agrees with Luther’s Faith Alone doctrine, which is very naive and insulting. Now there can only be 2 reasons for speaking like this:

1. You are trying to trick your Catholic readers but this shows your mental dishonesty.
2. You really think in all honesty but this shows your lack of research.
   Now which one, I can only pray for you and your ilk.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Here, from the piece you keep quoting:

Here, the Pope confirms that he himself believes that the “law” that Paul is speaking of is the Mosaic law, and not the responsibility of a Christian to follow God’s commandments.

Here is the rest of it:

He is pointing to the fact that some were insisting that the Gentiles must follow Mosaic law in order to become Christians, and that Paul was refuting this. He is clarifying how Luther was WRONG in his interpretation of the entire scripture account. He is saying that Luther was right IF he believed it this way, which is how the Catholic Church believes it, how Benedict himself believes it, and how Luther does not, and therefore he is wrong. Feel free to disagree with Pope Benedict, just don’t tell him what he believes.

Nancy Pelosi already tried that, it didn’t go well.

I am not arguing with you that the Mosaic Law or 10 commandments are applicable to Christians. God’s moral law cannot change, and we know Paul writes that the law is good! The question is how are the 10 commandments applicable to Christians in regards to salvation. Please let me know your answer. Before you answer, you might want to read both of my links attached to my signature. Is you obedience to the moral law of God a factor for your justification before Him?

 

[2nd_Adam]

You know what, 2nd Adam, by the tone of your other posts about CAtholics needing to read their bibles, I think you’re banking on the hope that we dont’ know very much about the Church’s teachings or the Bible. I think you’re being completely 100% intellectually dishonest and that you think that you can “confuse” us by making us think that 1)the Pope agrees with Luther and then 2) sneak your theology in there and make us say, “WOW! I’ve never heard any of this before, and if the Pope believes it, it must be right.” In essence, you’re trying to trick us into believing you. I don’t think you have any doubt as to what the Pope believes or teaches. It’s very insulting, very dishonest, and quite ignorant of you to assume that we’re essentially completely uninformed and that you can take advantage of this. A 2000 year old Church did not survive this long, with clear, concise and unchanging dogma by being full of foggy headed followers that don’t know anything. Come out, be honest, state your opinion or your argument, and offer us a true and honest discussion.

Please just read the two Catholic links to my signature and maybe we can discuss things better. It is the ex-Protestants who have converted to the Catholic Faith who see things much clearer about Catholic Christians. My agenda is to grow our affection and love for our Triune God togehter, through our time together discussing Christian doctrine. We all know in part, so it is good to discuss the Faith with Christians from other Christian communities. The thread about Catholics need to read their Bible is from a Catholic source from Catholic Answers.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Faith, if thought as only belief is a mere intellectual faith, faith based in our fallen nature. Faith of a supernatural order is that which has more weight, though is still lacking if thought of as only given and not accepted. These definitions of faith are merely passive. This is what I hear when local Baptist preacher defines the distinction between Protestant faith and Catholic “works”. His “get out of the way” is very temporal in definition and lacks the “change, conversion” of the “active faith” that Catholic theology extols.

This active faith can be based on our fallen nature, which would be wrong, such as a humanistic, temporally based concern devoid of ones eternal soul, that is, “bread alone”. The supernatural active faith based in Catholic thought is that which changes, converts someone into an active transformation in Christ. Original sin and free will is not denied in this theology and assent to values remain to be adhered to, values based in God and part of the cooperation with the Grace of Christ that is unmerited but that which must be accepted by an act of the will. This acceptance is a process leading to union with God and sanctifying grace. Mary’s yes is the preeminent example of this.

To face the tortures of first through 3rd century Rome, as well as Elizabethan England, etc., with a mere passive, natural intellectual faith seemed to me to be less than cogent. An active faith in grace and conversion leading to union with God in the Holy Spirit seemed to be worth dieing for rather than lose it by denying it. If it were mere intellectual faith, couldn’t one just say or do what is required to save one’s life then go back to the passive faith and let God heal you, since you had no active part in it in the first place? Catholic moral theology answers this well in the definition of intrinsic objective evil of works opposed to God as that which makes us opposed to God. We would lose sanctifying grace by becoming the person who opposes the Goodness of God by works opposed to that goodness. If works opposed to God are bad, why are works not opposed to God bad too? Opposition to works seemed to me to come from a superficial understanding of Divine Revelation and since becoming Catholic, I believe very much this is true.

Now that is a very good post which can help us in our discussion about our similarities and differences. God is an Infinite God; therefore we all know in part. We are called to grow in the grace and knowledge in the Lord Jesus Christ because of not being perfect in this life.

 

[2nd_Adam]

In most of our posts, you keep on repeating the same theme: that PBXVIII agrees with Luther’s Faith Alone doctrine, which is very naive and insulting. Now there can only be 2 reasons for speaking like this:

1. You are trying to trick your Catholic readers but this shows your mental dishonesty.
2. You really think in all honesty but this shows your lack of research.
   Now which one, I can only pray for you and your ilk.

In all honesty, the Catholic Church is quite diversified in what they actually believe in many important doctrines. Salvation including justification by faith confuses many Catholics.

 

[ron77nyc]

You know what, 2nd Adam, by the tone of your other posts about CAtholics needing to read their bibles, I think you’re banking on the hope that we dont’ know very much about the Church’s teachings or the Bible. I think you’re being completely 100% intellectually dishonest and that you think that you can “confuse” us by making us think that 1)the Pope agrees with Luther…

ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/TRENT6.htm#2
COUNCIL OF TRENT
Canons Concerning Justification
Canon 1.
If anyone says that man can be justified before God by his own works, whether done by his own natural powers or through the teaching of the law,[110] without divine grace through Jesus Christ, let him be anathema.

**There are a total of 33.

2nd Adam is saying that Lutherans and Catholics are in agreement on this so what’s the problem? **

 

[bookgirl32]

ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/TRENT6.htm#2
COUNCIL OF TRENT
Canons Concerning Justification
Canon 1.
If anyone says that man can be justified before God by his own works, whether done by his own natural powers or through the teaching of the law,[110] without divine grace through Jesus Christ, let him be anathema.

**There are a total of 33.

2nd Adam is saying that Lutherans and Catholics are in agreement on this so what’s the problem? **

2nd Adam is saying that the Pope is agreeing with Luther’s doctrine of “Faith Alone”, meaning that one act of intellectual faith, that is professing your belief, is all that is required of salvation. This is not the Pope’s, nor the Church’s, stance. It never has been and never will be. Apparently 2nd Adam thinks that 13 years of Catholic education and a lifetime of knowing, loving and learning about my faith is inferior, when it comes to knowledge of Catholic doctrine, to him reading one general audience of the Pope’s with the agenda of “tricking” who he thinks are uneducated Catholics. He’s backhandedly calling us stupid.

 

[JonNC]

=bookgirl32;5836584]2nd Adam is saying that the Pope is agreeing with Luther’s doctrine of “Faith Alone”, meaning that one act of intellectual faith, that is professing your belief, is all that is required of salvation.

Not what Luther said. Not what sola fide means.

Jon

 

[bookgirl32]

Not what Luther said. Not what sola fide means.

Jon

Okay, I’ll take the correction, and thank you for it. I know that what I put down is more of an evangelical / fundamentalist understanding of salvation and not Luther’s “sola fide”. I was trying to point out that the Pope was not agreeing with sola fide. Maybe trying to find some common ground with it, but also acknowledging that at it’s core it is not in line with Catholic teaching, hence the “if” etc. etc.

But we would both agree that sola fide is not a Catholic doctrine?

 

[JonNC]

Okay, I’ll take the correction, and thank you for it. I know that what I put down is more of an evangelical / fundamentalist understanding of salvation and not Luther’s “sola fide”. I was trying to point out that the Pope was not agreeing with sola fide. Maybe trying to find some common ground with it, but also acknowledging that at it’s core it is not in line with Catholic teaching, hence the “if” etc. etc.

But we would both agree that sola fide is not a Catholic doctrine?

The words sola fide are not Catholic doctrine. I think, however, as you said, the Pope is searching for common ground, much like the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification does. And from that common ground - that we are saved by grace alone through faith in Christ, we can build a mutual understanding of this benchmark of Christian faith. The pope says we conform ourselves to Christ, and a Lutherans might say that conforming is the result - it is what (must) happen to the regenerate.
I will let the theologians and scholars argue over the difference. For me they result in the same thing. As Luther said, “there is no justification without sanctification.”

Jon

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

In all honesty, the Catholic Church is quite diversified in what they actually believe in many important doctrines. Salvation including justification by faith confuses many Catholics.

Many Catholics and many protestants are ignorant of the faith.

That is irrelevant to this thread.

Faithful Catholics who know the faith agree on important doctrines.

Faithful protestants don’t even have a single doctrine, so agreement is impossible.

 

[bookgirl32]

The words sola fide are not Catholic doctrine. I think, however, as you said, the Pope is searching for common ground, much like the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification does. And from that common ground - that we are saved by grace alone through faith in Christ, we can build a mutual understanding of this benchmark of Christian faith. The pope says we conform ourselves to Christ, and a Lutherans might say that conforming is the result - it is what (must) happen to the regenerate.
I will let the theologians and scholars argue over the difference. For me they result in the same thing. As Luther said, “there is no justification without sanctification.”

Jon

Again, not trying to downplay the importance of good works done through faith to Lutherans. But as you pointed out, to Catholics the good works are necessary for salvation, to Lutherans it is an important result of the justification. Would that be accurate? The Pope’s “if” statement is calling attention to this difference to clarify that although he has hope in the similarities, they are not yet similar enough for the two to reunite.

I really was just more irritated with the OP refusing to believe educated (he seems to think that we all are not) Catholics in regards to the Pope’s statement.

 

[2nd_Adam]

2nd Adam is saying that the Pope is agreeing with Luther’s doctrine of “Faith Alone”, meaning that one act of intellectual faith, that is professing your belief, is all that is required of salvation. This is not the Pope’s, nor the Church’s, stance. It never has been and never will be. Apparently 2nd Adam thinks that 13 years of Catholic education and a lifetime of knowing, loving and learning about my faith is inferior, when it comes to knowledge of Catholic doctrine, to him reading one general audience of the Pope’s with the agenda of “tricking” who he thinks are uneducated Catholics. He’s backhandedly calling us stupid.

That’s not what I am saying, and I never said that on other posts. I never said that I believe in decisional regeneratiion. Mental ascent alone does not save a sinner (James 2).

 

[2nd_Adam]

Again, not trying to downplay the importance of good works done through faith to Lutherans. But as you pointed out, to Catholics the good works are necessary for salvation, to Lutherans it is an important result of the justification. Would that be accurate? The Pope’s “if” statement is calling attention to this difference to clarify that although he has hope in the similarities, they are not yet similar enough for the two to reunite.

I really was just more irritated with the OP refusing to believe educated (he seems to think that we all are not) Catholics in regards to the Pope’s statement.

Do you think that personal good works, or obedience to the moral law are grounds or the cause of your justification before God?

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Do you think that personal good works, or obedience to the moral law are grounds or the cause of your justification before God?

No Catholic believes that.

However, we do believe that evil works and persistent disobedience to the commandments of Jesus can jeopardize our salvation.

 

[2nd_Adam]

No Catholic believes that.

However, we do believe that evil works and persistent disobedience to the commandments of Jesus can jeopardize our salvation.

Please read my second link on my signature. I think the Catholic college professor woud disagree with your posting. Many Catholics that I have met think that they will be in Heaven because they are good people, or that they have been baptized, or that they are members of the Catholic Church.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Please read my second link on my signature. I think the Catholic college professor woud disagree with your posting. Many Catholics that I have met think that they will be in Heaven because they are good people, or that they have been baptized, or that they are members of the Catholic Church.

That is inconsistent with Catholic teaching.

1989 The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus’ proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."38 Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.39

1990 Justification detaches man from sin which contradicts the love of God, and purifies his heart of sin. Justification follows upon God’s merciful initiative of offering forgiveness. It reconciles man with God. It frees from the enslavement to sin, and it heals.

1991 Justification is at the same time the acceptance of God’s righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ. Righteousness (or “justice”) here means the rectitude of divine love. With justification, faith, hope, and charity are poured into our hearts, and obedience to the divine will is granted us.

1992 Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life:40

But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins; it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus.41
1993 Justification establishes cooperation between God’s grace and man’s freedom. On man’s part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent:

When God touches man’s heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God’s grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God’s sight.42

vatican.va/archive/catechism/p3s1c3a2.htm