Pope Benedict XVI - "faith alone is true"!

[fhansen]

Do you think that personal good works, or obedience to the moral law are grounds or the cause of your justification before God?

Catholics believe all law is fulfilled when they’ve come to love God with their whole heart, soul, mind, and strength and their neighbor as themselves because this is God’s will for man and He’ll be satisfied with nothing less. In this sense, yes, we must be morally good but only because we must be truly changed-because we must truly love, which excludes sin. In concise form, what Pope Benedict said was, if by “faith alone” Luther meant “love alone”, (which always implies faith, while faith does not always imply love), then we agree. Catholic teaching always maintains that man must be perfected in love by cooperating with Gods grace and that is the perfection of man-because “the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God” (1Cor 6:9) and one must “Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” (Matt 5:48)

 

[2nd_Adam]

No Catholic believes that.

However, we do believe that evil works and persistent disobedience to the commandments of Jesus can jeopardize our salvation.

There is a great difference in what individual Catholics believe as compared to what the Catholic Catechism states.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Catholics believe all law is fulfilled when they’ve come to love God with their whole heart, soul, mind, and strength and their neighbor as themselves because this is God’s will for man and He’ll be satisfied with nothing less. In this sense, yes, we must be morally good but only because we must be truly changed-because we must truly love, which excludes sin. In concise form, what Pope Benedict said was, if by “faith alone” Luther meant “love alone”, (which always implies faith, while faith does not always imply love), then we agree. Catholic teaching always maintains that man must be perfected in love by cooperating with Gods grace and that is the perfection of man-because “the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God” (1Cor 6:9) and one must “Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” (Matt 5:48)

Would it be accurate to state that Catholic Christians do not see Jesus as fulfilling the righteous requirement of the law on their behalf?

 

[fhansen]

Would it be accurate to state that Catholic Christians do not see Jesus as fulfilling the righteous requirement of the law on their behalf?

Jesus fulfilled the law and leads us to fulfill it as well-this is how we are made just in the eyes of God.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Jesus fulfilled the law and leads us to fulfill it as well-this is how we are made just in the eyes of God.

How do you reconcile your post with this Bible passage from Romans chapter 3 on justification by faith?

Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

The Righteousness of God Through Faith

But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

 

[Canto]

How do you reconcile your post with this Bible passage from Romans chapter 3 on justification by faith?

Matt 19:17 But if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Rom 2:13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God: but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Rom 13:10 The love of our neighbour worketh no evil. Love therefore is the fulfilling of the law.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Matt 19:17 But if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Rom 2:13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God: but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Rom 13:10 The love of our neighbour worketh no evil. Love therefore is the fulfilling of the law.

I think Romans verses 2:13 and 13:10 need to be understood in light of the entire book of Romans. So, are you saying that you will be justified by keeping the law?

The Rich Young Man

16 And behold, a man came up to him, saying, “Teacher, what good deed must I do to have eternal life?” 17 And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.” 18 He said to him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “You shall not murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, 19 Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 20 The young man said to him, “All these I have kept. What do I still lack?” 21 Jesus said to him, “If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.” 22 When the young man heard this he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.

23 And Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly, I say to you, only with difficulty will a rich person enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.” 25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?” 26 But Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” - Matthew 19

 

[Canto]

I think Romans verses 2:13 and 13:10 need to be understood in light of the entire book of Romans. So, are you saying that you will be justified by keeping the law?

The Mosaic law or any other law aside from the law of Christ is of know concern to me.

If I refuse to love, I will not know Christ.

 

[2nd_Adam]

The Mosaic law or any other law aside from the law of Christ is of know concern to me.

If I refuse to love, I will not know Christ.

So, are you saying that the Mosaic Law is not applicable to Catholic Christians? Do you see the Mosaic Law to be the 10 Commandments?

 

[Jason_1977]

Philippians 2:12
12 So then, my beloved, obedient as you have always been, not only when I am present but all the more now when I am absent, work out your salvation with fear and trembling.

James 2:14-26

14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day, 16 and one of you says to them, Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well, but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it? 17 So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead. 18 Indeed someone might say, You have faith and I have works. Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works. 19 You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble. 20 Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works. 23 Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness, and he was called the friend of God.
24 See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route? ***26 For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead. ***

Titus 3:8-11

8 This saying is trustworthy.** I want you to insist on these points, that those who have believed in God be careful to devote themselves to good works; these are excellent and beneficial to others.** 9 Avoid foolish arguments, genealogies, rivalries, and quarrels about the law, for they are useless and futile. 10 After a first and second warning, break off contact with a heretic, 11 realizing that such a person is perverted and sinful and stands self-condemned.

You all are bending the popes words in such a way that would cause GUMBY to scream for a Chiropractor. Stop it. Anyone that screams about faith alone has not read the whole Bible, just part of it. It’s easy to say Bible alone, and we catholics say, before the printing press there was a church, but as John 1 says, In the beginning, there was the Word. OKAY>? THE Word. not part of it. Not pieces of it. You start with faith. But what good’s a truck that has no gas? Nowhere to go?

Accepting Christ & having a faith in his saving grace is a portion of what is expected. If that werent so, I’d be content to sit on my hands the rest of my life & just simply wait to die. I’m pretty sure God gave us 2 hands & 10 fingers for a purpose. I served macaroni salad on the steam line at the homeless shelter soup kitchen tonight after church & ate dinner there. Feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty. 2 acts of corporal mercy there. People may say that I’m not saving myslf by doing that, I’m just building up treasure in heaven. What the heck am I going to do with treasure in Heaven? This faith alone business is old. 398 years old to be exact. not the scripture, but the menality that thats all there is to it.:coffeeread:

 

[Canto]

So, are you saying that the Mosaic Law is not applicable to Catholic Christians? Do you see the Mosaic Law to be the 10 Commandments?

Not to doge the question, but is it applicable to you? Curious.

The 10 commandmants were give to Moses from God, Christ said to keep them, above all love. Did Christ say to keep the dietary restrictions of the law for example.

Acts 6:14 ??? For we have heard him say that this Jesus of Nazareth shall destroy this place and shall change the traditions which Moses delivered unto us.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Philippians 2:12
12 So then, my beloved, obedient as you have always been, not only when I am present but all the more now when I am absent, work out your salvation with fear and trembling.

:

Who’s twisting the words of Paul? This is such a pattern.

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

Please let me know how I am twisting the words of Pope Benedict when I have posted a link to his entire work on justification by faith alone.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Not to doge the question, but is it applicable to you? Curious.

The 10 commandmants were give to Moses from God, Christ said to keep them, above all love. Did Christ say to keep the dietary restrictions of the law for example.

Acts 6:14 ??? For we have heard him say that this Jesus of Nazareth shall destroy this place and shall change the traditions which Moses delivered unto us.

Of course it is. According to the Bible, the law is good! God’s moral law is always excellent, and does not change.

 

[Canto]

Of course it is. According to the Bible, the law is good! God’s moral law is always excellent, and does not change.

What about the non moral aspects of the Mosaic Law?
If one fails to meet God’s moral law, such as to love, does this effect their justifcation?

 

[Earnest_Bunbury]

On the moral law: 1950 The moral law is the work of divine Wisdom. Its biblical meaning can be defined as fatherly instruction, God’s pedagogy. It prescribes for man the ways, the rules of conduct that lead to the promised beatitude; it proscribes the ways of evil which turn him away from God and his love. It is at once firm in its precepts and, in its promises, worthy of love.

1951 Law is a rule of conduct enacted by competent authority for the sake of the common good. The moral law presupposes the rational order, established among creatures for their good and to serve their final end, by the power, wisdom, and goodness of the Creator. All law finds its first and ultimate truth in the eternal law. Law is declared and established by reason as a participation in the providence of the living God, Creator and Redeemer of all. "Such an ordinance of reason is what one calls law."2

Alone among all animate beings, man can boast of having been counted worthy to receive a law from God: as an animal endowed with reason, capable of understanding and discernment, he is to govern his conduct by using his freedom and reason, in obedience to the One who has entrusted everything to him.3

1952 There are different expressions of the moral law, all of them interrelated: eternal law - the source, in God, of all law; natural law; revealed law, comprising the Old Law and the New Law, or Law of the Gospel; finally, civil and ecclesiastical laws.

1953 The moral law finds its fullness and its unity in Christ. Jesus Christ is in person the way of perfection. He is the end of the law, for only he teaches and bestows the justice of God: "For Christ is the end of the law, that every one who has faith may be justified."4 vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c3a1.htm

From 2nd Adam: "How do you reconcile your post with this Bible passage from Romans chapter 3 on justification by faith?"

Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

4.5 Law and Gospel

31.We confess together that persons are justified by faith in the gospel “apart from works prescribed by the law” (Rom 3:28). Christ has fulfilled the law and by his death and resurrection has overcome it as a way to salvation. We also confess that God’s commandments retain their validity for the justified and that Christ has by his teaching and example expressed God’s will which is a standard for the conduct of the justified also.

32.Lutherans state that the distinction and right ordering of law and gospel is essential for the understanding of justification. In its theological use, the law is demand and accusation. Throughout their lives, all persons, Christians also, in that they are sinners, stand under this accusation which uncovers their sin so that, in faith in the gospel, they will turn unreservedly to the mercy of God in Christ, which alone justifies them.

33.Because the law as a way to salvation has been fulfilled and overcome through the gospel, Catholics can say that Christ is not a lawgiver in the manner of Moses. When Catholics emphasize that the righteous are bound to observe God’s commandments, they do not thereby deny that through Jesus Christ God has mercifully promised to his children the grace of eternal life.[18] [See Sources for section 4.5].

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html

From 2nd Adam:

There is a great difference in what individual Catholics believe as compared to what the Catholic Catechism states.

The authority for teaching comes from the Magisterium and not the personal interpretation of the laity.

These are the correct sources to be studied but they are certainly not exhaustive. Taking a sentence from a speech and inferring that “Faith alone is true” is lacking in knowledge of the scope of the problem and in the depth of the facts. A study of the theology and not the opinion of the theology is where one places their assent. The authority of the Church to make that interpretation as handed down in the apostles teaching is just as important to understand as is the totality of that teaching that illumines the path to union with God. Dueling Bible verses are a less than worthy use of the Word of God toward charitable instruction. If one rejects the facts of the teaching of the Church’s interpretation, argument will be of little help toward their assent. To quote John Henry Cardinal Newman: “It is as absurd to argue men, as to torture them, into believing.”

 

[Jason_1977]

Who’s twisting the words of Paul? This is such a pattern.

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

Please let me know how I am twisting the words of Pope Benedict when I have posted a link to his entire work on justification by faith alone.

2NDADAM…FOR THE LAST TIME…DON’T ACCUSE ME OF TWISTING PAULS WORDS. THAT WAS PHILIPPIANS 2:12. YOU ARE A SLOW LEARNER. IF YOU WANT PHILIPPIANS 2:12-THIRTEEN…THEN YES, WHAT YOU POSTED IS CORRECT. WHAT I POSTED WAS SCRIPTURE VERBATUM. DON’T EVER ACCUSE ME OF TWISTING THE WORD WHEN IT IS IN PLAIN SIGHT.

SECONDLY,YOU HAVE NEVER READ THE BOOK OF JAMES.

JAMES 2:14-26

14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?

15 If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day,

16 and one of you says to them, Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well, but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it?

17 So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

18 Indeed someone might say, You have faith and I have works. Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.

19 You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble.

20** Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless? **

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?

22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.

23 Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness, and he was called the friend of God.

24 See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

25 And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route?

26 For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

YOU SIR WOULD BE THE IGNORAMUS ON TWO COUNTS. 1, YOU ACCUSE ME OF TWISTING THE WORD. 2: YOU REQUIRE PROOF OF SOMEONE NOT BEING JUSTIFIED BY FAITH ALONE. THIS IS NOT FROM ME EITHER. THIS WOULD BE SCRIPTURE REFERRING TO YOU AS THE IGNORAMUS UNDER THOSE CONDITIONS. I WOULD CONSIDER YOU ONE FOR TELLING ME I TWISTED THE WORD WHEN I COPIED IT VERBATUM, DON’T EVER ACCUSE ME OF TWISTING THE WORD AGAIN.

 

[Jason_1977]

who’s twisting the words of paul? This is such a pattern.

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is god who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

Please let me know how i am twisting the words of pope benedict when i have posted a link to his entire work on justification by faith alone.

by the way, the copy & paste of the phil 2:12 was straight out of the nab. Your version may have a comma. Mine doesn’t. Versions do differ…you do realize this, don’t you?

 

[2nd_Adam]

by the way, the copy & paste of the phil 2:12 was straight out of the nab. Your version may have a comma. Mine doesn’t. Versions do differ…you do realize this, don’t you?

Are you saying that Philippians 2:12 is complete without Philippians 2:13?

 

[Jason_1977]

Who’s twisting the words of Paul? This is such a pattern.

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

Please let me know how I am twisting the words of Pope Benedict when I have posted a link to his entire work on justification by faith alone.

2NDADAM: HERE IS PHILLIPIANS 2:12-13, STRAIGHT OUT OF THE KJV,
OBSERVE:

PHILIPPIANS 2:12-13
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

I don’t see a comma separating verse 12 from 13, do you? Interesting. hmmm. YOU sir need to look at many things to draw a conclusion. I forgive you and I pray that God forgives you. Like you said. Yes, such a pattern. :coffeeread:

BUT, here is the NIV which DOES have a comma:

Philippians 2:12-13 (New International Version)

Shining as Stars
12Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

I think I’d be a bit more courteous and careful when accusing people of twisting His Word. Your version may be different from someone elses version. I took the time to check it out. That is what you should do as well. Don’t ever accuse me of that again without checking all possible avenues first. It’s what I do. It’s the right thing to do. Prove the person wrong, don’t just tell them they are wrong accusing them, because now, you look very foolish and your credibility is shot. I have to just take what you say w. a grain of salt & know that you’re not one of those in here I can take seriously. This is what you’re doing to yourself. I’m going to pray for you. :coffeeread:

 

[emseguin]

Dear 2ndAdam

---

I’m amazed how we all have our blindness. Some seem to have very little desire to bring Catholics and Evangelicals together in unity as a witness to the world for the gospel. This attitude goes against what Jesus taught in John 17.

---

We cannot come together with one side rejecting the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinty, of Our Lord, present in the Sacred Host, in the Tabernacle.
And without the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

I believe you go against unity, even with Christ.
You are our “seperated” brothers and sisters. In which we pray for your return.
Luther, Calvin, with the influencing of the Evil One of course, led all of you astray, from His sacred Body and Blood.

Only in the end will you come to realize this, if not hopefully before, but until then, you may create all the posts you wish, to try and “confuse” and create whatever it is your goal to create, because it is not unity and you know it.

May Mother Mary embrace you, and Our Lord have mercy.

Peace be with you