Pope Benedict XVI - "faith alone is true"!

[fhansen]

Lutherans believe we are justified by grace alone through faith in Christ. We have no ability to save ourselves. But we do have a responsibilty to be obedient, and this includes our participation in our sanctification, doing good works, hearing the word and receiving the Eucharist and confession/Holy Absolution, all the time knowing it is by Christ’s work, and the Holy Spirit in us, that makes salvation possible.
Jon

I realize that Lutherans rely on God’s grace alone for salvation, as Catholics do. But the difference between a responsibility to be obedient and a necessity for obedience is still at issue, IMO-although it’s an issue that’s hopefully resolvable.

 

[2nd_Adam]

2NDADAM, what you’re doing is MAKING THE POPE APPEAR TO BE SAYING SOMETHING HE NEVER SAID. In other words, you’re taking the statement out of context, and the sick thing is that you’re consciously aware of what you’re doing. Does thou shalt not bear false witness ring any bells? You seek to discredit a man who preaches & teaches the truth?

The Holy Father said so himself that failth alone is true if it doesn’t go against acts of love & acts of charity. He’s saying that love & charity are essential, so faith alone cannot stand on it’s own two feet, & he said that without even saying it. THAT is how he said it. I dont know what your purpose is, but your purpose is not one of love & charity. It certainly isn’t one of truth.

You are spreading lies, masking the truth, and discrediting one who is preaching the Word and truth. What you are doing, in short, is evil. It serves YOUR purpose, not God’s.

How can I make the Pope say something differently when I posted the link to his entire work on justification by faith alone? There are other Evangelicals who understand the Pope’s teaching on justification by faith alone just like me.

 

[Jason_1977]

How can I make the Pope say something differently when I posted the link to his entire work on justification by faith alone? There are other Evangelicals who understand the Pope’s teaching on justification by faith alone just like me.

Really? You must’ve read the whole thing, because it took quite a bit of surgery to make your little quote there. I read the same thing you did, which is why your quote is perverting the truth, is far from the truth, and distorting the meaning of a message.

Definitely not of God.

2ndly, I’m like to repost, verbatum what the Holy Father said. I’d like to be on record in this room as having pointed out the truth in what the pope said. THis will be the second time I pointed out the truth & showed you the reall message the Pope was conveying.

(Gal 2: 15-16). And to the Christians of Rome he reasserts that “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they are now justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus” (Rm 3: 23-24). And he adds "we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the law" (ibid., v. 28). At this point Luther translated: “justified by faith alone”. I shall return to this point at the end of the Catechesis. First, we must explain what is this “Law” from which we are freed and what are those “works of the Law” that do not justify. The opinion that was to recur systematically in history already existed in the community at Corinth. This opinion consisted in thinking that it was a question of moral law and that the Christian freedom thus consisted in the liberation from ethics. Thus in Corinth the term “πάντα μοι έξεστιν” (I can do what I like) was widespread. It is obvious that this interpretation is wrong: Christian freedom is not libertinism; the liberation of which St Paul spoke is not liberation from good works.

NOW, you say the pope said one thing. I am seeing a completely different message from the same text we’re talking about. Obviously you are here to distort truths. What you’re doing is not of God.

 

[guanophore]

I agree with Pope Benedict’s “IF” qualifier, and so does Martin Luther, and Reformed Christians. We all love James chapter 2 “faith without works is dead” Mental assent and sinner’s prayers, and altar calls does not necessarily save sinners!

This is very Catholic of you!

Charles Finney rejected Reformed Theology. He is the father of easy believism and decisional regeneration.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Grandison_Finney

…

You might want to consider contributing to the editing of the article, since neither of the terms you use here are found in it.

 

[guanophore]

The Way of Love

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. **For we know in part **and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.

**So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love. **

I am glad you posted this. I am always amazed when my separated brethren claim “faith alone” when the Apostles clearly says that faith always abides with hope and love. It is also amazing to me, if salvation depended upon “faith alone”, why love would be considered the greatest!

 

[guanophore]

A baby is saved the same way as any other sinner, through the person and work of Jesus Christ.  I believe John the Baptist was saved in his mother's womb.

Yes, this is Catholic Teaching. It is also taught that because of this, he was born clean of original sin.

I agree with Pope Benedict's if statement within his understanding of faith alone.  It is very simliar to what Martin Luther taught too.

“There is no justification without sanctification, no forgiveness without renewal of life, no real faith from which the fruits of new obedience do not grow.” - Luther

I don’t think Martin Luther would recognize the fruit of his labors in modern day Evangelicalism. I think he would be appalled at what I think you are calling “easy believeism” (justification without sanctification?). He would not recognize a lot of “Lutheranism” either.

 

[guanophore]

Then you have to question who has changed in all honesty. In this major Evangelical magazine, Protestants believe that the Catholic Church has changed in regards to the doctrine of justification by faith alone… toward a more biblical position, agreeing with Luther.

christianitytoday.com/ct/2009/januaryweb-only/103-51.0.html#

Yeah, I think it is only people’s perceptions that have changed, and not the Teaching itself. the Catholic church has always taught that we are justified by grace, through faith. That is why it is in the NT, which was written entirely by Catholics.

I have no doubt that this pure message had become distorted in the life and preaching of clerics in Europe of the time. It does not come as a surprise that, when the shepherds become corrupted, the sheep get scattered.

 

[JonNC]

I don’t think Martin Luther would recognize the fruit of his labors in modern day Evangelicalism. I think he would be appalled at what I think you are calling “easy believeism” (justification without sanctification?). He would not recognize a lot of “Lutheranism” either.

Hi guano,
I think he wouldn’t recognize some of today’s Catholicism, and with pleasure, too.

Care to speculate on the parts of Lutheranism he wouldn’t recognize, ignoring of course the liberal political correct stuff that even some Catholics hold to?

Jon

 

[ccolley2]

How do you reconcile your post with this Bible passage from Romans chapter 3 on justification by faith?

Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

The Righteousness of God Through Faith

But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

Are you saying that you don’t believe that we will be judged by our works? Then how do you explain Matthew 25:31ff? Sure looks like we will be judged on our actions as well as our faith.
We, Catholics, do not downplay the role of faith in salvation…we are just saying that our faith AND our actions will be judged. Romans 3 is a commonly misunderstood passage of scripture. In Romans, Paul draws heavily on the Old Testament.

As the Catholic Bible Dictionary says:

• “The contrast between faith and the Law is a major theme in Romans with Abraham held up as an example of faith. Paul argues forcefully that Abraham’s faith was conversion, which he underwent before the Law, before his circumcision, “a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised.”(Romans4:11cf, Gen 15cf, Eph 2:8-10, Gal2:16). For Paul, those who considered themselves saved merely by works of the law without faith cannot obtain the promised righteouness that is possible by faith. We are made righteous by the union of faith with baptism(Rom1:17, 3:22, 26, 4:5. 9:30, Gal2:16, 3:8)” ( The Catholic Bible Dictionary, Hahn, Scott,ed. 2009)

So it is not “works alone” and…not “faith alone” that saves us.

CC

 

[2nd_Adam]

Are you saying that you don’t believe that we will be judged by our works? Then how do you explain Matthew 25:31ff? Sure looks like we will be judged on our actions as well as our faith.
We, Catholics, do not downplay the role of faith in salvation…we are just saying that our faith AND our actions will be judged. Romans 3 is a commonly misunderstood passage of scripture. In Romans, Paul draws heavily on the Old Testament.

As the Catholic Bible Dictionary says:

• “The contrast between faith and the Law is a major theme in Romans with Abraham held up as an example of faith. Paul argues forcefully that Abraham’s faith was conversion, which he underwent before the Law, before his circumcision, “a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised.”(Romans4:11cf, Gen 15cf, Eph 2:8-10, Gal2:16). For Paul, those who considered themselves saved merely by works of the law without faith cannot obtain the promised righteouness that is possible by faith. We are made righteous by the union of faith with baptism(Rom1:17, 3:22, 26, 4:5. 9:30, Gal2:16, 3:8)” ( The Catholic Bible Dictionary*, Hahn, Scott,ed. 2009)

So it is not “works alone” and…not “faith alone” that saves us.

CC

Believers and unbelievers will all have to give an account and be judged. However, the believer is not judged for his eternal destiny because all believers will be in Heaven based on the righteousness of Christ alone. We are justified by faith as Christans. Our faith has an object, which is Christ and Him crucified on our behalf.

 

[Canto]

Believers and unbelievers will all have to give an account and be judged. However, the believer is not judged for his eternal destiny because all believers will be in Heaven based on the righteousness of Christ alone. We are justified by faith as Christans. Our faith has an object, which is Christ and Him crucified on our behalf.

all believers will be in Heaven based on the righteousness of Christ alone
Does this mean even the believers who sin like crazy???
Remember: The devils believe and tremble

Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Luke 13:24 Strive to enter by the narrow gate: for many, I say to you, shall seek to enter and shall not be able.

 

[Daedelus76]

St Paul spoke of faith rooted and founded in Charity. Charity by nature involves doing good works. Didn’t Luther deny good works ??? So if one takes faith alone (which Luther did not ???) to mean faith rooted and founded in charity than that is fine. The Pope is not supporting faith alone period with nothing else.

Luther didn’t deny doing good works. ““Faith is a living, restless thing. It cannot be inoperative. We are not saved by works; but if there be no works, there must be something amiss with faith”

I think Luther’s theology is still flawed though, if nothing else because it has a more legal tone, whereas Anselm, Aquinas, et al. always emphasized that the legal aspect is only a metaphor. Also, I think Luther badly misread Paul’s theology in Romans, whereas a modern scholar like N.T. Wright gives a more accurate picture of how Paul felt about Christianity in relation to Jewish Law and works.

My impression is that interpreting Christian soteriology legally is missing the point, and leads to ridiculous absurdities in theology, charicatures of God, and/or scrupulosity in piety, I think the whole purpose of Christianity is much more therapeutic/experiential/relational.

 

[2nd_Adam]

all believers will be in Heaven based on the righteousness of Christ alone
Does this mean even the believers who sin like crazy???
Remember: The devils believe and tremble

Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Luke 13:24 Strive to enter by the narrow gate: for many, I say to you, shall seek to enter and shall not be able.

Good one. Well let’s say the elect believers will be in Heaven. Or, maybe the ones that were chosen to be saved before the foundations of the world will be in Heaven by the righteousness of Christ. I agree that goat believers will be in Hell. Or, the bastard believers will join the goats too (Hebrews 12).

 

[guanophore]

Hi guano,
I think he wouldn’t recognize some of today’s Catholicism, and with pleasure, too.

Care to speculate on the parts of Lutheranism he wouldn’t recognize, ignoring of course the liberal political correct stuff that even some Catholics hold to?
Jon

This is what I had in mind. They cannot be ignored! These are serious departures from the Apostolic faith.

 

[guanophore]

Are you saying that you don’t believe that we will be judged by our works? Then how do you explain Matthew 25:31ff? Sure looks like we will be judged on our actions as well as our faith.

I have had some of my Reformed brethren on CAF tell me that this passage is not directed toward Genitle Christians, and therefore, has no relevance to us. Jesus is teaching Jews, and they will be judged under a different covenant.

We, Catholics, do not downplay the role of faith in salvation…we are just saying that our faith AND our actions will be judged. Romans 3 is a commonly misunderstood passage of scripture. In Romans, Paul draws heavily on the Old Testament.

I think the problem that Catholics run into when talking to Evangelicals is the way these terms are defined. When Catholics say that our works are involved in our salvation, it generally makes all those influenced by the Refomred Traditions cringe. The Catholic Church teaches, as is evident in Benedicts statement, that we are saved by “faith alone”. What the Apostles mean by that, though is very different than how modern Evangelicals understand it. The Apostles meant “faith, working through love”, love being the fulfillment of the Law. What is different is the QUALITY of the faith that saves. It is faith that works, faith that obeys, faith that is together with hope and love.

So it is not “works alone” and…not “faith alone” that saves us.

CC

This is well said. We are saved through grace, which works through our faith and our actions. Grace is the ONLY BASIS of salvation. Although our faith and our works are also related to salvation, neither of them are the BASIS of it. Rather, faith and works are a reflection of the grace at work in us.

 

[JonNC]

This is what I had in mind. They cannot be ignored! These are serious departures from the Apostolic faith.

I couldn’t agree more.

Jon

 

[prodigalson12]

James 2:14
My brothers, what [is] the gain if anyone says he has faith, but he does not have works? Is the faith able to save him?

James 2:16
and any one of you say to them, Go in peace, be warmed and filled, but does not give them the things the body needs, what gain [is it]?

James 2:18
But someone will say, You have faith, and I have works. Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith out of my works.

James 2:20
But are you willing to know, O vain man, that faith apart from works is dead?

James 2:22
You see that faith worked with his works; and out of the works the faith was perfected.

James 2:24
You see, then, that a man is justified out of works, and not out of faith only.

James 2:25
But in the same way Rahab the harlot was also justified out of works, having received the messengers, and sending them out by another way.

James 2:26
For as the body is dead apart from the spirit, so also faith is dead apart from works.

James 2:14
My brothers, what [is] the gain if anyone says he has faith, but he does not have works? Is the faith able to save him?

 

[swariffin]

I don’t think Pope Benedict XVI is speaking of “faith alone” (sola fide) in the context of salvation. No, he is referring to the following:

1.) Turning to Christ in times of need (“Faith is looking at Christ”);
2.) Giving your life over to Christ (“entrusting oneself to Christ”); and
3.) Living as Christ did and taught (“being united to Christ, conformed to Christ, to his life”)

In other words, affirming what Christ said in the Gospel of John:

“Jesus saith to him: I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father, but by me.” - John 14:6

Yes indeed. Reading the title alone, can be misleading. But, we need such kind of title to gain attention, though.

 

[ccolley2]

I have had some of my Reformed brethren on CAF tell me that this passage is not directed toward Genitle Christians, and therefore, has no relevance to us. Jesus is teaching Jews, and they will be judged under a different covenant.

Jews will be judged under a different covenant?? I don’t understand how our Reformed brethren can say that when Paul clearly says…“there is no Jew or Greek…no man or woman…we are all one in Christ…” And then again…when Christ prays that we are all one as he and the Father are one…1…We are ONE body of Christ.

Why do some of our Reformed brethren insist that all of Scripture is as relevant today as it was in New Testament times and then turn around and say, but, this scripture passage is NOT relevant to us…What’s up with that??
CC

 

[2nd_Adam]

Jews will be judged under a different covenant?? I don’t understand how our Reformed brethren can say that when Paul clearly says…“there is no Jew or Greek…no man or woman…we are all one in Christ…” And then again…when Christ prays that we are all one as he and the Father are one…1…We are ONE body of Christ.

Why do some of our Reformed brethren insist that all of Scripture is as relevant today as it was in New Testament times and then turn around and say, but, this scripture passage is NOT relevant to us…What’s up with that??
CC

Actually, Reformed Christians usually get accused for replacement theology, so this doesn’t make too much sense to me.