Pope Blasts 'Dismal Theories' on Gays

[rlg94086]

Because I have never engaged in the behavior but there is nothing that has been able to rid me of the attractions. All this bs suggesting therapy that costs through the roof. My God has consoled me in telling me I am completely fine the way I am. It bothers me that people can not come to the same conclusion.

Jim,

If you are living a chaste life, then there is nothing wrong. However, it doesn’t change the fact that your desires are disordered, no matter what their origin.

If someone is blind and chooses not to get an operation to regain their sight, it doesn’t change blindness to a “normal” human condition. I hope that makes sense.

Don’t take offense at the description of your desires. I’m guessing those desires are fairly strong (lust generally is). Your ability to overcome your disordered desires and remain chaste means you are able to bear a burden better than many of us who don’t have that particular desire.

God bless,

Robert

 

[matthias]

Because I have never engaged in the behavior but there is nothing that has been able to rid me of the attractions. All this bs suggesting therapy that costs through the roof. My God has consoled me in telling me I am completely fine the way I am. It bothers me that people can not come to the same conclusion.

I guess the problem is in how we use the term “fine”. God loves us. We are all possessant of a unique human dignity that nothing can diminish.

Does God love you how you are? Yes.
Would God love anyone less because they have an unnatural inclination they did not ask for? No.

In this sence then, yes, you a perfectly “fine” in God’s eyes.

Every sin is a disordered act. We all sin (I assure you I’m included in we) and these acts are disordered. We all have sinful inclinations (I too have sinful inclinations) and I will probably not be free of them till Christ comes again to make things new.

If these inclinations can be remedied, all the better. If not and we can struggle against them then these are crosses we can unite to the cross of Christ.

If a person has an disordered (sinnful) inclination and can resist it and not act on it then, God bless them. Must they seek a medical cure with expensive therapy, etc.? No. They don’t “have” to spend lots of money seeking a solution to these inclinations. But this is different than saying we would be opposed “in principle” to medical science seeking a solution, let alone if such a solution could be offered with little financial impact then one might be morally required to seek the solution.

I’m sorry you struggle under such a burdon. I have my own personal disordered sinfull inclinations that I struggle against too, everyone does. I wish to God I could be free of them though. This doesn’t mean God loves me any less.

You are morally “fine” in God’s eyes if you don’t commit sinful acts, but God’s plan is that each of us will be totally whole and healthy one day and we won’t be totally “fine” untill we are physically “fine” in addition to being morally “fine”.

 

[matthias]

One of my biggest concerns is this: There are many people who struggle with same sex attraction. Many of these people could struggle against this and live very morally upright healthy lives. But society keeps bombarding such people with the message that they can do anything they like with their bodies and God doesn’t care. This is a huge and additional burdon to put on these poor people’s sholders. It must cause an immense ammount of personal confusion to their lives and additional pressure.

Idealy those who suffer from such inclinations would be in a healthy environment where there was no question about the disorder of the act yet everyone loved and supported the individual to live a healthy chaste life (against the inclination). I am sure those with same sex attraction would have a much easier happier life if they were not confused by our immoral pop culture.

 

[pathia]

Trying therapy and prayer for my, what seemed to be, SSA only led me to depression, despondence, sloth and nearly death by my own hand. I was depressed before about my SSA, but the attempts to cure me only made it worse and worse. My parents spent thousands trying to fix me, only to seem to have thrown it all away for snake’s oil.

I’ve spoken with some of the ‘ex-gay’ figure heads of the community. When you talk to them in private, they will tell you they have not quite been cured, and merely have learned to be bisexual, or asexual. When they have sex with their wives, they often imagine themselves doing it with men (or women with ex-lesbians). Oh, they will always proclaim that there are those that have been totally cured, but every single one I have ever really gotten to know would admit privately they haven’t. That doesn’t mean it doesn’t work, or can’t work, but I’ve seen more damage than good.

This is of course my personal observation, and by no means meant to be any sort of scientific statement! I am only one person and not a scientist, this applies to my entire post. I do not proclaim to know the truth, only God can do that.

I have met many wrecks of human beings that blew their life’s savings trying to cure themselves. NARTH and the like only present to the public their perfect examples who are often on the payroll of one organization or another, none of the wash outs like myself. ‘Ex-Gay’ Organizations would not even speak to me anymore once I found out about my chromosome anomalies, because in my case it clearly could be shown to be something I was ‘born with’. If I confront them about what they did to me, and the hell I went through, they just sort of mumble and apologize and change the subject or dismiss me entirely.

I have no idea where the quote is from, but I think it is viable (and I am probably mangling it) “You can’t teach a fish to fly, but you can pick him up and throw him across the room. He’ll think he’s flying until he smacks into the wall.” This is why every few times a year, you have a huge fallout as some famous ‘ex-gay’ relapses into their SSA. I can’t imagine the trauma these families go through. Can you imagine your father having ‘cured’ himself of SSA, and then suffering from ‘relapses’ in your childhood?

Now, I am not saying that acting on SSA isn’t disordered or acting on it, sinful from a RCC/Christian perspective. I simply believe that NARTH and the various other groups that work towards ‘curing’ are going about it the wrong way. They are seeking for a perfect solution in an imperfect world. I believe chastity is the solution, which Jim and myself seem to have both taken as our ‘solution’.

(I dislike the term ‘ex-gay’ and that’s why I put quotes around it, but it’s the term they use for themselves…so…)

Rachel

 

[Riley259]

Because I have never engaged in the behavior but there is nothing that has been able to rid me of the attractions. All this bs suggesting therapy that costs through the roof. My God has consoled me in telling me I am completely fine the way I am. It bothers me that people can not come to the same conclusion.

The Catholic support group Courage does not compel those with same-sex attraction to change or reverse their attraction but it does insist on chastity. It appears as though you have mastered self-control with regards to your same-sex attractions and are faithfully abiding by the Church’s teaching in this area. If so and you are comfortable with your struggles then I say fine - people should leave you alone and not insist that you change…but, the labeling of same-sex attractions as disordered is still appropriate because upon your own admission you still do consistently have those attractions in your life and objectively they are not healthy or ultimately beneficial to you. I do applaud your courage in maintaining your chasity and faithfulness to the Church, however.

 

[Other_Eric]

Because I have never engaged in the behavior but there is nothing that has been able to rid me of the attractions. All this bs suggesting therapy that costs through the roof. My God has consoled me in telling me I am completely fine the way I am. It bothers me that people can not come to the same conclusion.

I think any organization that does not insist upon those with same-sex attractions finding a cure is peddling despair. Everyone is called to chastity, defined in the Catechism as “ the successful integration of sexuality within the person and thus the inner unity of man in his bodily and spiritual being.” (CCC 2337)

Since the sexuality is disordered in one with same-sex attractions, the sexuality cannot be integrated any more than blasphemy can be integrated into the Mass. Chastity presumes opposite-sex attraction and any system of morality that insists on anything less than this invokes scandal and moral relativism.

I have no sympathy for those who say that therapy is too expensive. Christians do not put a financial ceiling on their willingness to follow Christ. Nor should we feel sorry for those who say the therapy is too hard. The Way of the Cross is not meant to be easy. To be presented with a system of correctly ordering one’s passions and ignoring it is to make a conscious decision to remain disordered. In that case, the homosexual condition itself meets all three criteria for being a mortal sin, being freely chosen with adequate knowledge of the evil involved.

You are not fine the way you are. If same-sex attraction is a psychological ailment, you are sick and need help. If it is some sort of genetic anomaly then you are deformed and in need of medical intervention.

 

[pathia]

You are not fine the way you are. If same-sex attraction is a psychological ailment, you are sick and need help. If it is some sort of genetic anomaly then you are deformed and in need of medical intervention.

Genetic anomalies in general are not fixable. To fix my problem you would have to ‘remove’ a chromosome from every single cell in my body. That’s simply not feasible. Any research into accomplishing such a medical operation would involve fetal stem cells and myriad other unethical methods of treatment like human cloning etc.

I don’t mean to put words in your mouth, but if you are pushing for a genetic solution to curing homosexuality, there’s pretty much no way to research such a thing without violating dozens of other beliefs of the RCC about the sanctity of life.

Nearly everything you state here is contrary to the Church’s teachings. The Church itself admits that homosexuality could be genetic/‘born that way’, and thus the solution is chastity. You are advocating going contrary to the way God created someone, that’s a sin in itself.

Your comments honestly frighten me in their contrariness to the RCC’s teachings.

 

[rlg94086]

Actually, that’s not accurate. Scientists are currently working on “gene therapy” and genetic anomalies may indeed be fixable in the near future.

If they find that SSA is genetic, they may find a genetic therapy to “fix” it. That is a big “if” though. The scientific studies on genetic causes of homosexuality are flawed.

I’ve also read some writings by gay activists who oppose such research. Why? If you can prove that homosexuality is genetic, then it can be concluded to be a genetic defect.

Genetic anomalies in general are not fixable. To fix my problem you would have to ‘remove’ a chromosome from every single cell in my body. That’s simply not feasible.

The ‘error’ is in every single cell of my body, you cannot ‘fix’ something like that.

 

[pathia]

Actually, that’s not accurate. Scientists are currently working on “gene therapy” and genetic anomalies may indeed be fixable in the near future.

If they find that SSA is genetic, they may find a genetic therapy to “fix” it. That is a big “if” though. The scientific studies on genetic causes of homosexuality are flawed.

I’ve also read some writings by gay activists who oppose such research. Why? If you can prove that homosexuality is genetic, then it can be concluded to be a genetic defect.

That still would not even come close to fixing my problem, literally, genetically speaking I am 1.5x people. You’d have to ‘cut’ out .5 to ‘fix’ me. That’s not feasible without unethical practices.

Also for ‘normal’ SSA individuals, if it is genetic it likely has something to do with the development of the brain/hormone receptors. This means it could only be fixed by making a new clone of them that was straight. Their brain would still be ‘encoded’ to have SSA.

This is of course assuming a genetic cause. I myself favor a mixed cause, partially genetic, partially upbringing.

 

[rlg94086]

That still would not even come close to fixing my problem, literally, genetically speaking I am 1.5x people. You’d have to ‘cut’ out .5 to ‘fix’ me. That’s not feasible without unethical practices.

I have no idea whether it is feasible or not without unethical practices.

Perhaps not, but they may be able to prevent it from happening prior to birth in the future. Would that be unethical?

 

[Karianne]

I get the impression that you feel threatened when we say that homosexuality is intrinsically disordered. What is so uncharitable about calling homosexuality disordered?

How would you feel if someone told you that your son or daughter was intrinsically disordered? That wouldn’t hurt your feelings?

 

[pathia]

I have no idea whether it is feasible or not without unethical practices.

Perhaps not, but they may be able to prevent it from happening prior to birth in the future. Would that be unethical?

In my case it’s something that happens at the moment of conception. That is God’s world, not man’s. Literally, my issues were created exactly at the moment of conception. Either mom or dad contributed an XX or an XY, instead of just one X or one Y. You cannot alter births like me without messing with the natural process of procreation.

However, for abnormalities in the womb environment, that might be allowed…

 

[rlg94086]

How would you feel if someone told you that your son or daughter was intrinsically disordered? That wouldn’t hurt your feelings?

Not if it was true. It would sadden me that my child had such a burden to deal with, but it wouldn’t hurt my feelings.

My brother used to be bothered by the term “birth defect” and “handicapped” to describe his condition. When he grew up, he realized they don’t have an effect on his personhood. He indeed has a “birth defect,” but he is still a valuable human being and loved for who he is.

 

[Other_Eric]

Genetic anomalies in general are not fixable. To fix my problem you would have to ‘remove’ a chromosome from every single cell in my body. That’s simply not feasible. Any research into accomplishing such a medical operation would involve fetal stem cells and myriad other unethical methods of treatment like human cloning etc.

I don’t mean to put words in your mouth, but if you are pushing for a genetic solution to curing homosexuality, there’s pretty much no way to research such a thing without violating dozens of other beliefs of the RCC about the sanctity of life.

Nearly everything you state here is contrary to the Church’s teachings. The Church itself admits that homosexuality could be genetic/‘born that way’, and thus the solution is chastity. You are advocating going contrary to the way God created someone, that’s a sin in itself.

Your comments honestly frighten me in their contrariness to the RCC’s teachings.

Contrariness to Church teaching? I think not. One cannot imagine that Chastity is whatever one wants it to be. Chastity means something specific, which is why I included the quote from the Catechism about what it is. Further, you should not read “medical intervention” to always mean “cure.” A man without legs, for instance, requires the medical intervention of a wheelchair. Denying the reality that sexuality is meant to be directed to those of the opposite sex and that it is somehow “okay” to remain in a state opposed to this truth is deeply unchristian and contemptuous of the sexual faculty.

 

[rlg94086]

In my case it’s something that happens at the moment of conception. That is God’s world, not man’s. Literally, my issues were created exactly at the moment of conception. Either mom or dad contributed an XX or an XY, instead of just one X or one Y. You cannot alter births like me without messing with the natural process of procreation.

However, for abnormalities in the womb environment, that might be allowed…

Again, I have no idea whether a change in the womb would apply to a baby with your particular defect. However, that is not on-topic for this thread which is about homosexuality.

 

[pathia]

Contrariness to Church teaching? I think not. One cannot imagine that Chastity is whatever one wants it to be. Chastity means something specific, which is why I included the quote from the Catechism about what it is. Further, you should not read “medical intervention” to always mean “cure.” A man without legs, for instance, requires the medical intervention of a wheelchair. Denying the reality that sexuality is meant to be directed to those of the opposite sex and that it is somehow “okay” to remain in a state opposed to this truth is deeply unchristian and contemptuous of the sexual faculty.

Then you are saying every Priest I’ve ever spoken to is incorrect? None of them have ever advocated ‘curing’ homosexuality, merely chastity.

Genetically speaking, I have no ‘opposite’ sex. What the heck am I supposed to be attracted to then? Your arguments only seem sound in your own world, they do not appear logically valid outside.

 

[pathia]

Again, I have no idea whether a change in the womb would apply to a baby with your particular defect. However, that is not on-topic for this thread which is about homosexuality.

Most Catholics and Christians consider me a transsexual, and thus homosexual/SSA. That is how it applies to that particular situation.

 

[rlg94086]

Most Catholics and Christians consider me a transsexual, and thus homosexual/SSA. That is how it applies to that particular situation.

IMO if you don’t have an identifiable “opposite sex,” you can’t possibly be a homosexual. We are all called to chastity, but your situation is more difficult than mine or a person with SSA, in that you can’t choose to be with the opposite sex unless you can identify the opposite sex.

 

[Other_Eric]

Then you are saying every Priest I’ve ever spoken to is incorrect? None of them have ever advocated ‘curing’ homosexuality, merely chastity.

Genetically speaking, I have no ‘opposite’ sex. What the heck am I supposed to be attracted to then? Your arguments only seem sound in your own world, they do not appear logically valid outside.

There are a great many priests who no longer respect the teachings of the Church and believe it charitable to be silent on such matters. There are others who openly contradict the Church. It does not surprise me that you have run into many of them.

As for your own condition, surely you must be aware that even in the presence of genetic deformity, Church teaching affirms the existence of only two sexes. Even in your own confusing state, you are either male or female, not some combination of the two.

 

[Eireann]

While there is no proof yet that homosexuality is genetic, there is also no proof yet that it isn’t. Therefore I am of the opinion that it is a little biological as far as being attracted goes. How one behaves may be more determined by society but how one feels inside is pretty much determined before they have control over it.

God doesn’t see it as genetic.

Leviticus 20:13 **If any one lie with a man as with a woman, both have committed an abomination, let them be put to death: their blood be upon them. **

CCC 2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that “homosexual acts are **intrinsically disordered.”**142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. **Under no circumstances can they be approved. **

Having a sickness is a result of the Adamic sin, death is the result of the Adamic sin, being homosexual may be the result of sin.

While we may not be able to avoid bodily sickness, like God forbid cancer, we can avoid practicing homosexuality.

To me there is a difference, you can’t say to the person born blind, “don’t be blind” it’s unavoidable, but to the homosexual person, well they can avoid their sin of the flesh, even if it is a struggle for some.

Amen to Pope Benedict vxi