Pope Bluntly Faults Church's Focus on Gays and Abortion

[Robyn_p]

Funny. They still don’t know what to do with him. He doesn’t fit their script. In the media’s mind, loving the sinner can’t be separated from loving the sin, and vice versa.

So when someone like Francis comes along, who has an obvious love for sinners, they assume that means he thinks the sin is no big deal. And then when they find out he’s actually opposed to the sin, they’re shocked.

They just can’t see the difference between the sin and the sinner. And the fact that Francis does confuses them. But more than confusing them, he’s getting their attention, and the attention of the whole world. That’s awesome.

You keep on surprising us papa!

 

[ProVobis]

I couldn’t believe how twisted that news story was this morning. As soon as I heard it,I knew that the media was reporting our Pope’s words out of context.

They seem to be putting the focus on the very thing the Pope is warning against. At least that’s my opinion.

 

[agnes_therese]

On the topic of Pope Francis and the “**he said she said **” discussion, is/are there any bona fide contacts, whether it be Angel, newspaper or carrier pigeon that can be trusted to interpret the Popes words ?

He speaks very clearly, no need to someone to “interpret.”

 

[opus101]

Well lets be a bit fair. The Pope did say that anti-Abortion, gay marriage, contraception stuff be toned down i.e. balanced out.

I really don’t think he said that. I’m pretty much convinced that the press insisted he said that, and everyone believed it!

The text can be interpreted different ways. Even on CAF, we misunderstand the written words of each other quite often.

When I read through the interview, it is not at all clear that he was referring to the Church.
If he was, then he was, but it is not clear at all. To me, it sounded as if he was saying that the press does not have to limit its focus to the same questions all the time, and he does not feel obligated to respond to those topics ad nauseum in such an inappropriate context/venue.

 

[Fevronia]

I really don’t think he said that. I’m pretty much convinced that the press insisted he said that, and everyone believed it!

The text can be interpreted different ways. Even on CAF, we misunderstand the written words of each other quite often.

When I read through the interview, it is not at all clear that he was referring to the Church.
If he was, then he was, but it is not clear at all. To me, it sounded as if he was saying that the press does not have to limit its focus to the same questions all the time, and he does not feel obligated to respond to those topics ad nauseum in such an inappropriate context/venue.

I am not actually interpreting things here. It is actually what he said:

“The dogmatic and moral teachings of the church are not all equivalent. The church’s pastoral ministry cannot be obsessed with the transmission of a disjointed multitude of doctrines to be imposed insistently. Proclamation in a missionary style focuses on the essentials, on the necessary things: this is also what fascinates and attracts more, what makes the heart burn, as it did for the disciples at Emmaus. We have to find a new balance; otherwise even the moral edifice of the church is likely to fall like a house of cards, losing the freshness and fragrance of the Gospel. The proposal of the Gospel must be more simple, profound, radiant. It is from this proposition that the moral consequences then flow.

And from what he said above, it is his pastoral approach. He believes in ignoring most mistakes and correcting few things. I am not making that up either. This is what he said

According to St. Ignatius, great principles must be embodied in the circumstances of place, time and people. In his own way, John XXIII adopted this attitude with regard to the government of the church, when he repeated the motto, ‘See everything; turn a blind eye to much; correct a little.’ John XXIII saw all things, the maximum dimension, but he chose to correct a few, the minimum dimension.

So the media are not far away from the truth. One cannot through observation see the difference between a person who holds liberal doctrine and orthodox doctrine if the pastoral approach is a liberal one i.e. do not correct most mistakes. That is the problem here and that is why the media sees it as the Pope conceding ground to them.

Meanwhile the Pope thinks he is gaining ground. You have confusion all around.

What Pope Francis wants to try out was what we tried for 50 years in the North American and European part of the Church. It did not work and yet he still think it has promise, possibly because the approach is relatively new for South America. We can see that his experience is from his homeland when he speaks of tough preachers. We don’t have many of those. They do… somewhat… more than us at least.

I just do not understand why we cannot just follow what the Church used as her strategy for 2000 years. But I may just be a old timer

 

[YoungTradCath]

You don’t find it scandalous that the NYT implied that the Pope thinks abortion and gay marriage are perfectly fine?

What the MSM tend to do with the Pope’s words I do find reprehensible, but I am not sure I can bring myself to “blame” them as “guilty,” because I believe they are truly so lost that it is futile to try to hold them accountable.

 

[severus68]

Its capital C and not small c now?

Right, if your so sure you have it right about your Salvation thus your [c]atholic congregation then why not put it up for it is, and shout it from the rooftop?

Is that double standard? I think it might be.

Askin.g for personal information is against forum rules.

 

[severus68]

Sweetie I have a life…work…family…Im going to be a Nonna in January…my daughter and her husband have moved in with us…so has my son …2 yrs out of college no job… while you are in sack cloth and ashes questioning the Pope’s intentions…people are moving on with their lives. I think the Pope understands quite well what is going on in lives of ordinary people. So some of you all may know doctrine, dogma, and canon backwards and forward… but you are clueless when it comes to the “spirit of the law” . This Pope gets it. By their fruits you shall know them. Francis’ actions speak of genuine love …

 

[livingwordunity]

Askin.g for personal information is against forum rules.

I don’t see where GaryTaylor asked for personal information in his post. Personal information are things like their real name, email, phone number, address, social security number, etc. But asking someone if they are a Catholic or a small “c” catholic (not in union with Rome) isn’t asking for personal information. We have to at least know what religion or beliefs one belongs to to have honest dialog here.

 

[severus68]

I am not sure you defined what love is rather than just stated sentences that used the word, yes? The thing is, its hard to grasp it by example and it would be better if you can provide a definition. Can you do that?

Oh and “Love” is not an emotion. It is primarily in the will. That is a teaching of the Church.

Why are you pushing Julianna? Yes, the love that Christ taught was about the will To love our fellow men . However, the love of a mother towards her new born child is about a natural bond, about emotions, feelings. It is beautiful…

 

[severus68]

On a side note, didn’t we live in the last 50 years where sin was never even mentioned in the pulpit and the entire emphasis was on love and mercy?

Only in your world.

 

[severus68]

Well I certainly do not disagree with you. The point though is that the Priest is suppossed to teach them both (as Pope Francis himself concludes). But we know that today the Priests do not do that at all but instead do tend to just emphasize “love” and “mercy”. But Pope Francis states as if we have to reduce preaching morals and increase the love and mercy message because that is what is keeping the faithful away from the Church. So then what will result is more reduction in the moral message and the continual preaching of the love/mercy message.

But what we see from our current track record is that parishes that just emphasize these things are not doing well. They had a big rise in numbers initially but now have died away.

On the other hand, countries like Asia and Africa where this love/mercy message is not so big and faith and morals are taught without any hesitation, we see a thriving.

So one cannot help but think this is not the way, right?

No love and mercy in Asia and Africa? Just fire and brimstone and a stick to get them to behave.

 

[severus68]

Not here to be your guinea pig darlin’. I gave you my tboughts. Good luck on your thesis…

 

[Fevronia]

No love and mercy in Asia and Africa? Just fire and brimstone and a stick to get them to behave.

Yes, and they are doing just fine. You should see how they treat gays in Africa.

The point is, the part of the Church that is doing the worst today is the part that for 50 years did emphasize love and mercy over everything else.

 

[JoeCarpenter]

Hi, this is my first post here. I read about what Pope Francis said yesterday and wanted to see what actual Catholics thought about it so I ended up here. After reading this thread I thought you guys might like to have some perspective from the type of person Pope Francis was probably trying to reach with his interview, a lapsed Catholic.

I was extremely uplifted by what he said yesterday. The fact is that the issues he brought up really are the main reasons I am not an active Catholic anymore. From my point of view, the Church has been overly focused on pointing out and chastising sinners in the world. I know most of you will disagree with me there, but that is just how it has felt to me. It was completely refreshing to hear that Pope Francis wants to move away from that.

To be clear, I completely understand that he did not change the positions on abortion or gays or anything else. But the change in emphasis and tone is a huge deal to me.

I would like to consider myself pro-life but I definitely do not fit into the typical pro-life attitude. Honestly I feel like a lot of Catholics might categorize me as pro-choice, maybe that is true I don’t know. I can only tell you what I believe. I believe abortion is wrong and a sin but at the same time I do not believe in demonizing those who seek and get abortions. The people who get abortions do not realize it is wrong, or even more tragically do realize it is wrong but feel so lost and hopeless that they go through with it anyway. The idea of standing in front of an abortion clinic protesting someone in that condition is terrible to me. I believe in stopping abortions by offering people hope, not by shaming them or treating them like criminals. In the past I felt my viewpoint was completely unwelcome in the Church so I left.

Basically Pope Francis’ comments have made me consider attending Mass this Sunday for the first time in several years. It felt like he was honestly inviting someone like me back. I haven’t decided whether I’ll actually go yet, but I’m excited about the future of the Church now.

 

[livingwordunity]

didn’t we live in the last 50 years where sin was never even mentioned in the pulpit and the entire emphasis was on love and mercy?

I know what you mean. With the exception of the Lenten season, in the 20 years that I’ve been a Catholic it seems that homilies in general focus more on love and mercy and not so much about how we are sinners. But I think because of pride some people are hypersensitive and never want to be told they are a sinner.

 

[Jeanne_S]

Funny. They still don’t know what to do with him. He doesn’t fit their script. In the media’s mind, loving the sinner can’t be separated from loving the sin, and vice versa.

So when someone like Francis comes along, who has an obvious love for sinners, they assume that means he thinks the sin is no big deal. And then when they find out he’s actually opposed to the sin, they’re shocked.

They just can’t see the difference between the sin and the sinner. And the fact that Francis does confuses them. But more than confusing them, he’s getting their attention, and the attention of the whole world. That’s awesome.

You keep on surprising us papa!

You nailed it! Hearing some of the commentary on liberal radio this morning,this is exactly what is going on!The libs are all agog over what they perceive as the Church finally “getting it” as it pertains to the hot button social issues.The Catholic Church in their minds is finally coming around,overcoming all the hate that pervades within.It really is pretty stunning to observe.The are hell bent on making Pope Francis into the progressive liberal they need him to be!

 

[StudentMI]

Yes, and they are doing just fine. You should see how they treat gays in Africa.

The point is, the part of the Church that is doing the worst today is the part that for 50 years did emphasize love and mercy over everything else.

You mean in Europe? The Church began losing members in Europe long before Vatican II.

 

[severus68]

I don’t see where GaryTaylor asked for personal information in his post. Personal information are things like their real name, email, phone number, address, social security number, etc. But asking someone if they are a Catholic or a small “c” catholic (not in union with Rome) isn’t asking for personal information. We have to at least know what religion or beliefs one belongs to to have honest dialog here.

Asking the name of someone’s parish church is personal information and that is what he did and insisted on knowing.

 

[livingwordunity]

Asking the name of someone’s parish church is personal information and that is what he did and insisted on knowing.

Ok, if he did ask for that then I agree that it’s personal information.