Pope Bluntly Faults Church's Focus on Gays and Abortion

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agnes_therese said:
Live the Gospel first, that’s what he’s saying. All else will follow. If we draw people to Christ, their hearts will be changed – that’s what the Church and the saints have taught for centuries.
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If he said that simply in the interview, he would have said that without the cluttered language and intentional omissions that might offend seculars.

my only trust is that Christ and his Mother will help the Holy Father. Not in misguided laity trying to double down on the cult of personality involving the personhood of the Vicar of Christ.
I really don’t understand why this is suddenly so controversial.
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I am perplexed by any Catholic who doesn’t feel a deep sorrow for the state of the Church, when this happens involving such scandal. I only feel a sense of foreboding, that there will be only more division within the Church.

I am wondering if this is how it was when the laity had to deal with the weak popes of the 10th and 14th centuries as well as weak Clergy individuals. Except only now, the public imperfections are not so obvious materially, but more subtle intellectually.
If pages across several Catholic forums are in discussion about what is to be a simple interview, something clearly is not right. Regardless of which opinions differ in this thread. I bet the laity were more honest with themselves and still more trusting in the public sinner popes, than they are today, because there was no room for the cult of personality when his personal foibles were out in the open for no one to doubt in the case of the borgia popes.
 
GaryTaylor said:
Nothing new historically. You get to follow in obedience as always… We love you!😉
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And I do intend to follow him. I however will not stop “obsessing” over pro-life issues because some view them as inconvenient and an obstacle to dissenters.
 
Oh, man, I’m late to the party! When I started to see all the typical media hub-ub around this interview, I wanted to join the conversation here at CAF, but I don’t think I have time to sift through the previous 600+ posts. :o

Perhaps others have already posted this same point a dozen times already, but I think the best quote from the interview that helps to succinctly illustrate what Pope Francis is getting at is this:

A beautiful homily, a genuine sermon must begin with the first proclamation, with the proclamation of salvation. There is nothing more solid, deep and sure than this proclamation. Then you have to do catechesis. Then you can draw even a moral consequence. But the proclamation of the saving love of God comes before moral and religious imperatives. Today sometimes it seems that the opposite order is prevailing.

He is not talking about cutting out catechesis or changing moral teaching. He is simply talking about putting first things first. When we lead off with moral teachings condemning this or that instead of with the simple truth of the saving, merciful love of Jesus Christ, then those to whom we speak will accept neither. If we start of with the proclamation of that core Gospel message and it takes root, then they will accept both.

He’s really just urging us to keep the proper focus. No change in teaching, of course. Now if only we could get the media to understand this… 😛
 
AdvanceAlways said:
And in turn, do you respect those of us who (respecting him as the Pope) are not overjoyed with his papacy?
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Had I stated anything that to you all who want turn the clock bad to tbe 1950s…in disagreement with a Pope you all would have been all over me like white on rice. Besides Mr Bay stated we cannot post such on CAF. …so I didn’t. I do respect your iew on this topic…however I find the visa versa not reciprocated. More like a Pharisee lecture.
 
AdvanceAlways said:
And I do intend to follow him. I however will not stop “obsessing” over pro-life issues because some view them as inconvenient and an obstacle to dissenters.
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Oh I don’t believe he asked anyone to abandon their cause, I’m of the impressed the compass is more in the middle than left or right though.
 
Julianna said:
Had I stated anything that you all who want turn the clock bad to tbe 1950s…in disagreement with a Pope you all would have been all o er .dime wbjte on rice. Besides Mr Bay stated we cannot post such on CAF. …so I didn’t. I do respect your iew on this topic…however I find the visa versa not reciprocated. More like a Pharisee lecture.
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Criticizing someone who is vocally supporting abortion is now a pharisee lecture? (not referring to you.)
 
“If the Christian is a restorationist, a legalist, if he wants everything clear and safe, then he will find nothing. Tradition and memory of the past must help us to have the courage to open up new areas to God. Those who today always look for disciplinarian solutions, those who long for an exaggerated doctrinal ‘security,’ those who stubbornly try to recover a past that no longer exists—they have a static and inward-directed view of things.** In this way, faith becomes an ideology among other ideologies**."*

From the interview
 
gracepoole said:
Please enlighten me! When have I treated faithful Catholics negatively on this thread?

And you don’t need me to tell you what’s forbidden here – read the forum rules.
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I am not going to go back over every post you have written on this thread just to please you.

I have read the forum rules and I have not violated them. I responded to someone else (not you) when they promoted anti-Catholic beliefs. That is my right and my duty as a Catholic.

KNK
 
AdvanceAlways said:
The Bucket, I do maintain that the message makes sense, but we’re seeing the consequence for what has happened with the message, people will leave the Church, the SSPX’s pews will be a bit fuller this Sunday. Traditionalists (who have just as many rights in the Church as you) are feeling hurt and betrayed. This is a scary thing because the secular world now believes they have their Pope. To those who uphold Catholic truths, the secular world will say he is not your Pope, he is ours. They will say the Pope does not care about marriage or abortion. That is why some of us are scared.
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Don’t cast me as someone who is against you. I love the TLM, I’m a big “smells and bells” guy, believe in the doctrine fully and follow it as best as a sinner can. I’m certainly a major pro-life supporter (how could I not be?!) and doubtless vote the same way you do and proudly so.
I’d also like to add that the whole message that Francis is sending here is not new in the post Vatican II world. This whole idea that we ought not to correct error has seemingly led to a collapse in Church attendance, a world where the majority of American Catholics don’t believe in the real presence, and where Catholics think that Vatican II gave them a licence to follow their “conscience.”
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So it’s a new thing that the rank and file do not follow the doctrine of the Church? No. It’s not. It’s as old as time. Most of Paul’s letters were corrections of heresies, illicit practices and just outright grave sin. So it’s not like there was ever a time where we were all choir boys and girls. Sin was maybe just a bit more hidden than it is today. Then again, since the most popular book in the 1500s was an erotic novel written by a pope, maybe it wasn’t as hidden in the past.

There are always going to be more “dissidents” than there are faithful. That’s how it goes. How can we bring those dissidents back? By admonishing them? By confrontation out of righteous anger? Or should we perhaps preach the way St. Francis did; through action, obedience and example.
 
Joe_5859 said:
He’s really just urging us to keep the proper focus. No change in teaching, of course. Now if only we could get the media to understand this… 😛
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We can’t even get the proper focus and understanding here! How can you expect the secular media to understand it? Oh well.
 
anglicanusepapa said:
I am not going to go back over every post you have written on this thread just to please you.

I have read the forum rules and I have not violated them. I responded to someone else (not you) when they promoted anti-Catholic beliefs. That is my right and my duty as a Catholic.

KNK
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Just FYI, there’s a search feature at the top of each thread that allows you to look for posts by individual contributors. It’s actually fairly simple. And you wouldn’t be doing it to “please” me – you’d be doing it to support your own claim.
 
Good for Pope Francis! He reminds me of Pope John Paul. No, not John Paul II who presided over the church when the molestations and cover-ups took place, but John Paul who was Pope for only about 33 days, who some say was planning to investigate the Vatican Bank and others say was planning to remove the ban on contraception.
  • kathie :bowdown:
 
The_Bucket said:
Don’t cast me as someone who is against you. I love the TLM, I’m a big “smells and bells” guy, believe in the doctrine fully and follow it as best as a sinner can. I’m certainly a major pro-life supporter (how could I not be?!) and doubtless vote the same way you do and proudly so.

So it’s a new thing that the rank and file do not follow the doctrine of the Church? No. It’s not. It’s as old as time. Most of Paul’s letters were corrections of heresies, illicit practices and just outright grave sin. So it’s not like there was ever a time where we were all choir boys and girls. Sin was maybe just a bit more hidden than it is today. Then again, since the most popular book in the 1500s was an erotic novel written by a pope, maybe it wasn’t as hidden in the past.

There are always going to be more “dissidents” than there are faithful. That’s how it goes. How can we bring those dissidents back? By admonishing them? By confrontation out of righteous anger? Or should we perhaps preach the way St. Francis did; through action, obedience and example.
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Your last paragraph seemed to sum it up quite nicely. If that is the message of Pope Francis, than I have no problems with it. In my years of pro-life work, I’ve always been one of the first to tell people to stop yelling, to stop degrading, it won’t save any child and it will only hurt more people. Leading through charity and love is of course, the Christ like way, but I believe it must be, well, as the Pope said, balanced. If we simply lead with love but don’t correct, no one is truly being helped. If the Church is a hospital (and I love that he is using this whole Orthodox vision of the Church), then that implies that we are all wounded and must be accountable for our sins. I’m thankful that I’ve had people in my life who led by example, but corrected me when I was in sin or error. People practicing the evil sins against humanity such as abortion, human trafficking, etc, must be shown kindness but they must be told that their actions are truly wrong. Thanks for bearing with me!
 
Discernment, think about it. The article is a call for patient reflection. Consider God in the great and small issues. Use our history and present doctrine, and develop a considered dynamic for The Mystical Body of Christ to be in, but not of, this time and circumstance. This is not just a call for collegiality, but an oppotunity to let the voice of the people inform a Pope who is listening.

Peace
 
harinkj said:
Good for Pope Francis! He reminds me of Pope John Paul. No, not John Paul II who presided over the church when the molestations and cover-ups took place, but John Paul who was Pope for only about 33 days, who some say was planning to investigate the Vatican Bank and others say was planning to remove the ban on contraception.
  • kathie :bowdown:
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One of the rules here is we don’t condemn clerics, that includes John Paul II. (And this isn’t a forum rule, but conspiracies do nothing for dialogue.)
 
Ah but again AA, your conscience is well-formed and you are well-grounded in the faith environment. So correction does not sound like condemnation. Francis is interesting in saving souls. So even if we are correcting and not condemning, we have to take supreme care that those who hear our message do not feel condemned or alienated.

Failure to ensure that the message is as primed as possible to be well-received is a failure to win souls. We cannot bring all or even many to Christ, for the Lord Himself conceded that there are times when we throw our seed that it will land on the road and be trampled underfoot, but we have to make sure that if we hit fertile soil that the seed is ready to explode one-hundredfold.
 
This just in from Pope Francis:

“Each one of us is invited to recognize in the fragile human being the face of the Lord, who, in his human flesh, experienced the indifference and loneliness to which we often condemn the poorest, either in the developing nations or in the developed societies. Each child that is unborn, but is unjustly condemned to be aborted, bears the face of Jesus Christ, bears the face of the Lord, who, even before he was born, and then as soon as he was born experienced the rejection of the world. And also each old person and - I spoke of the child, let us also speak of the elderly, another point! And each old person, even if infirm or at the end of his days, bears the face of Christ. They cannot be discarded, as the “culture of waste” proposes! They cannot be discarded!”

Let’s let NARAL issue a statement over that. (And let’s go pay some attention to the thread about this quote.)
 
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