Pope Bluntly Faults Church's Focus on Gays and Abortion

[Julianna]

Your claim is bizarre and unprovable. Even within the story, your father didn’t hear the priest say that someone should have their hands cut off. He was only going off of what a child said that she thought she heard the priest say. The child could have been mistaken about what she thought she heard. Kids have great imaginations. The story is of second-hand hearsay from a child which we have no way of judging the child’s credibility. And, like I said, even if that did happen to your father it would only be relevant to your father and to one priest at that time in 1939 since the Catholic Church was never known for requiring people’s hands to be cut off. If you had said that a Muslim cleric said this it would be believable since cutting off one’s hands is a common punishment in Islamic Sharia Law. But you saying that your father said it happened with a priest doesn’t prove it to have been a universal norm in the Catholic Church. What you are doing is trying to get us to accept a logical fallacy of a story based entirely on hearsay to somehow get us to believe that a story so bizarre represented a universal norm in the Catholic Church.

I have no words…:blackeye:

 

[CatholicHockey7]

I totally agree with what you said. As far as I can recall, I have hardly ever heard the issue of abortion being mentioned in homily. The Holy Father must know that. So what is his purpose of saying what he said in the interview?

Both abortion and homosexuality haven’t been mentioned even when the Gospel readings could produce a sermon on that topic. I hope these priests realize that they are responsible for their flock, to lead them on the straight and narrow path to eternal life.

**James 3:1 **Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.

As I stated in a previous posting, Francis is not specifically addressing the homily. He is addressing the PUBLIC IMAGE of the Church.

Right or wrong, the public perception of our Church is one of corruption, scandal and hatred. This is because all the stories reported in the last 30 years have fed the belief that Catholic priests are gay and/or child molestors, Catholics hate anyone associated with abortion, and we think God sent AIDS to kill off the homosexuals.

Part of these errors stem from the linking of other non-Catholic Christians to the Church. Why? Because the Church is the largest organization on the planet and we have a very visible symbol in the pope.

Francis is trying to change that perception and invite those who Jesus would call “the least of my brothers” to come and learn about how much He loves each and every one of us and is calling us to a better life with Him.

This is not about the homily, it is about the outside world having a wrong perception that our Church is not about love.

 

[JoeCarpenter]

JoeCarpenter -

I am assuming that you are sincere in your post.

I think you misunderstand the attitude of pro-life catholics toward the women who have had an abortion. The attitude and message of catholic pro-life groups is one of compassion and healing, not demonization. Have you ever heard of project Rachel? It is a program that pro-life groups promote for women who have had abortions that offers hope, healing and forgiveness. Now, I don’t know where you get the wrong impression about this - but it is indeed wrong. The message of hope and forgiveness is not unwelcome as you wrongly suggest. The people who stand in front of abortion clinics do offer hope and information - an alternative to killing a baby. Now they apparently offer ultrasounds via mobile ultrasound vans. The message of despair is put out by the abortion providers - who brainwash the women that they have no other alternative other than to kill their baby: “A baby? How inconvenient. Kill it.” That is what is said - and it is evil. The providers need forgiveness as well. Fine. But I believe the practice should be illegal - as its murder.

Your impression is incorrect. I have no idea how you got that impression - except that it is a false narrative conveyed by propaganda from the other side - the side that wants abortions to continue.

Glad you’re thinking of coming back - not sure why it would take the abortion issue to do so.

Ishii

Abortion is not the only reason I fell away from the Church, but it is the most obvious and common example of the way I feel/felt the Church has put too much emphasis on condemning others instead of helping them.

I know that pro-life abortion clinic protesters have the best intentions and believe they are offering those women hope, but that is not how it looks to the outside. And although I don’t have personal experience, I doubt that is how women seeking abortion see it. How many abortions are prevented because a woman sees the protesters, feels willing to talk with them and changes her mind? I don’t know for sure, but it is hard to imagine that is happening. I do not disagree with the practice because I like abortion. I disagree with the practice because I don’t think it is helping anyone.

I know you did not say this, but someone else made an analogy that taking a more positive and loving approach to stopping abortions is like suggesting we should have taken a more positive and loving approach to stopping the Holocaust. I strongly disagree with that comparison, but I am very aware that that is how many Catholics see people like me.

That is why I did not, and honestly still don’t, feel completely welcome in the Church.

 

[CaliLobo]

Abortion is not the only reason I fell away from the Church, but it is the most obvious and common example of the way I feel/felt the Church has put too much emphasis on condemning others instead of helping them.

I know that pro-life abortion clinic protesters have the best intentions and believe they are offering those women hope, but that is not how it looks to the outside. And although I don’t have personal experience, I doubt that is how women seeking abortion see it. How many abortions are prevented because a woman sees the protesters, feels willing to talk with them and changes her mind? I don’t know for sure, but it is hard to imagine that is happening. I do not disagree with the practice because I like abortion. I disagree with the practice because I don’t think it is helping anyone.

I know you did not say this, but someone else made an analogy that taking a more positive and loving approach to stopping abortions is like suggesting we should have taken a more positive and loving approach to stopping the Holocaust. I strongly disagree with that comparison, but I am very aware that that is how many Catholics see people like me.

That is why I did not, and honestly still don’t, feel completely welcome in the Church.

“We cannot insist only on issues related to abortion, gay marriage and the use of contraceptive methods. This is not possible. I have not spoken much about these things, and I was reprimanded for that. But when we speak about these issues, we have to talk about them in a context. The teaching of the church, for that matter, is clear and I am a son of the church, but it is not necessary to talk about these issues all the time.

The dogmatic and moral teachings of the church are not all equivalent. The church’s pastoral ministry cannot be obsessed with the transmission of a disjointed multitude of doctrines to be imposed insistently. Proclamation in a missionary style focuses on the essentials, on the necessary things: this is also what fascinates and attracts more, what makes the heart burn, as it did for the disciples at Emmaus. We have to find a new balance; otherwise even the moral edifice of the church is likely to fall like a house of cards, losing the freshness and fragrance of the Gospel. The proposal of the Gospel must be more simple, profound, radiant. It is from this proposition that the moral consequences then flow.

“I say this also thinking about the preaching and content of our preaching. A beautiful homily, a genuine sermon must begin with the first proclamation, with the proclamation of salvation. There is nothing more solid, deep and sure than this proclamation. Then you have to do catechesis. Then you can draw even a moral consequence. But the proclamation of the saving love of God comes before moral and religious imperatives. Today sometimes it seems that the opposite order is prevailing. The homily is the touchstone to measure the pastor’s proximity and ability to meet his people, because those who preach must recognize the heart of their community and must be able to see where the desire for God is lively and ardent. The message of the Gospel, therefore, is not to be reduced to some aspects that, although relevant, on their own do not show the heart of the message of Jesus Christ.”

Yes! Looks like Francis is finally bringing changes to the Catholic Church that are sorely needed.

Without these changes, people like JoeCarpenter are leaving the Church in droves.

I have said many times in previous threads that the CC overemphasizes political advocacy against gay marriage and abortion rights. But what the CC needs to focus more on is preaching the Gospel.

Preaching the Gospel is the best and only way to change people’s behavior. Not meddling into politics.

If the CC doesn’t change, it will still survive, but only as a tiny, remnant, irrelevant church.

 

[catholicguy25]

Both abortion and homosexuality haven’t been mentioned even when the Gospel readings could produce a sermon on that topic. I hope these priests realize that they are responsible for their flock, to lead them on the straight and narrow path to eternal life.

**James 3:1 **Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.

So True Danny… i can’t recall having ever heard a homily about abortion or gay marriage, even though often the Gospel talks about such topics… I admit that one time i heard a homily about divorce, but that’s it!!! if anything, i wish priests would talk about those topics more often, at least once a month. It wouldn’t hurt to remind Catholics about how abortion and gay marriage are mortal sins… I’m saying this, because there are catholics whose only connection with the catholic faith is on Sundays when they attend mass.

 

[YoungTradCath]

So, who ever said protesting abortomills,politically and otherwise, is not an exercise of the Gospel? Should we just sit around all day and pray it away? Prayer works, but it compels to act.

I can’t change the image of the Church. And I don’t think stopping crisis pregnancy centers and prayer outside of abortion mills is going to do anything except make Catholics look like a bunch of weak, ineffectual, uncommitted losers, and plus, it will result in the slaughter of more babies. If we are “irrelevant” now, wait and see how irrelevant we will be when we sit around with our faces shoved shamefully in a corner, refusing to say anything, ever.

Sitting around hoping for things to happen does not, has never and will not work. Yes, we pray. Yes, we do it out of a Gospel conviction. And yes, that compels us to act.

I’m not sure where some have gotten the idea that the point is to be the most popular kid on the block.

 

[catholicguy25]

Abortion is not the only reason I fell away from the Church, but it is the most obvious and common example of the way I feel/felt the Church has put too much emphasis on condemning others instead of helping them.

I know that pro-life abortion clinic protesters have the best intentions and believe they are offering those women hope, but that is not how it looks to the outside. And although I don’t have personal experience, I doubt that is how women seeking abortion see it. How many abortions are prevented because a woman sees the protesters, feels willing to talk with them and changes her mind? I don’t know for sure, but it is hard to imagine that is happening. I do not disagree with the practice because I like abortion. I disagree with the practice because I don’t think it is helping anyone.

I know you did not say this, but someone else made an analogy that taking a more positive and loving approach to stopping abortions is like suggesting we should have taken a more positive and loving approach to stopping the Holocaust. I strongly disagree with that comparison, but I am very aware that that is how many Catholics see people like me.

That is why I did not, and honestly still don’t, feel completely welcome in the Church.

Sir… or Ma’am. What’s wrong with the tactics employed by the pro life movement ? are those tactics “aggressive”? if anything, they are peaceful!! remember that slavery came to an end after a WAR took place…
Millions of babies throughout the world die every year because of abortion.

 

[anthonymarie]

As I stated in a previous posting, Francis is not specifically addressing the homily. He is addressing the PUBLIC IMAGE of the Church.

Hi CatholicHockey7, thanks for taking the time to answer.

I completely respect your interpretation but I personally struggle with it. I can’t help but feel it implies a degree of inarticulacy of the pope that is scandalous. I think he is more intellectual than he lets on and I think he could have found a more appropriate way to articulate what you are saying than by saying the church is obsessed with abortion if he doesn’t believe it is.

To say that the church IS obsessed with abortion is to say just that. In what sense is the church obsessed with it? An obsession is not something that can be predicated of an image. An obsession is something a person, or a group of people, exhibit. Which people? And what did they do that they are percieved by the Holy Father, not just the secular world, as obsessed?

 

[migueltojose]

The Church focuses on the issues that the secular media focuses on (and vice versa) and the secular society riddled by secular relativism has seemingly succumbed.

Politicians and the media use these wedge issues to divide and conquer the Catholic vote and render the Catholic Church in America politically irrelevant.

Both sides of the Church, (right/left, liberal/conservative, social justice left/social justice right) – dig in and fight. Then we both come across as judgemental, self righteous and sanctimonious. We get an assist for being played by the the politicians, the media and the militant secular relativists.

I think the Pope is saying “don’t play”… “don’t get played” …

Show love and mercy while maintaining your credentials.

I would recommend everyone to study the Marian apparitions. Particularly Fatima and Our Lady of America. Saint Faustina too. I can’t see how these can’t convince anyone to repent and be saved. How they can’t convince anyone of the validity of the Catholic Church. Saint Faustina (Jesus) begins the Chaplet of Divine Mercy with OUR Creed. Jesus… Our Creed…

That’s powerful stuff.

 

[anthonymarie]

Sitting around hoping for things to happen does not, has never and will not work. Yes, we pray. Yes, we do it out of a Gospel conviction. And yes, that compels us to act.

Hi YoungTradCath,

That’s so true and surely the Holy Father must agree with you. The founder of his own order is credited with saying: “act as if everything depended on you; trust as if everything depended on God.” The question is then who are his comments on abortion refering to?

I sometimes wish that there was a system within in the church for a member of the laity (or even a group of members) to ask for comfirmation over a point like this without coming across as subversive. I said it in my earlier post but, again, these comments on abortion have been printed on the front page of almost every newspaper in the world and the Holy Father must have known from experience that they would be. What do they mean?

 

[CatholicHockey7]

Hi CatholicHockey7, thanks for taking the time to answer.

I completely respect your interpretation but I personally struggle with it. I can’t help but feel it implies a degree of inarticulacy of the pope that is scandalous. I think he is more intellectual than he lets on and I think he could have found a more appropriate way to articulate what you are saying than by saying the church is obsessed with abortion if he doesn’t believe it is.

To say that the church IS obsessed with abortion is to say just that. In what sense is the church obsessed with it? An obsession is not something that can be predicated of an image. An obsession is something a person, or a group of people, exhibit. Which people? And what did they do that they are percieved by the Holy Father, not just the secular world, as obsessed?

I agree he could have made his statements much clearer than he did. He’s far more intelligent than I am.

I think the evidence he uses for his claims about our obsessions are based in part on the Catholic Church’s never-ending political battle against pro-choice and gay marriage legislation in the developed world where stories spread like wildfire through global media outlets. I agree with the Church’s position on those issues, but our public relations arm has failed us in making it clear we are distinguishing between the action and those acting. The message that comes across has not been one of love, which is what Francis is saying it should be.

Then we get caught up in the shouting match between left and right hoping that we can win by being louder than the other guy.

The other problem is the false link the media tries to make between non-Catholic Christians and the pope. They act like he is the leader of ALL Christians, when many don’t even accept the papacy as legitimate (in spite of scripture).

Many of these groups are just as active as the Church in fighting abortion and gay marriage, and the media is all too happy to make that connection.

 

[tradcathconvert]

Double

 

[migueltojose]

Hi YoungTradCath,

That’s so true and surely the Holy Father must agree with you. The founder of his own order is credited with saying: “act as if everything depended on you; trust as if everything depended on God.” The question is then who are his comments on abortion refering to?

I sometimes wish that there was a system within in the church for a member of the laity (or even a group of members) to ask for comfirmation over a point like this without coming across as subversive. I said it in my earlier post but, again, these comments on abortion have been printed on the front page of almost every newspaper in the world and the Holy Father must have known from experience that they would be. What do they mean?

I don’t think it was an olive branch. It was the truth. There’s no conflict between these quotes and the interview widely circulated from the other day…

*Sep 20 Pope Francis denounces abortion after decrying church’s focus on rules

VATICAN CITY Pope Francis offered an olive branch of sorts to the doctrine-minded, conservative wing of the Catholic Church on Friday as he denounced abortions as a symptom of today’s “throw-away culture” and encouraged Catholic doctors to refuse to perform them.

Francis issued a strong anti-abortion message and cited Vatican teaching on the need to defend the unborn during an audience with Catholic gynecologists.

It came a day after he was quoted as blasting the church’s obsession with “small-minded rules” that are driving the faithful away. In an interview that has sent shockwaves through the church, Francis urged its pastors to focus on being merciful and welcoming rather than insisting only on such divisive, hot-button issues as abortion, gay marriage and contraception.

(truncated)*

 

[Robert_Bay]

MODERTOR NOTE

This thread is wandering, please stay on the topic of the original post

 

[Beautiful]

So, who ever said protesting abortomills,politically and otherwise, is not an exercise of the Gospel? Should we just sit around all day and pray it away? Prayer works, but it compels to act.

I can’t change the image of the Church. And I don’t think stopping crisis pregnancy centers and prayer outside of abortion mills is going to do anything except make Catholics look like a bunch of weak, ineffectual, uncommitted losers, and plus, it will result in the slaughter of more babies. If we are “irrelevant” now, wait and see how irrelevant we will be when we sit around with our faces shoved shamefully in a corner, refusing to say anything, ever.

Sitting around hoping for things to happen does not, has never and will not work. Yes, we pray. Yes, we do it out of a Gospel conviction. And yes, that compels us to act.

I’m not sure where some have gotten the idea that the point is to be the most popular kid on the block.

It took me a couple days of steaming to finally write something here. I understand completely where you are coming from.

What really disturbs me is how abortion and gay lifestyle is measured out equally in the same thought.
Yes, I am angry.
Oh, I don’t expect to be popular here.

 

[Beautiful]

And furthermore…I have heard very few homilies dedicated to preserving life in the womb…that is from about 40 years worth of homilies. And I have never heard a homily mention condemnation of gay lifestyle.
Who is obsessed with focusing on gays, contraceptions and abortions…only those that partake or struggle in those actions!
And naturally too, all those who are damaged by the fallout.

 

[Country_Gal]

65. The Homily is part of the Liturgy and is strongly recommended, for it is necessary for the nurturing of the Christian life. It should be an exposition of some aspect of the readings from Sacred Scripture or of another text from the Ordinary or from the Proper of the Mass of the day and should take into account both the mystery being celebrated and the particular needs of the listeners.

In other words, the Homily is the part of the liturgy and is a commentary of the scripture readings. It’s not akin to a Protestant sermon, where the minister can choose any subject and cite scriptures of his choosing to support his ideas.

 

[anthonymarie]

What really disturbs me is how abortion and gay lifestyle is out measured equally in the same thought.

I desperately want to give the Holy Father the benefit of the doubt (I genuinely believe he’s a good and holy man) but this comment seems to me to play right into the hands of those who have been accusing the church of being obsessed with sex and lumping abortion, contraception, gay lifestyle and chastity all into that topic: “sex”. I pray that it does not discourage young Catholics from getting involved in the pro-life movement.

Yes, I am angry.
Oh, I don’t expect to be popular here.

I think it is natural to be angry. I work in a Catholic Institute and when I went into the staffroom on Friday I was met by some of my self-proclaimed “liberal” colleagues gloating over several of the popes comments from the interview but particularly this one. I went home and read the interview and at first I felt so much anger and, I’m ashamed to say, *hate *that I immediatly texted a priest friend and arranged confession. I’ve since calmed down a lot. At the end of the day I know it’s not right for me to put my opinion above the Holy Father’s. However, I will continual to have reservations about the intention of this particular statement and based on what I have read here today, and the conversations I have had since yesterday, I think the meaning of it is going to remain a mystery for some time.

 

[Beautiful]

I desperately want to give the Holy Father the benefit of the doubt (I genuinely believe he’s a good and holy man) but this comment seems to me to play right into the hands of those who have been accusing the church of being obsessed with sex and lumping abortion, contraception, gay lifestyle and chastity all into that topic: “sex”. I pray that it does not discourage young Catholics from getting involved in the pro-life movement.
Anyone called and with conviction will not be discouraged. And yes, desperate is a good word to describe how I want to the Holy Father the benefit of the doubt.

I think it is natural to be angry. I work in a Catholic Institute and when I went into the staffroom on Friday I was met by some of my self-proclaimed “liberal” colleagues gloating over several of the popes comments from the interview but particularly this one. I went home and read the interview and at first I felt so much anger and, I’m ashamed to say, *hate *that I immediatly texted a priest friend and arranged confession. I’ve since calmed down a lot. At the end of the day I know it’s not right for me to put my opinion above the Holy Father’s. However, I will continual to have reservations about the intention of this particular statement and based on what I have read here today, and the conversations I have had since yesterday, I think the meaning of it is going to remain a mystery for some time.

I too, have considered arranging confession because my thoughts are just really bad.

 

[rafarose]

Hi, like others here, I’m new today and here out of concern (or perhaps confusion). I thought talking with other Catholics could help. I am convinced of the pope’s holiness but I am faced with the following problem.

I work in a Catholic institution in the developing world and was appalled by what I can only refer to as gloating from openly liberal colleagues on Friday regarding the pope’s interview. I know the pope is theologically sound and so do they but something doesn’t add up. Given the recent track record of the press and the Holy Father’s experience and intelligence he must of known that his words regarding abortion would be taken out of context. Moreoever, what exactly is that context? Who are the obsessives? Am I, as a pro-life campaigner, an obsessive? If it was all that Catholics ever talked about I could see this but in my experience, talking to parishoners, it’s the exact opposite. I haven’t heard the word “abortion” in a sermon for (I think) over two years and I move around a lot. If it’s directed at pro-life organisations, which ones? And if any given Catholic feels called to this ministry who is the Holy Father to judge? I don’t mean that disrespectfully, in all seriousness, if through a reading of the church’s teachings and scripture a Catholic feels called to action who is to say the holy spirit is not moving them? But I’m sure the pope would agree with that.

This leads my colleagues to claim (disturbingly gleefully) that it must be directed at outspoken bishops and cardinals like Cardinal Timothy Dolan. But if so, what in particular should bishops, like Cardinal Dolan, have not done or have left unsaid? Specifics would be good. The pope’s comments on abortion have been published on the front page of practically every newspaper in world and the pope must have known that they would be discussed. What do they mean?

Thank you for that! I am just as genuinely curious and frustrated as you are.

If Pope Francis wanted to direct these sayings to a group of people, why didn’t he so? Personally speaking, the pro life movement, in fact ,brought me closer to my church.

In my entire church going life, I have only heard ONE priest talk about abortion, gay marriage, and contraception in a homily.
In my opinion, the media is the one who is truly obsessed with our Church’s teaching on abortion, gay marriage and contraception.

I feel slightly discouraged, as a university student and a daughter, my family had always said that I was overtly involved with the pro life movement to a point that I was “obsessed”