Pope celebrates Mass with Egyptian Patriarch

[dzheremi]

And our days of proselytizing are over … at least I hope so. Of course, we hold the door open for any Coptic Orthodox who want, of their own accord, to become Catholic (hint hint ).

Thank you for the invite, but I’m spoken for. :tiphat:

 

[jimmy]

Well, before the schism what were we called?

Christian.

 

[m134e5]

Why is it misleading? Concelebration reported by a Catholic news service implies, to me, all involved are Catholic bishops. From a Catholic perspective, His Beatitude is the Egyptian Patriarch. If the headline said “Pope celebrates mass with Canadian primate” I would assume it would mean the Catholic Archbishop of Quebec, not an Anglican or Orthodox bishop.

It can be easy to associate the term “patriarch” primarily with Eastern Orthodoxy, because the most well-known Christian leaders who use that title are Eastern Orthodox.

 

[dzheremi]

The Coptic Orthodox Church is not Eastern Orthodox, so that is immaterial. The Coptic Orthodox Pope is also known as “Pope and Patriarch” of the Church, so we’ve got that covered.

I don’t really see what could be misleading about the headline, either. I would naturally assume it meant that the Roman Pope and the Egyptian Catholic leader (is that less misleading than ‘Patriarch’?) held a Mass together. Surely if it were participated in by either the Coptic Pope or the Greek Patriarch of Egypt, it would say that, and that would be much bigger news than just some thread on a Roman Catholic message board, because you’d have Coptic Orthodox and Greek Orthodox people running around, going crazy, cutting each other’s heads off and all kinds of insane giant flying monsters and talking dogs and whatnot…in other words, it’d have to be the real apocalypse. Though who knows…with the news that it’s snowing in Cairo for the first time in 112 years, we might not be too far away from that as it is!

 

[ronyodish]

Fellow Christians,

Full and perfect unity and communion between the Catholic Communion and the Oriental Orthodox Communion is no longer aimed at having one Communion proselytized and converted over to the other. On the contrary, the two Communions must come together in true charity. The Common Declaration between Pope Paul VI and Pope Shenouda III of Alexandria explains this further:

=====================================
With sincerity and urgency we recall that true charity, rooted in total fidelity to the one Lord Jesus Christ and in mutual respect for each oness traditions, is an essential element of this search for perfect communion.

In the name of this charity, we reject all forms of proselytism, in the sense of acts by which persons seek to disturb each other’s communities by recruiting new members from each other through methods, or because of attitudes of mind, which are opposed to the exigencies of Christian love or to what should characterize the relationships between Churches. Let it cease, where it may exist. Catholics and Orthodox should strive to deepen charity and cultivate mutual consultation, reflection and cooperation in the social and intellectual fields and should humble themselves before God, supplicating Him who, as He has begun this work in us, will bring it to fruition.​

The fidelity to Christ and the mutual respect for each one’s traditions is paramount and essential in this endeavor of seeking full communion between the two Communions. This is how the hierarchy of the two Communions are now approaching the Ecumenical dialogues.

God bless,

Rony

 

[josie_L]

Christian.

What about the other Christians, Jimmy?

 

[josie_L]

(emphasis added)

Complete nonsequitor.

You could, of course, ask whether **Lutherans **regard themselves as being in schism with the Catholic Church.

You mean you don’t know the answer, alright then!

 

[josie_L]

I’ll tell you what they sound like, but only off the board, because saying so on the board would probably get me banned…

Seriously, Catholic people…seriously…enough. Stop. We have enough problems with some of our hierarchy who make statements way out of left field regarding how we should or do think about you (H.E. Who-Shall-Not-Be-Named-But-Always-Seems-To-Put-His-Foot-In-His-Mouth-Very-Publically was very quickly reminded by his brothers that this is not the way we think, after stupidly saying, among other things, that Roman Catholics and Protestants cannot go to heaven :doh2. We don’t need you confirming the worst suspicions that some people in our Church have about you. (NB: Except for some of the leaders who have had dialogues with the RCC and the newest generations of the diaspora who are often educated in RC schools, most Copts know nothing about the RCC; when I first attended liturgy, I spent a good portion of the Agape meal afterwards explaining to the very well-intentioned but obviously misinformed laity that RCs do not in fact worship St. Mary.)

Put plainly and hopefully appreciated as a series of declarative statements of fact (i.e., I am not in the arguing business when it comes to m own faith, so save it for someone else; the question was asked what Coptic Orthodox people feel, not what Roman Catholics think they can salvage or smooth over, so please consider that in any response should there be one), no Coptic person who is committed to and knowledgeable about his Orthodox faith and Church will ever become any type of Catholic anything, unless Rome changes its ways and becomes Orthodox as we recognize it. And, yes, I am saying that with full knowledge that we have people here who like to present themselves as being just that while also being in union with Rome. I’m telling you right now it doesn’t exist according to the Coptic Orthodox Church, which is most definitely the arbiter of what it means to be Coptic and Orthodox (who else would be?). No one is Orthodox in Union with Rome, and certainly no one is Coptic Orthodox in Union with Rome, and Coptic Catholics are recognized as a wound to the Church, not a bridge to anywhere that we want to go.

We love you guys - we really,* really* do (hopefully HH’s very public embrace and brotherliness toward Pope Francis is a good indication of where the heart of our Church is in desiring unity and love between Orthodox and Catholic Christians), but we will not become like you, even in an “Eastern” context (on a mass level, you have all the Coptic Catholics you’re ever going to have; individuals may make their own choices, of course, but the days of masses of Orthodox people converting to Catholicism are probably over). There is a reason why the first errant Bishop of the Copts to embrace union with Rome, Anba Athanasius of Jerusalem, later thought better of his decision and returned to Orthodoxy. We have no union of faith with you, and hence sacramental union is not a reality. As a friend from Church once put it over lunch when trying to understand exactly how we differ: “They’re Christians too, but they’re modern. Their church is a modern church. We are not modern. Our church is not a modern church.”

I don’t understand how you came to write all this from the few replies that were posted on this thread, i.e., issuing that “Catholics” should stop? Did I miss something?

 

[dzheremi]

Because Peter J asked how Coptic Orthodox readers feel reading the kinds of arguments that were put forth in this thread, Josie L. I’m the only Coptic Orthodox person here, so where else is he going to get that answer? As to Catholics stopping what they’re doing, absolutely the Catholics in this thread who are writing the sorts of things that Peter J was referring to should stop doing that if they care at all about how they are perceived by the people they’re talking about, i.e., me and 8-12 million other adherents of the Coptic Orthodox Church. It’s incredibly counterproductive to approach us that way, for the sorts of reasons I wrote in my post.

 

[josie_L]

There was only one Catholic, and if I’m not mistaken his intent was not to suggest you should do away with your liturgies/traditions and such if a communion should take place, i.e., I think you’re reading into it more than there actually is. Maybe you can ask the poster what he meant?

 

[dzheremi]

No. You can ask him if you are interested, but I am not. There comes a point in your life when you no longer entertain other people’s wrong notions of what should happen to you based on what they think is right or should happen. I became Orthodox because I find it to be true. Other things which are not Orthodox are not true. These are facts. There is no discussion to be had. You’ll note how I spend zero time trying to argue Catholics here into becoming Orthodox. I am only here to stand up and say with regard to my own Church that here is where the limits are.

 

[jimmy]

What about the other Christians, Jimmy?

Hahaha, they were called everything under the sun, and most of it not very nice. Both orthodox and catholic were used for true Christians. It is only in recent centuries that the words catholic and orthodox have been associated with particular churches. Until then they were modifiers for the Church, not proper nouns.

 

[Peter_J]

As to Catholics stopping what they’re doing, absolutely the Catholics in this thread who are writing the sorts of things that Peter J was referring to should stop doing that if they care at all about how they are perceived by the people they’re talking about, i.e., me and 8-12 million other adherents of the Coptic Orthodox Church. It’s incredibly counterproductive to approach us that way, for the sorts of reasons I wrote in my post.

Well, if not stop outright, I at least think those posters should rethink their comments a bit. As I said earlier:

I’ve never been Orthodox, but I can’t help wondering how all these plans for the-Coptic-Orthodox-Church-coming-into-communion-with-Rome sound to Orthodox readers. (I imagine that if I heard e.g. Lutherans talking about “If the Roman Catholic Church becomes Lutheran, what will the Pope’s role be?” it would seem a tiny bit arrogant to me.)

:ehh:

(emphasis added)

Now, I don’t know whether my comments and/or yours had anything to do with this, but about 85% of the posters in question have fallen silent. Maybe that should be taken as a sign that we Catholics are more reasonable than we are sometimes given credit for.

 

[josie_L]

Hahaha, they were called everything under the sun, and most of it not very nice. Both orthodox and catholic were used for true Christians. It is only in recent centuries that the words catholic and orthodox have been associated with particular churches. Until then they were modifiers for the Church, not proper nouns.

Yes, I recollect reading somewhere that the Church was called Catholic, by St. Ignatius and St. Augustine (and a few others), but that the followers were called either Catholic Christians and/or Orthodox, i.e., we are “orthodox”, so I get what you mean. Thank you, Jimmy.

 

[phil19034]

Why would they decidedly choose the name “Coptic Catholic” as opposed to “Coptic Orthodox”, since the “Coptic Orthodox” outnumber the “Coptic Catholics” 1000:1?

It wouldn’t matter what they called themselves, that want what I meant. I meant that if all the Coptic Orthodox came into union with Rome, most likely the Orthodox Pope of the Coptics would be the head Patarich of the Coptics. Not the Catholic one. Unless the Coptic Catholics and Coptic Orthodox didnt want to reunite.

If they come in full Communion with Rome, doesn’t matter what they call themselves.

God Bless!

 

[josie_L]

Christian.

Jimmy, I found this excerpt from Emperor Theodosius:

Theodosius I, Emperor from 379 to 395, declared “Catholic” Christianity the official religion of the Roman Empire, declaring in the Edict of Thessalonica of 27 February 380:

It is our desire that all the various nations which are subject to our clemency and moderation, should continue the profession of that religion which was delivered to the Romans by the divine Apostle Peter, as it has been preserved by faithful tradition and which is now professed by the Pontiff Damasus and by Peter, Bishop of Alexandria, a man of apostolic holiness. According to the apostolic teaching and the doctrine of the Gospel, let us believe in the one Deity of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, in equal majesty and in a holy Trinity. We authorize the followers of this law to assume the title Catholic Christians; but as for the others, since in our judgment they are foolish madmen, we decree that they shall be branded with the ignominious name of heretics, and shall not presume to give their conventicles the name of churches. They will suffer in the first place the chastisement of the divine condemnation, and in the second the punishment which our authority, in accordance with the will of heaven, will decide to inflict.[18] Theodosian Code XVI.i.2

 

[livingwordunity]

No. You can ask him if you are interested, but I am not. There comes a point in your life when you no longer entertain other people’s wrong notions of what should happen to you based on what they think is right or should happen. I became Orthodox because I find it to be true. Other things which are not Orthodox are not true. These are facts. There is no discussion to be had. You’ll note how I spend zero time trying to argue Catholics here into becoming Orthodox. I am only here to stand up and say with regard to my own Church that here is where the limits are.

On the bright side, at least you chose the next best thing to becoming a Catholic.

 

[Denho]

On the bright side, at least you chose the next best thing to becoming a Catholic.

I wouldn’t expect most Orthodox would consider their choice of Ecclesial Communion to be the “next best thing.” When Catholics publicly call the Orthodox Churches “second best” or deficient it just builds up those barriers to communion that still persist.

 

[Peter_J]

On the bright side, at least you chose the next best thing to becoming a Catholic.

What do you deem to be third-best? Eastern Orthodox?

 

[josie_L]

I wouldn’t expect most Orthodox would consider their choice of Ecclesial Communion to be the “next best thing.” When Catholics publicly call the Orthodox Churches “second best” or deficient it just builds up those barriers to communion that still persist.

Well, we’re not the only ones who need to bring those barriers down:

Originally Posted by dzheremi

No. You can ask him if you are interested, but I am not. There comes a point in your life when you no longer entertain other people’s wrong notions of what should happen to you based on what they think is right or should happen.** I became Orthodox because I find it to be true. Other things which are not Orthodox are not true. These are facts. There is no discussion to be had.** You’ll note how I spend zero time trying to argue Catholics here into becoming Orthodox. I am only here to stand up and say with regard to my own Church that here is where the limits are.