Pope claims condoms could make African Aids crisis worse

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Fran65 said:
I love it - the Church not counselling to live dangerously!

Try living with and being married to a man who beats you. I’m not talking about a slap (bad enough!) I’m talking about full on throttling, kicking me in the back and stomach days after an appendectomy; kicking, punching me when I was pregnant. Trying to push me down the stairs; wrapping a telephone cord around my throat and trying to choke me. Whipping me with his belt…Want to guess what the Church said when I asked for help?

I had a Cardinal (our parish priest at the time) tell me to stay with my violent, emotionally abusive and controlling husband. It was ‘for the best’ apparently. After he hit my son and put me in hospital, I used my own judgement. I’m now happily divorced and happily remarried - against the rules…but I trust in the grace of God and His wisdom.

We all live dangerously when we stop thinking for ourselves.
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A horrible story Fran. God only knows what hell people go through.
 
Thank you for your thoughtful reply Michael. It is posts like yours that help. You have correctly identifed a polarisation in my thinking that I need to work though. I have a strong impression from other threads on this site that to be a devout, faithful Catholic means not thinking issues through and reaching one’s own conclusions. I have on occasion said myself that if that’s what the Church teaches and I don’t understand it then I should simply accept it unquestioningly.

However, what does one do if one’s own reasoning is not in accordance with the Church?

Miguel, Thank you for your recognition. It is a real, lived experience of mine that millions of women around the world are still experiencing now.
 
o_mlly said:
Because I am not a moral theologian. Church theologians have been praying and wrestling with God’s will on this issue for nearly three years without, as far as I know, a Magisterial proclamation. In the absence of a teaching, one must do their own soul searching, praying, seeking informed counseling and then decide on their own.

Vatican draft document would approve condoms for married couples with AIDS
Traditional ban on birth control still stands
By JOHN L. ALLEN JR
April 25, 2006

"… In an October 2004 interview with NCR, Lozano Barragàn [Cardinal Javier Lozano Barragàn, president of the Pontifical Council for Health Pastoral Care] himself took the same view [in favor of condoms where one partner in a marriage is HIV-positive].

"‘If an infected husband wants to have sex with his wife who isn’t infected, then she must defend herself by whatever means necessary,’ he said then. This position, he said, is consistent with the tenets of traditional Catholic moral theology, which teaches that acts of self-defense can extend to killing in order to not be killed.

“‘If a wife can defend herself from having sex by whatever means necessary, why not with a condom?’ he said.”
nationalcatholicreporter.org/update/bn042506.htm

Peace,
O’Malley
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In that case, why not just shoot him? (See, I think either alternative would be ridiclous!! I certainly hope everyone saw that, I am NOT advocating murder here anymore than I would be suggesting using condoms.)

Try reading this instead, From the National Catholic REGISTER instead of the National Catholic Reporter:
Allen suggests the news media aren’t to blame for this bizarre discrepancy between how we in the West are perceiving the Pope’s trip negatively, courtesy of the media fixation on the condom remarks, and how it is actually being received as a triumph by the Africans who are rejoicing over the Holy Father’s presence in their midst.

Allen is a brilliant Vatican reporter, but he’s flat wrong about this. It’s specifically the media’s fault that Benedict’s matter-of-fact restatement of Church teachings about condoms was blown up by reporters and editors into a manufactured public-relations “crisis.”

Thankfully, the Western media’s capacity to confuse the good African Catholics who love their Pope is limited.
source for above comments: ncregister.com/daily/benedicts_african_triumph/

,and since you posted what Allen himself said about this in the National Catholic Reporter, perhaps he might be one of the one’s causing this confusion himself.
 
Fran65 said:
Cherie,

I’m always impressed by the ability to mind read and fortune tell.

Nowhere in my post or elsewhere have I said that I am ‘against the Church’.

What I said was that it is dangerous to not use one’s own judgement. Perhaps I need to clarify this for you.

Using one’s own judgement does not mean using it all the time or in all circumstances. It means listening to what has been said and then using one’s God’s given intellect, education and faith to discern whether that is wise advice or not.

I appreciate the advice to have ‘sought another opinion’. Is that what the Church teaches? If you don’t like what one priest tells you, then find another who’ll tell you what you do. That’s an interesting piece of advice. Thank you. I think you made my point for me.

Do not be misled by my stated (very recently) religion of ‘unknown’. I am rethinking my faith and religion. It is what any intelligent person does periodically. Jesus himself spent time in the wilderness and in prayer asking God what was right.

So you believe that Jesus was asking God if it was right for Him to be Jewish?

Have a look at some of my other posts before you leap in with your ‘impressive’ mind reading and judgements.

BTW, because I do care about truth and misrepresentation, I have remembered this morning that the priest was a monsignor, not a cardinal. Apologies - I was posting late at night and after a long day at work. I did not intend to misrepresent the case.

.
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If I misunderstood your post, I am sorry. It sounded as if you blamed the Church for being told to stay with your abusive husband. It sounded as though you were against the Church because the priest was wrong about something very important. It sounded as though you were putting down the value of the Church in comparison to those who helped you.
Once more, if I took wrong what you seemed to be saying, forgive me.
 
MichaelTDoyle said:
I think your posts are authentically Catholic. It is just that you tend to juxtapose “thinking for yourself” against being a faithful Catholic. I would submit that anyone posting here is de facto “thinking about the issues” There is a passion here to defend Church teachings because as Catholics we recognize that the authentic Church teachings carry the weight of the promise of Christ, just as Confession carries the weight of another promise of Christ to his priesthood.

Catholicism recognizes the primacy of conscience. That conscience should be informed by prayer, Church teachings, charitable acts and humility, imho. As a Catholic, confession forces us to think and think very hard. Confession is, I dare say, the thinking man’s sacrament. You physically get on your knees after having examined your conscience and then listen to a human’s advice, albeit hopefully a faithful well trained human, and you through the promise of Christ get absolution and graces from heaven. Wonderful, but it doesn’t come without thought and effort on our part. We have the thinking man’s religion.

Given the primacy of conscience comes the responsibility of forming that conscience. Is a political figure who claims to be a Catholic, advised and taught by the Bishop that abortion is an intrinsic evil and cannot be supported yet still says he cannot “make that choice” --to murder babies in the womb-- for others culpable?

The Church has teaching authority We are called to inform our conscience in light of that authority. So if the politician’s conscience is “clear”, ie their conscience is so deleteriously malformed that they can present themselves for Communion, then their course of action after being instructed by the Bishop is to do everything, everything in their power to reform their conscience, because the ontological reality is that they have been excommunicated and if they die and finally cling to their malformed conscience in defiance of Christ, they will be separated from Christ.

A thinking man’s religion? Our very souls depend on thinking, praying and humility. Christ was a real man and divine and that promise to Peter was authentic, then the Church’s authority is the most real authority in the world.

I rambled a bit, but I wanted to talk because you struck a real positive Catholic note, but it felt muddied in my reading of it. Jesus have mercy on us.

Now the Church is really holding the line against the world. Post sexual revolution, she is the only voice out in the entire world of both reason and moral restraint rooted in human dignity (that I can see) This forum is a place to exercise our beliefs as laity, because out there it is an evil reception waiting for us if we try to spread the Truth.
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You didn’t ramble. What you posted was absolutely beautiful. I am blessed to have had the priviledge of reading it. I cannot wait to get to Confession, even more so now that I have been reminded of what awaits me there. I love to hear the Truth.
Thank you for listening to the Holy Spirit’s promptings.
 
Fran, I do not mean to even remotely imply that you have not been through something totally horrible. And I am very glad for you that you did not accept the words of one who lead you wrong. I am very glad that you kept looking for help, and that you found some. No, I have never been in your shoes, thank God. But only by the grace of God I would have been. And that is the road I was going down until the decision was taken out of my hands.
I did not mean to make little of your experiences. There is nothing within me that thinks little of your experiences. I hope this helps.
 
Cherie,

In my original post what I was saying was that ‘the Church’ as represented by the man who was our parish priest at the time advocated living dangerously in my case and on that issue.

I doubt that you will or can dispute that a Parish Priest does represent ‘the Church’ to those living in his parish? Isn’t that part of his role? Therefore, rightly or wrongly, the actions of a priest do bring the Church into disrepute. Why else would the Church attempt to conceal scandalous and abusive behaviour in priests when it occurs? There are plenty of threads on those issues.

I have personally resolved those issues in my own mind. There is a big difference between God, His Son and the human beings who attempt to follow Him. No human being is perfect. We can only trust in God.

In addition, I was replying to Miguel regarding the ‘story’. I had thought that it was clear when I wrote it, but obviously I hadn’t made it clear enough.
 
Thank you for the kind responses.
Fran65 said:
However, what does one do if one’s own reasoning is not in accordance with the Church?
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I can only tell you what I would do. I’ve been fortunate in this regard, but I have thought of the possibility.

Humility is truth, so prayers for humility would be important, but that can be tough, because I think if you pray for humility you may be asking for humiliations in life, which exercise your humility “muscle” and breaks down bad pride. But, wow, humiliating experiences are no fun at all. I actually am sort of reluctant to pray the Litany of Humility, but it is an awesome prayer.
( ewtn.com/Devotionals/prayers/humility.htm )

I would try to find authentic Catholic sources and that can be tough. The Catechism, Church fathers and of course real people. (You can get the added benefit of asking the people to pray for you) It’s not just if the view is correct, but is the priority of the view in its proper place? (For example Love of God comes before love of our fellow Man) It can get really tricky.

Spend time in adoration of Christ apart from the specific issue. Go to Him for rest. Jesus, I trust in You. I have a tougher time with this, cause I have a lot of worldly attachments.

Go to Mary. She is your spiritual mother and wants to bring you to her Son. (Remember: her Son is also the Truth) He has the answer for us; we have to put ourselves in a position to receive it. I ask her to intercede for me and purify my prayers and please present them to her Son for me. I think that’s good.

Try some fasting according to your health and offer it up with prayer on the issue.

Be patient. Obedience is what we’re called to and that proves our trust in Christ.

And of course, take advantage of the Sacraments frequently.

You must follow your conscience, but if you find yourself in opposition to the Church’s defined teachings on salvation, faith or morals, I’d go through those things and if possible–if time does not neccesitate an action on this disagreement–keep doing a wash, rinse and repeat.

That stuff I listed takes a lot of effort and in the interest of honesty, I don’t follow through on all those things myself.

Jesus, I trust in You.
 
allhers said:
… Thankfully, the Western media’s capacity to confuse the good African Catholics who love their Pope is limited.

,and since you posted what Allen himself said about this in the National Catholic Reporter, perhaps he might be one of the one’s causing this confusion himself.
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Your comment is in error. You posted, through Tom McFeely, Allen’s comments on the media coverage of the papal Cameroon visit. You did note, I trust, that the Allen article I posted is from April 2006.

If Allen got his facts wrong in the April 2006 article, I’m all ears.

Peace,
O’Malley
 
Michael, I wnated ot say thank you for your reply and your honesty. You make some very good and useful suggestions.

God Bless
 
o_mlly said:
Your comment is in error. You posted, through Tom McFeely, Allen’s comments on the media coverage of the papal Cameroon visit. You did note, I trust, that the Allen article I posted is from April 2006.

If Allen got his facts wrong in the April 2006 article, I’m all ears.

Peace,
O’Malley
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I really don’t care what year he said it, what my point is, is that the current article that I posted claims that he is currently wrong, and to me that means he could also have been wrong in the past, and could be part of the problem, in my opinion.

Afterall, if someone is saying things with some authority that could be implied to mean that what they are saying is in fact, FACT about Church teaching, but it isn’t always, for example, …(just because an individual in the Church says something, doesn’t make it Church teaching.)

It just looked to me like you were saying that because someone posted something on a site a few years ago that you were using it now to defend what you believed was fact. But it isn’t. It was just what someone said, which really means nothing official.

If I am wrong in why you used it here now, then I’m sorry for misunderstanding you.
 
PRmerger said:
Yet the Pill’s use is licit for non-contraceptive intentions. Why, then, could not condoms be used for non-contraceptive intentions as well?

"15. On the other hand, the Church does not consider at all illicit the use of those therapeutic means necessary to cure bodily diseases, even if a foreseeable impediment to procreation should result there from—provided such impediment is not directly intended for any motive whatsoever. (19) Humanae Vitae

(BTW, the Pill does not “cure bodily diseases” any more than a condom would cure HIV. Yet the Pill is allowed.)
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Then doesn’t that tell you that perhaps, since we now have other means besides the pill that perhaps neither would be alright to use? Neither one would be effective means so why use either?
 
stinkcat_14 said:
Here is a college professor’s take on the issue:

courant.com/news/opinion/commentary/hc-michels-pope-condoms.artmar22,0,3108161.story

What really got to me is that he is at a Catholic college. He seems lacking in both faith and reason, because it is the worst reasoned article that I have read in a long time.
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I agree, it sounds like his opinion and not fact at all. Far too many people, including some of those in the Church just don’t get it and that Professor seems to be another one of them.
 
Fran65 said:
Thank you for your thoughtful reply Michael. It is posts like yours that help. You have correctly identifed a polarisation in my thinking that I need to work though. I have a strong impression from other threads on this site that to be a devout, faithful Catholic means not thinking issues through and reaching one’s own conclusions…
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Fran, I appreciate what you said. And I’m a big believer in people using their noggins.
Fran65 said:
I have on occasion said myself that if that’s what the Church teaches and I don’t understand it then I should simply accept it unquestioningly…
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For myself, I would change the word “unquestioningly” to questioningly. I’m not a psychologist Fran. But no doubt the type of abuse you’ve experienced has some impact on this as well…how you trust men, priests, God. Personally, I trust God. I trust Jesus Christ. I trust the Church Jesus Christ gave us. I trust the Catechism of the Catholic Church…a product of the Church Jesus gave us. Why? Because it makes sense. I haven’t read anything in there that causes me to suspend my reason. I don’t claim that everyone who reads it will have my reaction to it. I don’t trust the typical uninformed Catholic. (There are informed Catholics out there.) I don’t trust the priest who couldn’t care less if I go to heaven or hell. (There are priests who do care.) And I don’t trust politicians.
Fran65 said:
However, what does one do if one’s own reasoning is not in accordance with the Church?
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All I can say is pray and keep trying. Jesus wants you in heaven with him some day and your family…where every tear will be wiped away. That’s why he endured the abuse he endured. And that’s why he gave us the Church.
 
allhers said:
Then doesn’t that tell you that perhaps, since we now have other means besides the pill that perhaps neither would be alright to use? Neither one would be effective means so why use either?
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I didn’t say that the Pill wasn’t effective. I said it wasn’t curative. Many, many medical therapies are not curative.

Are you saying that the Church should NOT allow medical use of the Pill?
 
PRmerger said:
I didn’t say that the Pill wasn’t effective. I said it wasn’t curative. Many, many medical therapies are not curative.

Are you saying that the Church should NOT allow medical use of the Pill?
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Yes, in my opinion, which always would defer to the Church, I guess I am, (if indeed the Church ever actally said that.)…after reading this especially. I also read things on the www.priestsforlife.org site and www.all.org site and www.hli.org site and www.ewtn.com www.thepillkills.org and many other trusted Catholic sites that speak the truth…

… There are several alternatives to the use of the birth control pill:
-Non-Steroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drugs (or NSAIDS) of which Ibuprofen is the most commonly known. Ibuprofen acts to actually stop the production of those pain-causing compounds we saw earlier: prostaglandins. A typical prescription dose is 600-800 mg. three times daily. Taken during menstruation this will be beneficial for most women. It is as simple as taking 3-4 Advil three times daily during menstruation.
-Natural progesterone given cooperatively with a woman’s cycle may actually reduce the amount of pain and bleeding a woman has in any cycle by supporting her body with natural progesterone, just like her body produces in the second half of her monthly cycle. This hormone is available everywhere by prescription in the form of a product called Prometrium. This natural hormone has NONE of the risks of birth control pills and actually makes most women feel better as opposed to most women getting ill with their first few cycles of birth control pills. For women charting their cycles with NFP (Natural Family Planning) this is given Peak + 3 through Peak + 12 at 200 mg. taken by mouth at night before retiring. This will help to oppose the effects of estrogen that may be building up the lining of a woman’s uterus excessively, thereby reducing the cramping at menstruation. Natural progesterone is also a smooth muscle relaxant having direct effects on the smooth muscles of the uterus reducing their contractions and thereby decreasing the pain. Again, there are NO KNOWN risks or complications with the use of natural progesterone. The product Prometrium is in a Peanut oil base and so women allergic to peanuts cannot use Prometrium and may need a pharmacist to compound a progesterone capsule for them without peanut oil elements… read more here: all.org/article.php?id=10162

** Plus, I really don’t think that what some people think or say about Humane Vitae is really what was said, maybe they really didn’t read it and just say what they have heard others say about it, true or not. I think sometimes, even some theologians, just give bad advice that some choose to listen to instead of finding out all the facts for themselves. I also don’t think that what any of our past and current Pope’s have said or what they are saying was always really listened to much. But I do believe that is changing, and I really think they ought to be always listened to. It isn’t like they just come off with this off the tops of their heads, they really do have access to the best scientific and medical advice, etc… (Not to mention the Holy Spirit). **

This was said in 2006 and is still effective today…
The very best article on Catholic teaching regarding the use of the birth control pill for medical reasons is actually written by a Catholic physician: Paul Hayes, M.D. His article is at all.org/article.php?id=10162

**(Which was the article I referenced above) **

You might also find the following article to be of use. It is a set of questions and answers prepared by Bishop Bruskewitz’s staff in the Diocese of Lincoln, Nebraska: dioceseoflincoln.org/purple/birth/

We have to remember that because the pill can abort a child, there is really no argument in defense of using the pill when so many alternative therapies are available…
source:
ewtn.com/vexperts/showresult.asp?RecNum=489115&Forums=0&Experts=0&Days=2008&Author=&Keyword=pill+for+medical+reasons&pgnu=1&groupnum=0&record_bookmark=5&ORDER_BY_TXT=ORDER+BY+ReplyDate+DESC&start_at=

This was also said back in 2002 by Judie Brown, (anyone listening now, 7 years later?)
The Catholic community already does support the work of Catholic scientists and researchers who already have come up with alternatives to using the pill for medical reasons. Perhaps you were not aware of the work of the Pope Paul VI Institute: popepaulvi.com

Now, if you really read all of those, I will comment to your comments, but if you just want to fire back a response, as some do, then I really don’t think I will be wasting my time looking all this stuff up just to have people ignore it and say something sarcastic. (Not saying you are like that, just saying IF you are, I’m not playing.)

(what I said was bolded)
 
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