Pope condones contraceptives for zika outbreak?

[white_sheep]

So you say. The Pope just said differently. I understand that is your belief, but I think the Pope is also fairly familiar with Catholic doctrine.

I am pretty sure we are in complete agreement here.

Which means we have clarity in our disagreement about the matter at hand. That’s good enough for me.

Oh, just one thing. Nothing I posted were my thoughts. That’s just official Catholic teaching.

 

[Lormar]

What about contraceptives which are abortifacients?

I get it. Abortion (and yes, I mean the induced elective kind, not the spontaneous ones often termed ‘miscarriage’ OR a procedure such as in an ectopic pregnancy which results secondarily in the death of the child but was not undertaken specifically with intent to cause death alone) is always a crime, a mortal sin.

And I’ve heard the ‘nuns in the Congo’ story, the ‘taking for medical reasons’, the ‘but they’re not Catholics so it’s OK’ reasons, the ‘there’s no difference between abstaining from sex to plan family and taking contraception because either way you’re making sure there is no chance for a child instead of being ‘bunnies’ and open to sex 24/7’, ad nauseam.

I have heard all the spins, I’ve seen all the data presented pro and con, heard all the sob stories on one side or the other. .

And all I can say based on observation of lo these nearly 60 years is that, without fail, when it has come to an ‘exception clause’ regarding a teaching of faith and morals, a ‘softening’, a concession made in ‘good faith’ in order to ‘lessen the burden’ on poor, POOR widdle people who just are so battered by societal demands and ‘personal situations’ and ‘unique circumstances’ that they’re just going to ‘break the law anyway’ and if the big bad MEN who run the RC outfit would just LIGHTEN UP their ‘man made rules’ that Jesus ‘never specifically said in the Bible’ then for this tiny, tiny CONCESSION the people who were given the concession would just become ON FIRE for Christ, rejuvenate the whole Church, etc. etc… . .

EVERY.SINGLE.TIME the concessions or helps or moving a holyday to the nearest Sunday or deemphasis of some ‘hard’ aspect of teaching or ‘deeper understanding of the woman’s subjugation and unique difficulties in modern society’ or ‘man’s guilt in centuries of patristic chauvinism’, or even the indult for Americans so that they do not HAVE to abstain except on Ash Wednesday, Good Friday and the other Fridays of Lent alone, HAVE NOT LED to the ‘wonderful, joyous, NECESSARY results’ we were told would occur.

Instead they have led to a poorly catechized, morally clueless, whiny, spoiled, ‘entitlement kings and queens’ practicing Protestant “average U.S. Catholic” who interprets everything from Canon Law to scripture to liturgy to the CCC by personal preference, and who considers that any difficulty with obedience to ANY Church teaching will disappear if ONLY they whine loudly enough or complain enough, and if they don’t get the bishops to cave (as too often they do), they simply do as they choose while trumpeting what GREAT CATHOLICS they are. A nation of little Popes and Popettes.

IMO.

 

[Lormar]

Interesting thread.

The Pope Francis defenders (defenders of these particular remarks of his) seem to focus on the idea that the media misinterpreted or mistranslated what he said. But I doubt the substance of his answer has been or could be distorted to that extent.

He affirmed that contraception in proximity of the Zika virus is OK given that Pope Paul VI allowed Congo nuns to take oral contraceptives (and not practise NFP) since they were threatened by rape. The listener will naturally conclude that oral contraceptives are OK for women who engage ***willingly ***in marital relations but don’t want to conceive. The Pope did not clarify that these women may use NFP only to prevent contraception hence the listener is not obliged to draw that conclusion.

This, quite clearly and unambiguously, goes flat against the moral teaching of the Church.

It is a private opinion of the Pope, not official teaching, and hence can be respectfully rejected, as the private opinions of a few previous Popes, notably John XXII, were also respectfully rejected. We are faced with a situation where, as Catholics, we are obliged to examine everything Pope Francis says and determine whether it accords with Catholic teaching or not, whilst at the same time maintaining our respect and affection for him as Vicar of Christ. A very difficult balancing act, but one we have no choice but to do.

It is true it is his private opinion, but popes aren’t elected to lead the Church with their private opinions. They are to hand down what the Church has always taught.

All this does is sow more confusion in a Church already filled with confused Catholics.

 

[Lormar]

I agree the poster was over the line, but let’s not equally step over the line and insist every pope is hand picked by the Holy Spirit. That is not Catholic teaching.

You are correct. It is not. If the person who thinks it is will contact Fr. Vincent Serpa here on CAF, he will tell her it is not.

 

[Listener]

I agree with Hoosier Daddy and TMC. I think that Pope Francis really did say that contraception can be used in certain circumstances. If he didn’t say this, then why on earth would he use the Congo Nuns as an example?

Some of you probably weren’t even alive yet when we all heard the story about the African nuns going on birth control pills because they were in danger of rape. I remember hearing this story on the news myself, sometime back in the 1960’s.

So why would Pope Francis use that situation as an example? My guess is this. Pope Francis would probably prefer that women who live where the Zika virus is going around would practice NFP or abstinence. However, because he wasn’t born yesterday, he knows that some women simply don’t have this option. Maybe their husbands won’t put up with abstinence, or maybe they are in danger of rape by their male friends - whatever. I believe he is probably saying that the Zika situation is so serious, that these women could go on the pill or do what they need to do, in self defense, just like the African nuns did.

Pope Francis has great respect for women. He doesn’t believe that they should have to get pregnant against their will.

 

[white_sheep]

I agree with Hoosier Daddy and TMC. I think that Pope Francis really did say that contraception can be used in certain circumstances. If he didn’t say this, then why on earth would he use the Congo Nuns as an example?

Some of you probably weren’t even alive yet when we all heard the story about the African nuns going on birth control pills because they were in danger of rape. I remember hearing this story on the news myself, sometime back in the 1960’s.

So why would Pope Francis use that situation as an example? My guess is this. Pope Francis would probably prefer that women who live where the Zika virus is going around would practice NFP or abstinence. However, because he wasn’t born yesterday, he knows that some women simply don’t have this option. Maybe their husbands won’t put up with abstinence, or maybe they are in danger of rape by their male friends - whatever. I believe he is probably saying that the Zika situation is so serious, that these women could go on the pill or do what they need to do, in self defense, just like the African nuns did.

Pope Francis has great respect for women. He doesn’t believe that they should have to get pregnant against their will.

Wow, what, pregnant against their will?

 

[LongingSoul]

I agree with Hoosier Daddy and TMC. I think that Pope Francis really did say that contraception can be used in certain circumstances. If he didn’t say this, then why on earth would he use the Congo Nuns as an example?

No one seems to be reading his answer in the context of the original question. The journo didn’t ask could contraception be used against Zika virus fears. He asked if contraception being a ‘lesser evil’ on a sliding scale which started with abortion could justify it. That’s a question that has a horribly flawed premise. Pope Francis had to distinguish between abortion which is actually murder and contraception which is more theologically nuanced problem. The Congo nuns situation is no doubt one that theologians refer to in exploring the nature of contraception.

Some of you probably weren’t even alive yet when we all heard the story about the African nuns going on birth control pills because they were in danger of rape. I remember hearing this story on the news myself, sometime back in the 1960’s.

So why would Pope Francis use that situation as an example? My guess is this. Pope Francis would probably prefer that women who live where the Zika virus is going around would practice NFP or abstinence. However, because he wasn’t born yesterday, he knows that some women simply don’t have this option. Maybe their husbands won’t put up with abstinence, or maybe they are in danger of rape by their male friends - whatever. I believe he is probably saying that the Zika situation is so serious, that these women could go on the pill or do what they need to do, in self defense, just like the African nuns did.

He actually didn’t give a direct go ahead in reference to the current Zika virus situation. He just stated that there are some extreme circumstances where contraception has been permitted or at least isn’t out of accord with Catholic teaching. And that was to show how separate the issue of contraception is to abortion… which is just murder and not part of a sliding scale of sexual issues.

 

[LongingSoul]

If they wanted to ask follow ups about the Nuns in the Congo, etc. then fine. (By the way articles from 1961 and 1962 indicate that no nuns were actual raped during that time)

I googled out of interest and this article from 1961 paints a horrifying picture of conditions. The nun interviewed said they suffered indescribable humiliation and treatment so atrocious it couldn’t be talked about. They were forced to dance naked on sharp rocks. I doubt these sweet gents made the women do that and then dress them up again and send them back to the convents. These are the types of men who would have raped women to death without a care. I’ve certainly got a better answer than giving the nuns contraceptives but then I’d be accused of being a feminist radical.

archives.chicagotribune.com/1961/03/14/page/1/article/congo-terror-reign-described-by-nuns

 

[Mark121359]

The fact is that the vast majority of Catholics already disagree with the Church doctrine on birth control. In my view, the majority of clerics disagree with it also. So I don’t think this will get much more than a shrug in the pews.

Now what was it that Aquinas, Anselm, Augustine, Chrysostom, Bellarmine, Liguori, Teresa of Avila, Pope St. Gregory the Great and umpteen other Doctors of the Church were saying?..Oh, that’s right, **how few are the saved! **And St. John Chrysostom, now what was that I read that he said about priests? Oh…well here we go, let’s here it from his own mouth; *“I do not speak rashly, but as I feel and think. I do not think that many priests are saved, but that those who perish are far more numerous.” * But wait, those silly Doctors can’t be correct, the Catholic Church doesn’t even teach about hell anymore…right?..

Peace, Mark

 

[TMC]

Now what was it that Aquinas, Anselm, Augustine, Chrysostom, Bellarmine, Liguori, Teresa of Avila, Pope St. Gregory the Great and umpteen other Doctors of the Church were saying?..Oh, that’s right, how few are the saved! And St. John Chrysostom, now what was that I read that he said about priests? Oh…well here we go, let’s here it from his own mouth; *“I do not speak rashly, but as I feel and think. I do not think that many priests are saved, but that those who perish are far more numerous.” * But wait, those silly Doctors can’t be correct, the Catholic Church doesn’t even teach about hell anymore…right?..

Peace, Mark

So its gonna be just you and Chrysostom? Guess Francis and I will have to find somewhere else to hang.

 

[Mark121359]

So its gonna be just you and Chrysostom?

So you say…

Peace, Mark

 

[Blue_Horizon]

Hello,

Part of what deal? I don’t see what is pastoral about him saying something that ends up being misleading. In this instance, it was “pope says contraception ok” and that headline is all most people will hear about his comments. On the other hand, some Catholics now don’t care what the pope says. I don’t know if that’s a good thing either.

I prefer him making sure, through theological review, that he doesn’t say something silly (as he himself said).

Dan

Family life is messy and full of communication static.
If you want clear, talk to a canon lawyer or moral theologian, but don’t look for “family” there.

I think its high time we had a more Pastoral Pope who can deal with people one on one - even if the comms gets messy he wins hearts…minds will follow.

 

[Micosil]

The fact is that the vast majority of Catholics already disagree with the Church doctrine on birth control. In my view, the majority of clerics disagree with it also. So I don’t think this will get much more than a shrug in the pews.

I won’t comment on the what precisely the Pope said or meant, but addressing this specific thing, I will only quote Archbishop Fulton Sheen:

Right is right if nobody is right, and wrong is wrong if everybody is wrong.

 

[Tablefor9]

Rejoining to say this: I wish the Pope had been explicit and reiterated Church teaching, which is the heart of God in the matter. He wasn’t explicit, but left it open to spin, splinter, and be used as a club with which to beat those with disabilities. At the end of the day, he wouldn’t be the first priest to give incorrect info on this, I had a priest tell me less than 2 months ago that because of my family size and my heart issues, we could explore whether they could be an option for me. He told me I have enough children, and that people in America don’t do that (have big families) any more.

I received absolution, did my penance, and said an extra rosary for the hope of holy priests and a holier church. I think the same needs to happen here–rosaries for all our priests, the Holy Father included, and all our people, particularly those who struggle with some teachings.

 

[dans0622]

Family life is messy and full of communication static.
If you want clear, talk to a canon lawyer or moral theologian, but don’t look for “family” there.

I think its high time we had a more Pastoral Pope who can deal with people one on one - even if the comms gets messy he wins hearts…minds will follow.

So, family life is supposed to be messy or has to be? I don’t think so.

I will hope that your second sentence is not meant to be taken personally.

I wonder how many hearts have been won by any of these plane press conferences.

Dan

 

[TCEL]

Without a clarification, the ramifications are bad, though I don’t think the Pope has malicious intent. HHS Mandate: “See? Even your Pope doesn’t think this is a burden on your religious freedom.” Dissenters: “At last!” Everyone else: “Ok. The Church is ‘with it’ now.” I’m sorry, but how can people fighting at the UN for life and family be helped by this? It feels a little like being thrown under the bus by your captain. The Pope is the Holy Father, and I certainly can’t do his job. I pity the man who has to be Pope. But these comments are increasingly making my own “job” difficult.

 

[Usige]

Family life is messy and full of communication static.
If you want clear, talk to a canon lawyer or moral theologian, but don’t look for “family” there.

I think its high time we had a more Pastoral Pope who can deal with people one on one - even if the comms gets messy he wins hearts…minds will follow.

The Pope’s job isn’t to be a figure head to embrace people one on one and make them feel good about themselves. His job is to lead the Church to salvation, just like all bishops. Personally I think we were blessed with theologians like Pope Saint John Paul II and Benedict XVI to lead the Church for 35 years. Their teachings were always clear and didn’t lead to ambiguities. Be pastoral? fine. But don’t be dropping bombs that are theologically problematic.

One on one communication should be done by the clergy in one’s area, in particular the pastors and Bishop. If you think there need to be more pastoral approach’s then it should be the pastors that you look to, not the Pope.

I’m not so sure if he wins hearts when his off the cuff answers muddy the waters and others are left to explain that what he said is not the full picture. I’ve dealt with many who love the Pope through sound bites, but then dislike the Church when they learn the fullness of what she holds to be true. Given that I don’t agree with winning their hearts will lead to winning their minds. The Church is not a cult of personality.

 

[TCEL]

Without a clarification, the ramifications are bad, though I don’t think the Pope has malicious intent. HHS Mandate: “See? Even your Pope doesn’t think this is a burden on your religious freedom.” Dissenters: “At last!” Everyone else: “Ok. The Church is ‘with it’ now.” I’m sorry, but how can people fighting at the UN for life and family be helped by this? It feels a little like being thrown under the bus by your captain. The Pope is the Holy Father, and I certainly can’t do his job. I pity the man who has to be Pope. But these comments are increasingly making my own “job” difficult.

I just want to reiterate that everything one does as Pope is exponentially magnified; hence why I pity them. Every action is over-analyzed and utilized. Personally, I don’t think these comments should be as big a deal, but in the current climate, they are.

 

[white_sheep]

Being pastoral means leading the people of the Church to heaven.

 

[EmeraldOak]

Yes and I think the pope is wrong, but all this explaining and twisting the popes words or trying to deny what he meant has got to stop. It is demeaning to His Holiness and it is in fact more respectful to disagree with him rather than think he is incompetent, bullied by the media or unaware of how his comments are taken. He is a head of state and a leader of a church who speaks firmly and matter of factly, on a number of issues he is more educated about than people are giving him credit for.

I am getting sick of people taking the liberty of saying "what he really meant was…"

Perhaps he just says and believes things that I or other Catholics do not.
I notice that my parish pays no mind to BXVI on matters of liturgical music and that was an actual document. So, I think I can realize the pope is not invoking infallibility and I can think he is (gasp). Wrong. One can do so with respect and obedience to the church and the office of the papacy.

Yes, well said, thank you! Certain Catholic media outlets are doing what I perceive to be damage control and spin in what appears to be an attempt at keeping everyone calm.

Denial is unhealthy and helps no one. Father Lombardi’s clarifications should be reported and taken at face value. Instead now they would have us believe that both Pope Francis and Father Lombardi have been misunderstood.

I appreciate all the Catholic theologians who have tried to explain it all, but at some point the mental gymnastics have to end.

The National Catholic Register had this in their article:

*“Since this article was first published on Friday, Vatican spokesman Father Federico Lombardi issued a clarification on what the Pope said with regards to the Zika virus and contraception. He told Vatican Radio the Pope spoke of “the possibility of taking recourse to contraception or condoms in cases of emergency or special situations” but was not saying that “this is accepted and this action can be taken without discernment.”

“Indeed he said clearly that it can be considered in cases of special urgency,” Father Lombardi said."
*
Whole article here ncregister.com/daily-news/popes-comments-on-contraception-in-accord-with-magisterium-philosophers-say/