Pope condones contraceptives for zika outbreak?

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The Church has moved, evolved, developed, “clarified”, whatever term you prefer. The Pope did not misspeak. He knows what he says and says what he means. As to how long it will take - sometimes things move very slowly, but at time they move with some speed. This seems to be one of those times.
None of those things have happened, because no teaching of the kind you suggest has been uttered. Just as the Pope’s opinion on the cause of climate change is not teaching, so his on the spot remarks about Zika are not teaching. The Church has not moved till it teaches something at variance with existing teaching. And if and when that happens, the real debate can start.

You may feel you know the mind of the pope, and if so, that’s Impressive.
 
None of those things have happened, because no teaching of the kind you suggest has been uttered. Just as the Pope’s opinion on the cause of climate change is not teaching, so his on the spot remarks about Zika are not teaching. The Church has not moved till it teaches something at variance with existing teaching. And if and when that happens, the real debate can start.

You may feel you know the mind of the pope, and if so, that’s Impressive.
OK, so who gets to decide what is “teaching” and what is not “teaching”? Is it just you? Do you have a lost of other Papal teachings that are not “really” teachings?

You can continue to close your eyes and ears, but I think it is clear that changes are afoot. Certainly a real debate has long since started.
 
Galnextdoor;13720695:
If you are more comfortable with “clarified” I am happy to use that euphemism. The usury doctrine was “clarified” from meaning that interest is always evil and forbidden to meaning that excessive interest is sometimes wrong. The doctrine on contraception appears to be undergoing a similar “clarification.”
Your grasping at straws and using the very false logic that the secular media used when it said that Pope Paul VI secretly approved of birth control and was going to change doctrine in the 70’s.

Practices may change, but doctrine and dogma don’t. The Pope can’t approve birth control pill use anymore than he can ordain women priests.
 
OK, so who gets to decide what is “teaching” and what is not “teaching”? Is it just you? Do you have a lost of other Papal teachings that are not “really” teachings?
. :confused: This is well established by the Church. You appear to assume every utterance by the pope is Church teaching. It is not.
You can continue to close your eyes and ears, but I think it is clear that changes are afoot. Certainly a real debate has long since started.
I close nothing. I’ve opened my mouth and said “I’ve no idea what the Pope is trying to say.” And “the commonly expressed interpretation of what he said stands in stark contradiction to what the Church teaches.” I am confident in both positions. 🤷
 
You are absolutely incorrect on usury. The Church banned all lending of money at interest for over a thousand years, and now allows what it once banned.
This seeks to explain how radically different circumstances then and now change the nature of the act:
catholic.com/magazine/articles/did-the-church-change-its-stance-on-usury

The physical interest was not the wrong, but the injustice at its heart at the time. Where that injustice arises even in today’s radically different environment, usury remains wrong.

Removing a man’s heart 1000 years ago was the intentional killing of an innocent, but is not necessarily that today.
 
OK, so who gets to decide what is “teaching” and what is not “teaching”? Is it just you? Do you have a lost of other Papal teachings that are not “really” teachings?

You can continue to close your eyes and ears, but I think it is clear that changes are afoot. Certainly a real debate has long since started.
People think that abortion and attempts to control conception are something new. Hippocrates born about 460 a.c. included in his oath for doctors a statement that they would not perform abortions. Many types of birth control pills are abortifacients. They allow conception, but do not allow the embryo to take hold in the uterus.

Birth control pills increase the risk of blood clot, stroke, breast cancer, and ovarian cancer.

Condom use has been around since the 1500’s. Other birth avoidance practices that have nothing to do with NFP have been described in literature before the time of Christ.

Through all these centuries the Church has condemned all these practices. It has explained over and over again why these practices are wrong. Just because people are more willing to turn their back on the Church teachings does not mean that the Church is going to change doctrine or dogma.

The Church is not a Democracy. We did not elect the Trinity as our God. We have not voted on which teachings of Jesus we are going to accept.

As for discerning whether something is a Pope’s opinion or an official teaching. You have to look at how the Church has handled the subject through the ages. If it coincides or clarifies and is consistent with the body of the Church’s teachings, then it is an official teaching. If it is something that is in opposition of or different from the Church’s body of teaching through the ages, it is the Pope’s opinion and does not need to be adhered to.

The Church has always taught that we are stewards of the earth and all the living things on it. If a Pope says that we need to take care of the earth, that is a Church teaching. Theoretically, if a Pope says everyone needs to turn in their combustion engine cars and buy electric cars, that is his opinion. You do not have to follow his opinion.

Popes after Popes after Popes have condemned artificial methods of birth control. It is a doctrine of the Church that cannot change.
 
I do not understand why we think we are smarter, more informed, or even holier than the Pope himself! If Pope Francis said it happened and that the Vatican approved, it is so. This reminds me of people trying to explain away what he actually said, until Fr. Federico Lombardi said, “Yep, this is exactly what he said.”

As far as the previous popes affirming the current, official Church teaching- yes. But this is about to undergo a development. Just like the doctrine of Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus, the sinfulness of usury, the concept of religious liberty- all matters of faith and morals. We have to avoid the two-fold temptation of 1) pretending that doctrine does not develop, and 2) revising history.

Can we trust the Holy Spirit to work in this situation through our Pope?
Following is the oath against Modernism (the heresy some on this thread are proposing is perfectly fine to believe). I am not accusing anyone of heresy….only God can judge. But believing that doctrine evolves or that if majority rationalizes -and claims the Pope agrees with them- that contraception can be licit in at least some instances is……a heresy of Modernism. The Holy Spirit already HAS guided the Pope to make a decision regarding this. Please read what a Pope and Saint, Pius X, required of priests and teachers.

*To be sworn to by all clergy, pastors, confessors, preachers, religious superiors, and professors in philosophical-theological seminaries.

I . . . . firmly embrace and accept each and every definition that has been set forth and declared by the unerring teaching authority of the Church, especially those principal truths which are directly opposed to the errors of this day. And first of all, I profess that God, the origin and end of all things, can be known with certainty by the natural light of reason from the created world (see Rom. 1:19), that is, from the visible works of creation, as a cause from its effects, and that, therefore, his existence can also be demonstrated: Secondly, I accept and acknowledge the external proofs of revelation, that is, divine acts and especially miracles and prophecies as the surest signs of the divine origin of the Christian religion and I hold that these same proofs are well adapted to the understanding of all eras and all men, even of this time. Thirdly, I believe with equally firm faith that the Church, the guardian and teacher of the revealed word, was personally instituted by the real and historical Christ when he lived among us, and that the Church was built upon Peter, the prince of the apostolic hierarchy, and his successors for the duration of time. Fourthly, I sincerely hold that the doctrine of faith was handed down to us from the apostles through the orthodox Fathers in exactly the same meaning and always in the same purport. Therefore, I entirely reject the heretical’ misrepresentation that dogmas evolve and change from one meaning to another different from the one which the Church held previously. I also condemn every error according to which, in place of the divine deposit which has been given to the spouse of Christ to be carefully guarded by her, there is put a philosophical figment or product of a human conscience that has gradually been developed by human effort and will continue to develop indefinitely. Fifthly, I hold with certainty and sincerely confess that faith is not a blind sentiment of religion welling up from the depths of the subconscious under the impulse of the heart and the motion of a will trained to morality; but faith is a genuine assent of the intellect to truth received by hearing from an external source. By this assent, because of the authority of the supremely truthful God, we believe to be true that which has been revealed and attested to by a personal God, our creator and lord.

Furthermore, with due reverence, I submit and adhere with my whole heart to the condemnations, declarations, and all the prescripts contained in the encyclical Pascendi and in the decree Lamentabili, especially those concerning what is known as the history of dogmas……

I firmly hold, then, and shall hold to my dying breath the belief of the Fathers in the charism of truth, which certainly is, was, and always will be in the succession of the episcopacy from the apostles. The purpose of this is, then, not that dogma may be tailored according to what seems better and more suited to the culture of each age; rather, that the absolute and immutable truth preached by the apostles from the beginning may never be believed to be different, may never be understood in any other way.

I promise that I shall keep all these articles faithfully, entirely, and sincerely, and guard them inviolate, in no way deviating from them in teaching or in any way in word or in writing. Thus I promise, this I swear, so help me God.* papalencyclicals.net/Pius10/p10moath.htm
 
OK, so who gets to decide what is “teaching” and what is not “teaching”? Is it just you? Do you have a lost of other Papal teachings that are not “really” teachings?

You can continue to close your eyes and ears, but I think it is clear that changes are afoot. Certainly a real debate has long since started.
You seem to be confused about what is/isn’t Church dogma. Read Denzinger’s “Source of Catholic Dogma”. When all of the Fathers of the Church, Latin and Greek, agree on something……it is dogma. When 21 Councils of the Church define things….it is dogma. (The 21st Council, Vatican II, was not doctrinal but pastoral so didn’t define any doctrine). The ordinary universal teaching of the Catholic Church…is dogma. All of the Creeds (Nicene, Athanasian, Apostle’s, Trent) contain dogmas of the Church that must be believed.

New doctrines proposed today are clearly not dogma….but something else! :eek:
 
…But believing that doctrine evolves or that if majority rationalizes -and claims the Pope agrees with them- that contraception can be licit in at least some instances is……a heresy…
Your latter point is true, but beware your understanding of “evolves”. There is no assumption that the totality of doctrine exists or all gaps in understanding are filled. The undertaking we have is that the Church does not teach what is untrue.

Doctrines sometimes are reformulated simply to account for the change of meaning of words over time. It was proper at a point in distant history to speak of “worshipping” Mary. We would certainly not say that now, not because the honour due to Mary has changed (lessened), but because the *word *means something different now.
 
And to my mind, mostly misses the point. Any adoption of “the pill” by nuns in the Congo in the 1960s does not represent some dispensation or “exception” to the teachings of the Church.
It does for zz912 whom I addressed here.
And I would add - start with the understanding that “killing” is a pre-moral term - the moral content is missing.
Catholic tradition disagrees, “Thou shall not kill.” The CCC insists on this translation, not “thou shall not murder”.
So not only is an act involving “killing” sometimes permissible, even an act involving a deliberately chosen killing can be OK.
Yes even in self defence one sometimes has to “choose” to kill.
Moral theologians do not regard this as a “direct intention” but an “indirect intention”.
Very subtle isn’t it this “indirect intending”, yet true nonetheless.

One may never directly intend a death.
 
Clearly, one party chooses to use contraceptives and subject to awareness of what they do - sins.

As for the other party - the view is also expressed by some that that person knowingly chooses to engage in contracepted sex and thus they act in a way that is morally evil. [Ron Conte expresses this position] It could also be said that the “non-contracepting” party engages in immediate material cooperation with an intrinsically evil act. That would mark their cooperation as wrong. The duress of the situation would certainly bear on culpability - but not morality I would think.

However, the following document takes a different view - I think:
vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/family/documents/rc_pc_family_doc_12021997_vademecum_en.html

A subject for a different thread I think.
Then I am not with Ron on this one and, I hate to say it, must therefore lean towards your position. However you are suggesting it is not formally gravely sinful for the cooperator only because of duress which reduces imputability. I cannot agree, the Vatican document is clearly saying, it seems to me, that the complete moral act is not a grave sin.
Therefore for the co-operator it is not an “act of contraception” but an act of unitive love towards one’s objectively sinful partner and the contraception while “chosen” must therefore be only indirectly chosen. Just as a self defender only indirectly chooses to kill when directly intending protection of his family.
 
This right here. This is what (90% of) the Church has understood but has been unable to put as succinctly as you have.
Unfortunately we are in a very small minority on CAF and you risk contamination by association with my view ;).
 
…Moral theologians do not regard this as a “direct intention” but an “indirect intention”.
Which is unfortunately not very transparent language for most readers. I try to avoid it by expressing the same thing differently.
 
…Catholic tradition disagrees, “Thou shall not kill.” The CCC insists on this translation, not “thou shall not murder”.
It does not disagree with the theological meaning of the words however. Murder is the intrinsic evil, not Kill, despite the traditional wording of the commandment. Perhaps the brevity of the commandment is such as to demand one automatically factors in the direct intention and the innocence of the one who is killed…
 
Which is unfortunately not very transparent language for most readers. I try to avoid it by expressing the same thing differently.
To be honest I find it very difficult too.
Too say that one can at times “indirectly choose” to kill an aggressor in order to protect ones family is pretty wired to me.

I know I, and probably most people, once deciding that the guy has to be taken out - that is what I would be directly intending until the job was done!

Nevertheless that is the clearly enunciated principle and language behind the moral teaching.
 
…Therefore for the co-operator it is not an “act of contraception” but an act of unitive love towards one’s objectively sinful partner and the contraception while “chosen” must therefore be only indirectly chosen.
I haven’t studied the matter. Superficially:
  • I can see the view that the non-contracepting party materially cooperates with the other party who is sinning gravely; If so, he acts immorally.
  • I believe the document Iinked treats the matter otherwise.
    I’ve not examined either argument in any depth, and a little too far off-topic to do so here.
 
To be honest I find it very difficult too.
Too say that one can at times “indirectly choose” to kill an aggressor in order to protect ones family is pretty wired to me.

I know I, and probably most people, once deciding that the guy has to be taken out - that is what I would be directly intending until the job was done!

Nevertheless that is the clearly enunciated principle and language behind the moral teaching.
OR: One may choose, as a means, to kill an aggressor so long as one acts [insert pre-requisites for moral act here]
 
It does not disagree with the theological meaning of the words however. Murder is the intrinsic evil, not Kill, despite the traditional wording of the commandment. Perhaps the brevity of the commandment is such as to demand one automatically factors in the direct intention and the innocence of the one who is killed…
I am not sure exactly what “intrinsically evil” refers to these days.

But what I am sure of is that directly intending a death is always a mortal sin even in war.
The CCC makes no bones about it.
“Thou shall not kill” does NOT simply mean the more limited “thou shall not murder”
The latter suggests the guilty may be killed directly. This is expressly ruled out by the former.

Even Capital Punishment by the State must be intended for the protection of society (or some other proportionate good) and NOT the ruin of the offender.
 
I am not sure exactly what “intrinsically evil” refers to these days.

But what I am sure of is that directly intending a death is always a mortal sin even in war.
The CCC makes no bones about it.
“Thou shall not kill” does NOT simply mean the more limited “thou shall not murder”
The latter suggests the guilty may be killed directly. This is expressly ruled out by the former.

Even Capital Punishment by the State must be intended for the protection of society (or some other proportionate good) and NOT the ruin of the offender.
Well, we know the motivation for acting cannot ever be to do harm - physical or moral. Consider how different is the act of knocking down a door to see the fruits of one’s destructive capacity, versus doing the same to rescue another from fire. Joining the army (say, in 1939) because one yearns to “kill Nazis” places one in a bad place (morally). Killing Nazis in battle as an end (self-satisfying, revenge or whatever) is immoral. The taking of life can only ever be a means - it can never be the (first font) purpose/motivation/intention. Of course, in the complexity of human activity, these intentions and fonts all become nested, and no doubt the poor soldiers who go through this must constantly remind themselves of why they must do what they must do…
 
I haven’t studied the matter. Superficially:
  • I can see the view that the non-contracepting party materially cooperates with the other party who is sinning gravely; If so, he acts immorally…
I don’t understand why material cooperation in use of contraceptives (or grand theft for that matter) would always be immoral?
 
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