Pope condones contraceptives for zika outbreak?

[regression]

I wonder if the popes comments will have an adverse effect on the way the church views life as a whole, contraception in cases where a baby might be born with defects is different than one to save a mothers life…
One wonders if the disability defenders will be harmed by this.

But the Pope didn’t say people should use contraception, right? He just said avoid pregnancy. For example, a couple wouldn’t have sex when the woman is fertile. That is a way to avoid pregnancy.

 

[Micosil]

Come on. Doesn’t anyone remember how the media misrepresented, twisted and mangled Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI’s comments on contraception, claiming that the Pope said it was OK for male prostitutes to use condoms? As usual, history repeats itself.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

What about contraceptives which are abortifacients?

I get it. Abortion (and yes, I mean the induced elective kind, not the spontaneous ones often termed ‘miscarriage’ OR a procedure such as in an ectopic pregnancy which results secondarily in the death of the child but was not undertaken specifically with intent to cause death alone) is always a crime, a mortal sin.

And I’ve heard the ‘nuns in the Congo’ story, the ‘taking for medical reasons’, the ‘but they’re not Catholics so it’s OK’ reasons, the ‘there’s no difference between abstaining from sex to plan family and taking contraception because either way you’re making sure there is no chance for a child instead of being ‘bunnies’ and open to sex 24/7’, ad nauseam.

I have heard all the spins, I’ve seen all the data presented pro and con, heard all the sob stories on one side or the other. .

And all I can say based on observation of lo these nearly 60 years is that, without fail, when it has come to an ‘exception clause’ regarding a teaching of faith and morals, a ‘softening’, a concession made in ‘good faith’ in order to ‘lessen the burden’ on poor, POOR widdle people who just are so battered by societal demands and ‘personal situations’ and ‘unique circumstances’ that they’re just going to ‘break the law anyway’ and if the big bad MEN who run the RC outfit would just LIGHTEN UP their ‘man made rules’ that Jesus ‘never specifically said in the Bible’ then for this tiny, tiny CONCESSION the people who were given the concession would just become ON FIRE for Christ, rejuvenate the whole Church, etc. etc… . .

EVERY.SINGLE.TIME the concessions or helps or moving a holyday to the nearest Sunday or deemphasis of some ‘hard’ aspect of teaching or ‘deeper understanding of the woman’s subjugation and unique difficulties in modern society’ or ‘man’s guilt in centuries of patristic chauvinism’, or even the indult for Americans so that they do not HAVE to abstain except on Ash Wednesday, Good Friday and the other Fridays of Lent alone, HAVE NOT LED to the ‘wonderful, joyous, NECESSARY results’ we were told would occur.

Instead they have led to a poorly catechized, morally clueless, whiny, spoiled, ‘entitlement kings and queens’ practicing Protestant “average U.S. Catholic” who interprets everything from Canon Law to scripture to liturgy to the CCC by personal preference, and who considers that any difficulty with obedience to ANY Church teaching will disappear if ONLY they whine loudly enough or complain enough, and if they don’t get the bishops to cave (as too often they do), they simply do as they choose while trumpeting what GREAT CATHOLICS they are. A nation of little Popes and Popettes.

IMO.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

But the Pope didn’t say people should use contraception, right? He just said avoid pregnancy. For example, a couple wouldn’t have sex when the woman is fertile. That is a way to avoid pregnancy.

He referenced contraception in extreme cases then made his comments. He was specifically talking about abc. To try to spin it otherwise is to discredit his intellect.
I think the pope is in dangerous waters and I cannot agree with much he has said. I respect him enough, however, to at least give him the credit for knowing what he is saying and not needing a group of people every time to try to explain. " what the pope meant was…"
that is demeaning to do to a world leader.

 

[dans0622]

Maybe we will, once and for all, get to the bottom of this Paul VI/Congo nuns story. What did he actually say? I have never seen an actual document or statement.

Dan

P.S. I don’t see how the zika virus directly relates to the Congo nuns story…

 

[dixieagle]

Thank you for the explanation dixieagle. I appreciate it. I really do!

There is just still so much to this that I don’t understand. I am currently taking Accutane which is a medication known to cause severe birth defects. My doctor presented birth control as a must. I talked to my priest about it and he had me call The National Catholic Bioethics Center for clarification. They explained over the phone that birth control is intrinsically evil, period, no exceptions.

I can understand the nun scenario to a point, but then the logic breaks down for me. Conception only occurs by either God’s ordained will or His permitting will. I thought that rape or no rape, zika virus or no zika virus, any child conceived was supposed to be brought into the world.

That’s the point… “any child conceived was supposed to be brought into this world.” With the case of the nuns, the act that would have possibly resulted in a pregnancy was rape, not marital intercourse, and the contraception would have prevented (supposedly) any pregnancy. There would have been no child to consider. This was an extraordinary circumstance, to be sure, but the question of abortion didn’t enter into this. (I have no idea what became of those brave nuns, or have long since forgotten.)

The Church allows natural methods of spacing of births achieved through periodic abstinence (NFP), but in the case of Accutane, there is no “safe” period while you’re on the medication. Therefore, abstinence would be required. (Is there really nothing else you can use? I believe Accutane has actually been banned in the US. It can have long-term side effects.)

I haven’t seen the full transcript of what the Pope said with regard to contraception and Zika, so I won’t speculate, except to guess that the press hasn’t got it right.

 

[dans0622]

Here’s a translation…:

ncregister.com/daily-news/full-text-of-pope-francis-in-flight-interview-from-mexico-to-rome/

Dan

 

[TMC]

Perhaps he knows exactly what he is saying. It isn’t like this is the first time on an airplane with reporters. It isn’t like he had no idea about the Zika situation.
Maybe, just maybe this pope means what he says.

Of course he does.

 

[cathgal]

and on Yahoo news:

ABOARD THE PAPAL PLANE (AP) — Pope Francis has suggested that women threatened with the Zika virus could use artificial contraception, saying there’s a clear moral difference between aborting a fetus and preventing a pregnancy.

yahoo.com/news/pope-suggests-contraception-condoned-zika-170553321.html

That is one slippery slope statement.

Damage is done once again, regardless if the correction is ever made and likely not.

There is no end to the confusion the Pope causes.

 

[regression]

That’s the point… “any child conceived was supposed to be brought into this world.” With the case of the nuns, the act that would have possibly resulted in a pregnancy was rape, not marital intercourse, and the contraception would have prevented (supposedly) any pregnancy. There would have been no child to consider. This was an extraordinary circumstance, to be sure, but the question of abortion didn’t enter into this. (I have no idea what became of those brave nuns, or have long since forgotten.)

The Church allows natural methods of spacing of births achieved through periodic abstinence (NFP), but in the case of Accutane, there is no “safe” period while you’re on the medication. Therefore, abstinence would be required. (Is there really nothing else you can use? I believe Accutane has actually been banned in the US. It can have long-term side effects.)

I haven’t seen the full transcript of what the Pope said with regard to contraception and Zika, so I won’t speculate, except to guess that the press hasn’t got it right.

This is the first time I heard about the case in Africa. One of the ways birth control works is to change the lining of the uterus so the baby cannot implant, thus dying. Wouldn’t that still be immoral? I could see birth control pills being on in the case of the nuns referenced if it only prevented ovulation, ie, no way for a human to be created.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

The events of the last week have completely devastated the sisters of the poor’s case …

 

[dixieagle]

This is the first time I heard about the case in Africa. One of the ways birth control works is to change the lining of the uterus so the baby cannot implant, thus dying. Wouldn’t that still be immoral? I could see birth control pills being on in the case of the nuns referenced if it only prevented ovulation, ie, no way for a human to be created.

Back in the 1960s they may not have yet realized that there was the possibility of early abortion; if I recall (and I was very, very young in the '60s), the accepted wisdom was that the pill simply prevented conception.

 

[TMC]

Back in the 1960s they may not have yet realized that there was the possibility of early abortion; if I recall (and I was very, very young in the '60s), the accepted wisdom was that the pill simply prevented conception.

That remains the accepted wisdom.

 

[LongingSoul]

FYI, from NPR:

]The Vatican press office described the pope’s remarks on contraception: “Using contraceptives to avoid pregnancy can be acceptable in difficult situations, he said, noting that Pope Paul VI authorized nuns in Africa to do the same half a century ago when they were threatened with rape.”
That exceptional dispensation from Paul VI was not publicized at the time, the AP writes, and little is known about it.

npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/02/18/467220097/pope-suggests-contraception-use-may-be-lesser-evil-for-those-fearing-zika

I haven’t had a chance to fact-check the above, tho. Maybe someone wants to check the Vatican Press Office site online to see if they released the statement above.

.

From what I remember from talking about it years ago is that it was the doctors at the Congo mission who made the decision to put the nuns on contraception and that the Pope only mentioned that it was not out of keeping with Catholic doctrine.

It wasn’t a ‘dispensation’ but a solution left to the experts and religious in the field in their capacity of pastoral care The nuns were celibate women and in no circumstance would they be in a situation of contracepting. Rape is not sexual intercourse but a violent assault against a person.

 

[Stylteralmaldo]

Here’s a translation…:

ncregister.com/daily-news/full-text-of-pope-francis-in-flight-interview-from-mexico-to-rome/

Dan

Paloma García Ovejero, Cadena COPE (Spain): Holy Father, for several weeks there’s been a lot of concern in many Latin American countries but also in Europe regarding the Zika virus. The greatest risk would be for pregnant women. There is anguish. Some authorities have proposed abortion, or else to avoiding pregnancy. As regards avoiding pregnancy, on this issue, can the Church take into consideration the concept of “the lesser of two evils?”

Pope Francis: Abortion is not the lesser of two evils. It is a crime. It is to throw someone out in order to save another. That’s what the Mafia does. It is a crime, an absolute evil. On the “lesser evil,” avoiding pregnancy, we are speaking in terms of the conflict between the fifth and sixth commandment. Paul VI, a great man, in a difficult situation in Africa, permitted nuns to use contraceptives in cases of rape.

Don’t confuse the evil of avoiding pregnancy by itself, with abortion. Abortion is not a theological problem, it is a human problem, it is a medical problem. You kill one person to save another, in the best-case scenario. Or to live comfortably, no? It’s against the Hippocratic oaths doctors must take. It is an evil in and of itself, but it is not a religious evil in the beginning, no, it’s a human evil. Then obviously, as with every human evil, each killing is condemned.

On the other hand, avoiding pregnancy is not an absolute evil. In certain cases, as in this one, such as the one I mentioned of Blessed Paul VI, it was clear. I would also urge doctors to do their utmost to find vaccines against these two mosquitoes that carry this disease. This needs to be worked on.

What I find interesting regarding how the Pope answered this question is that he wasn’t asked about contraception at all. Maybe it was implied in the question? Not sure what the “two evils” are. Clearly abortion is one of the evils being asked about. The other “evil” may be interpreted as children being conceived with severe birth defects (that’s how I read the question). Maybe the other “evil” implied was contraception thus why the Pontiff answered as such?

 

[regression]

Back in the 1960s they may not have yet realized that there was the possibility of early abortion; if I recall (and I was very, very young in the '60s), the accepted wisdom was that the pill simply prevented conception.

Ah, good point. I agree the Pope could have been clearer, but what I got out of it was abortion is always wrong and there can be legitimate reasons to avoid pregnancy. None of which are new Catholic teachings.

 

[dans0622]

Ah, thanks for posting this.
So here’s what he said, according to the National Catholic Register. Who does the translating, tho? Not sure if the translation comes from the Vatican or the publication?:
…

Not sure who, in particular, translated it. It’s a product of the Catholic News Agency, not the Vatican. Eventually, there will be a translation on the Vatican website. Whether or not that will be different from this one, I don’t know.

Dan

 

[Biggie]

Do I really have to have this level of sophistication to remain Catholic? So what I taught my daughters and practiced myself as a simple Catholic teaching is not a simple Catholic teaching? I need this level of nuance to teach it and defend it?

When a gynecologist told my daughter that she should have taken birth control pills to have prevented her gynecological problems that resulted in her infertility we were wrong to have rejected that out of hand? We were in the end to blame?

So couples who are in anguish over likely birth defect issues vs. the prohibition against birth control have tortured themselves over nothing? And people who defended the Church’s position on the use of condoms to prevent AIDS are now in the position of comparing the dangers of contracting a death dealing disease unfavorably to the dangers of conceiving a child with a birth defect?

How far are we from retreating to the “inner forum” on birth control to join those in the “inner forum” on divorce?

It has always been difficult to explain and uphold the Catholic position on birth control. It is more difficult today. And more difficult still to explain why the Pope has made this necessary.

 

[_Abyssinia]

Read the actual text of what Pope Francis actually said. He doesn’t say contraception would be a “lesser evil” !!!]

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Do I really have to have this level of sophistication to remain Catholic? So what I taught my daughters and practiced myself as a simple Catholic teaching is not a simple Catholic teaching? I need this level of nuance to teach it and defend it?

When a gynecologist told my daughter that she should have taken birth control pills to have prevented her gynecological problems that resulted in her infertility we were wrong to have rejected that out of hand? We were in the end to blame?

So couples who are in anguish over likely birth defect issues vs. the prohibition against birth control have tortured themselves over nothing? And people who defended the Church’s position on the use of condoms to prevent AIDS are now in the position of comparing the dangers of contracting a death dealing disease unfavorably to the dangers of conceiving a child with a birth defect?

How far are we from retreating to the “inner forum” on birth control to join those in the “inner forum” on divorce?

It has always been difficult to explain and uphold the Catholic position on birth control. It is more difficult today. And more difficult still to explain why the Pope has made this necessary.

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