Pope condones contraceptives for zika outbreak?

  • Thread starter Thread starter dailey
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
gilliam said:
What did Pope Francis actually say about contraception?

(CNA/EWTN News).- Despite a rush of headlines claiming Pope Francis is softening the Church’s stance on contraception, a closer look at his recent remarks could suggest otherwise.

During an in-flight press conference on his way back from Mexico, Pope Francis was asked by a reporter about the threat of Zika virus in many Latin American countries.

Noting that the virus may be linked to birth defects when transmitted from a pregnant woman to her unborn baby, the reporter asked the Holy Father about proposals involving “abortion, or else avoiding pregnancy” in areas where Zika virus is prevalent.

The Pope responded by emphatically stating that abortion is “a crime” and “absolute evil” that cannot be justified. He also spoke on the topic of avoiding pregnancy.

“Paul VI, a great man, in a difficult situation in Africa, permitted nuns to use contraceptives in cases of rape,” he said.

Seven sentences later, he added another comment. Not mentioning contraception specifically, he simply said that “avoiding pregnancy is not an absolute evil. In certain cases, as in this one, or in the one I mentioned of Blessed Paul VI, it was clear.”

Numerous news outlets suggesteder that the Pope was introducing a change – or at least a softening – in previous teaching.

However, Dr. Melissa Moschella, a philosophy professor at The Catholic University of America, suggested that this may not be the case.

catholicnewsagency.com/news/what-did-pope-francis-actually-say-about-contraception-47196/
Click to expand...
That is a Kung fu chi type leap. Perhaps the good philosopher can help ol Bill Clinton define the word “is”

He seems to be saying " he wasn’t talking about what he said he was talking about…"
 
Peccavi said:
90% of my Catholic friends confess to using contraception. Isn’t it time we set aside the fiction of Catholics having rhythm ?
Click to expand...
NFP =/= rhythm method. To claim that is rank ignorance. Of course, NFP requires some work and actually talking to your spouse, and like many things is found difficult and left untried.

Plus, I wasn’t aware the Church was a place where we set doctrines and such by polls and votes. A lot of "c"atholics support abortion and the death penalty after all.
 
Biggie said:
Do I really have to have this level of sophistication to remain Catholic? So what I taught my daughters and practiced myself as a simple Catholic teaching is not a simple Catholic teaching? I need this level of nuance to teach it and defend it?

When a gynecologist told my daughter that she should have taken birth control pills to have prevented her gynecological problems that resulted in her infertility we were wrong to have rejected that out of hand? We were in the end to blame?

So couples who are in anguish over likely birth defect issues vs. the prohibition against birth control have tortured themselves over nothing? And people who defended the Church’s position on the use of condoms to prevent AIDS are now in the position of comparing the dangers of contracting a death dealing disease unfavorably to the dangers of conceiving a child with a birth defect?

How far are we from retreating to the “inner forum” on birth control to join those in the “inner forum” on divorce?

It has always been difficult to explain and uphold the Catholic position on birth control. It is more difficult today. And more difficult still to explain why the Pope has made this necessary.
Click to expand...
I will comment on the first instance you mention. The Church teaching on “birth control” is that the use of such hormones for medical purposes, e.g., treating certain gynecological issues, is allowable. That’s not new. One is not taking the pills (presumably) to contracept, but to treat a physical condition.

You raise interesting issues re: the “internal forum”.
 
Weeorphan said:
Pope Francis has the opposite intent…to repopulate the empty pews at any cost, even if it bruises the unsullied faithful.
He seems to be democratizing the Church, not unlike the Lutherans and Anglicans have.
Click to expand...
I don’t agree with the ‘at any cost’ bit at all. If that were the case, my current time in RCIA would be 2 weeks instead of 6+ months. LOL.

Democratization, at it’s basic level, would mean that there would be chinks in the armor of apostolic succession. I see no evidence of that at al. Sure, every now and then there might be a Bishop who gets a bit out of control, or a priest who gets too liberal in their teachings, but the bed rock of that succession and papal authority seems alive and well to me - especially when compared to the train wreck that is the Lutheran, Anglican, and Episcopal churches - not to mention the 30,000 other Protestant denominations…
 
Weeorphan said:
Pope Francis has been a disturbing figure some three years now, speaking without the careful circumspection of former Popes John Paul and Benedict. His recent comment on using artificial birth control to prevent Zika abnormalities is typical of his offhanded manner. To say it is not a papal decree doesn’t mitigate the heavy offical effect (good and bad) on Catholics. We hear only careless, mixed messages from him, and that’s a tragedy…

Personally, I perceive Pope Francis is not sophisticated enough for the important role he plays. He seems to me like a buffoonish character in an overlong, slapstick French farce.

That said, one wonders if any other man could criticize the Mexican bishops as worldly.
Or exemplify the spirit of poverty by dwelling in a cheap apartment rather than the Vatican.

Concerning artificial birth control (AFB), few Catholics are using natural family planing (NFP) or chaste abstinence to plan their families. His comment is reasonable to those very many Catholics in Brazil and elsewhere who won’t be agonizing over use of AFB to prevent birth defects.He enjoys popular appeal for a variety of reasons But that may not be good…

The problem, as I see it, his appeal to popularity is like a typical politician who says what the majority of lukewarm Catholics and hedonists want to hear. Unlike Pope Benedict who thought it best to prune the Church so it bear better fruit, Pope Francis has the opposite intent…to repopulate the empty pews at any cost, even if it bruises the unsullied faithful.
He seems to be democratizing the Church, not unlike the Lutherans and Anglicans have.

This leaves the remnant minority of true, practicing Catholics quite disturbed by his flippant statements. Let’s have faith the Holy Spirit rectifies this conflicted situation post haste.
Click to expand...
How incredibly arrogant and insulting to our Pope. I like to think that the Holy Spirit already made Himself clear, when Francis was elected.
 
dixieagle said:
I will comment on the first instance you mention. The Church teaching on “birth control” is that the use of such hormones for medical purposes, e.g., treating certain gynecological issues, is allowable. That’s not new. One is not taking the pills (presumably) to contracept, but to treat a physical condition.
Click to expand...
This is true. For example if a woman is continually bleeding severely, these hormones might be prescribed to stop the hemorrhaging. The Church does not even consider that sort of use controversial. It’s their use to contracept that is sinful, not their use to treat a potentially serious medical condition.

Please note that I did not say anything about the use of oral contraceptives with the Zika virus because I have no knowledge at all about what the medical treatment is, though I suspect it does not involve hormonal treatment.
 
Weeorphan said:
Pope Francis has been a disturbing figure some three years now, speaking without the careful circumspection of former Popes John Paul and Benedict. His recent comment on using artificial birth control to prevent Zika abnormalities is typical of his offhanded manner. To say it is not a papal decree doesn’t mitigate the heavy offical effect (good and bad) on Catholics. We hear only careless, mixed messages from him, and that’s a tragedy…

Personally, I perceive Pope Francis is not sophisticated enough for the important role he plays. He seems to me like a buffoonish character in an overlong, slapstick French farce.

That said, one wonders if any other man could criticize the Mexican bishops as worldly.
Or exemplify the spirit of poverty by dwelling in a cheap apartment rather than the Vatican.

Concerning artificial birth control (AFB), few Catholics are using natural family planing (NFP) or chaste abstinence to plan their families. His comment is reasonable to those very many Catholics in Brazil and elsewhere who won’t be agonizing over use of AFB to prevent birth defects.He enjoys popular appeal for a variety of reasons But that may not be good…

The problem, as I see it, his appeal to popularity is like a typical politician who says what the majority of lukewarm Catholics and hedonists want to hear. Unlike Pope Benedict who thought it best to prune the Church so it bear better fruit, Pope Francis has the opposite intent…to repopulate the empty pews at any cost, even if it bruises the unsullied faithful.
He seems to be democratizing the Church, not unlike the Lutherans and Anglicans have.

This leaves the remnant minority of true, practicing Catholics quite disturbed by his flippant statements. Let’s have faith the Holy Spirit rectifies this conflicted situation post haste.
Click to expand...
You’re listed as a New Member.

I think you might not make it much further.
 
gilliam said:
**What did Pope Francis actually say about contraception?**Not mentioning contraception specifically, he simply said that “avoiding pregnancy is not an absolute evil. In certain cases, as in this one, or in the one I mentioned of Blessed Paul VI, it was clear.”
Click to expand...
I don’t see where he mentioned it. 🤷
 
I’ll just point out that reposting that individual’s message will only help propagate, unwittingly, their bizarre, extreme views.

It’s best to just ignore (and if need be) report posts that are only serve to insult or disparage the Vicar of Christ.
 
dixieagle said:
How incredibly arrogant and insulting to our Pope. I like to think that the Holy Spirit already made Himself clear, when Francis was elected.
Click to expand...
I agree the poster was over the line, but let’s not equally step over the line and insist every pope is hand picked by the Holy Spirit. That is not Catholic teaching.
 
Weeorphan said:
This leaves the remnant minority of true, practicing Catholics quite disturbed by his flippant statements. Let’s have faith the Holy Spirit rectifies this conflicted situation post haste.
Click to expand...
The Church is never a “remnant” and can never be a remnant.
The Church is the Body of Christ, and Christ is not “what remains”, Christ is the fullness of what is.
Christ is the living Son of God, the fulfillment of everything that exists, not what is left-over.
 
dixieagle said:
I like to think that the Holy Spirit already made Himself clear, when Francis was elected.
Click to expand...
Excuse me!!
“I would not say so, in the sense that the Holy Spirit picks out the Pope…I would say that the Spirit does not exactly take control of the affair, but rather like a good educator, as it were, leaves us much space, much freedom, without entirely abandoning us. Thus the Spirit’s role should be understood in a much more elastic sense, not that he dictates the candidate for whom one must vote. Probably the only assurance he offers is that the thing cannot be totally ruined.”
Click to expand...
“There are too many contrary instances of popes the Holy Spirit obviously would not have picked!”
Click to expand...
Pope Benedict XVI, as Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger
Click to expand...
The Mystery of Providence
Since God is omnipotent, he could stop any particular thing in the universe from happening. Therefore, if something does happen, it is only because God allowed it to happen.
If God chose to allow it, anything that does happen could–in this broadest sense–be described as God’s choice.
But that does not mean it is what God prefers.
There are a lot of things in history that God allowed but that would not have been his “first choice.”
Take the fall of man and our redemption by Christ. In one sense, that’s clearly God’s choice. But we cannot ascribe Adam’s sin to God as his ideal choice.
How man’s free will relates to God’s providence is complex, and we should be careful of simplistic solutions.

God Guides the Church
We can be confident of the general principle that God guides his Church. This is something we have biblical assurance of.
But his guidance does not prevent human free will from operating, and that means there is the potential for humans to abuse their free will.
That applies to the college of cardinals, too, even when they are electing a pope. They do not lose their free will.
Click to expand...
Read more: ncregister.com/blog/jimmy-akin/the-next-pope-will-be-gods-choice-.-.-.-right
Click to expand...
 
ARSpade said:
NFP =/= rhythm method. To claim that is rank ignorance. Of course, NFP requires some work and actually talking to your spouse, and like many things is found difficult and left untried.

Plus, I wasn’t aware the Church was a place where we set doctrines and such by polls and votes. A lot of "c"atholics support abortion and the death penalty after all.
Click to expand...
It’s not intrinsically evil to support the death penalty.
------> catholic.com/blog/tim-staples/the-church-and-capital-punishment
 
_Abyssinia said:
Pope’s Words on Contraception in Accord With Magisterium, Philosophers Say, But Context Is Key

ncregister.com/daily-news/popes-comments-on-contraception-in-accord-with-magisterium-philosophers-say/
Click to expand...
Oh well, that settled that!
I thought the pope could not have been clearer. ABC was ok in this extreme circumstance.

On a side note. This pope is fond of saying we should not be limited by rules, people cheer him for it and the flip side is that the rules and law is not flexible enough to bend like this without breaking. The danger is mercy without justice. This all falls into the popes view of mercy and rules.
 
:rolleyes: I’m still amazed people are surprised.

Of course the Pope’s words are in accord with the Magisterium.

Look, when Benedict XVI’s words were mangled or misunderstood, most educated Catholics knew what he was saying, but for some reason when it comes to Francis, a lot of people assume the worst. Perhaps it’s because his first language isn’t English as someone here said, perhaps it’s because because he was speaking in a “very spontaneously, off the cuff and in a very personal way,” as the article says. But we also need to remember that this is the Vicar of Christ speaking, and I think we should give him the benefit of the doubt more often. 👍
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top