Pope condones contraceptives for zika outbreak?

[white_sheep]

Your Catholic view? To be able to claim a superior credential, I assume you have done 7 years of seminary, 50 plus years as holy Priest, Bishop, Archbishop, Cardinal. Are so highly respected by the College of Cardinals for your track record that you are elected Pope.

How amazing to have you here with us to tell us about Papal heresies!

So it takes 57 years to learn how to interpret the phrase “intrinsically evil”?

I don’t understand the reactions here. The use of contraceptives is immoral and against Church teaching. This is common knowledge that everyone knows, even Protestants, atheists, everyone on the street. Probably more people know this than can name the vice president.

 

[white_sheep]

You have my word I am not trying to force you. Promise. Just checking we have the same info.
If it is sexually transmitted ,NFP makes no point. Agree ?

No.

I don’t think you understand the virus. Zika is a virus that is primarily transmitted by mosquito bite, with fairly good evidence that it can be sexually transmitted, and if a pregnant woman in the first 1, possibly 2 trimesters is infected with it, there is a slight chance that her child could develop microcephaly, if the causal link is proven.

There are a lot of questions left to be answered. Does it actually cause microcephaly?

What are the odds that a woman who is infected with zika in the first trimester will deliver a baby with microcephaly? Current estimate is 1 in a thousand.

Is this a virus that you can only be infected with once, like CMV? (Cytomegalovirus)

 

[graciew]

No.

I don’t think you understand the virus. Zika is a virus that is primarily transmitted by mosquito bite, with fairly good evidence that it can be sexually transmitted, and if a pregnant woman in the first 1, possibly 2 trimesters is infected with it, there is a slight chance that her child could develop microcephaly, if the causal link is proven.

There are a lot of questions left to be answered. Does it actually cause microcephaly?

What are the odds that a woman who is infected with zika in the first trimester will deliver a baby with microcephaly? Current estimate is 1 in a thousand.

Is this a virus that you can only be infected with once, like CMV? (Cytomegalovirus)

Ok. I later thought the point wasn t clear.
It is not only about pregnamcy but if it is sexually transmitted the.more chances.more mosquitoes may bite infested persons.
Agree that it is so much we do not know yet that it becomes serious.
Zika takes from 3 to 12 days to shiw sympthoms and it may be asympthomatic.
To make it worse there are also dengue and chikungunya also transmitted by Aedes Aegypti which have similar sympthoms. They can also cause death,though not that frequently.
So the point is this disease transmitted at large scales is a danger.

 

[white_sheep]

Ok. I later thought the point wasn t clear.
It is not only about pregnamcy but if it is sexually transmitted the.more chances.more mosquitoes may bite infested persons.
Agree that it is so much we do not know yet that it becomes serious.
Zika takes from 3 to 12 days to shiw sympthoms and it may be asympthomatic.
To make it worse there are also dengue and chikungunya also transmitted by Aedes Aegypti which have similar sympthoms. They can also cause death,though not that frequently.
So the point is this disease transmitted at large scales is a danger.

Zika is a very mild illness. Most don’t know they caught it. If you can’t really be reinfected and most of the people in these areas have already been infected, then it may have already caused most of the harm it will ever do. There would still be the occasional case of microcephaly afterward, but it would be mostly over.

 

[abucs]

Your Catholic view? To be able to claim a superior credential, I assume you have done 7 years of seminary, 50 plus years as holy Priest, Bishop, Archbishop, Cardinal. Are so highly respected by the College of Cardinals for your track record that you are elected Pope.

How amazing to have you here with us to tell us about Papal heresies!

First of all there was no claim to any superior credentials so i really don’t know what you are talking about.

Secondly, perhaps you should point out where i said the pope is a heretic because of what he has said about contraception and the Zika virus.

If you cannot do this then i think the charitable thing for you to do is to offer an apology.

Thank you.

 

[graciew]

Zika is a very mild illness. Most don’t know they caught it. If you can’t really be reinfected and most of the people in these areas have already been infected, then it may have already caused most of the harm it will ever do. There would still be the occasional case of microcephaly afterward, but it would be mostly over.

Say these people is us next for the next couple of years.

Ocasionally microcephalia and Guillain Barre .
And the worst it would ever do is suffering either for a vast number of the people plus extending it to you up North.
I guess we could…prevent it through NFP for ourselves but in no way prevent it from reaching you through us.
I guess you may still say we will grin and bear it , the Americas and beyond.
And I also guess we won t see many of those kids alive.
Let us pray that we can discern God s will in serious cases.

 

[gracepoole]

These are incredibly bizarre times on CAF. I never thought the day would come when I’d see someone here calling a living pope a heretic.

Did this become PAF at the stroke of midnight?

 

[Blue_Horizon]

So it takes 57 years to learn how to interpret the phrase “intrinsically evil”?

I don’t understand the reactions here. The use of contraceptives is immoral and against Church teaching. This is common knowledge that everyone knows, even Protestants, atheists, everyone on the street. Probably more people know this than can name the vice president.

Its not really the “use of contraceptives” that is immoral, it is “contraceptive acts”.
Janet Smith explains it better than me:
catholicworldreport.com/Item/4594/contraception_congo_nuns_choosing_the_lesser_evil_and_conflict_of_commandments.aspx

 

[white_sheep]

Its not really the “use of contraceptives” that is immoral, it is “contraceptive acts”.
Janet Smith explains it better than me:
catholicworldreport.com/Item/4594/contraception_congo_nuns_choosing_the_lesser_evil_and_conflict_of_commandments.aspx

Yes, I know.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

The Church is not a cult of personality.

Neither is it meant to be a cult of legalistic impersonality.
Yet it has been for the last 1000 years and worked up to a point.

A cult of personality would restore some much needed balance to the force if that is the risk of a more pastoral orientation.

 

[white_sheep]

What does the word pastoral mean to you?

 

[abucs]

Neither is it meant to be a cult of legalistic impersonality.
Yet it has been for the last 1000 years and worked up to a point.

A cult of personality would restore some much needed balance to the force if that is the risk of a more pastoral orientation.

With respect, do you really categorise the church for the last 1000 years as a cult of legalistic impersonality?

That’s a thousand year history of Theology, charity, hospitals, universities, schools, papal encyclicals, relief effort, support for the arts and science etc etc.

That’s a lot of history to categorise so simply and critically.

 

[white_sheep]

What does the word pastoral mean to you?

 

[Rose71]

I’ve been thinking about this over the weekend.

When I logged back on, I was amazed to see how the debate was still raging - albeit raging round in cirlces.

I’ve concluded that a lot of Catholics have placed themselves exactly where the secular media wants them to be. To use a pastoral metaphor, they are running round like a load of panicky sheep because someone has shouted “WOLF!” …even though there isn’t actually a wolf in the field!

The Pope has confimred that abortion is evil. That should need to explanation or justification. I hope we all agree that extinguishing an innocent life is wrong.

We know that the Zika virus can be sexually transmitted and we know that if it enters the body of a female who is pregnant, it can result in severe deformity.

We know that there are 2 ways to prevent this: abstinence and barrier-method contraceptives. I’m not including NFP here because not every woman has a regular cycle. For some women, the perimenopause can last 10 years or more, so although it is a wonderful tool for many couples, it has limited use for many more.

So, armed with this knowledge and mindful of a whole load of ‘unknowns’ about Zika and the lifespan and healthcare needs of a baby born with a deformed head, a married couple who are already expecting a child and choose to protect the life of their unborn child by using a method of contraceptive that acts as a barrier … are still at fault (because abstinence would be better) but the Pope has comapssion for them because their primary motive is the protection of their baby and because as fallible humans, we do sometimes slip up.

Anyone who remained cellibate until their wedding night and has never used contraceptives (other than for other medical reasons) feel free to disagree.

(PS - I did manage the above and I can tell you, being finally married aged 42, it nearly cost me my sanity!!!)

However, even though contraception is a sin…in these circumstances, where there is a genuine fear of something pretty horrific and a lot of unanswerd questions about the long term prognosis and effects, the Pope is saying that the sin of contracepting is not as great as the absolute evil of deliberately killing a foetus.

 

[TCEL]

Rose71:

I think you may be summarized as saying that some sins are worse than others, correct? I agree, but that isn’t how this will be taken. The world doesn’t see contraception as a mortal sin, but in vast cases as an objective good and moral obligation. There are also many people who are celibate and maintain their sanity, . This will work against the people trying to shed light on the fact that family and marriage as an icon of Christ’s love for the Church, as these people are already facing immense pressure. What do you think?

 

[zz912]

Well thanks for clarifying what you believe. Personally, I’ll stick with what the Church teaches. And contrary to your ‘belief’, he has not changed Church teaching.

One of the few things giving me comfort in these days is relying upon the truth that even the Pope cannot change Church teaching. Thank God!

 

[Rose71]

Rose71:

I think you may be summarized as saying that some sins are worse than others, correct? I agree, but that isn’t how this will be taken. The world doesn’t see contraception as a mortal sin, but in vast cases as an objective good and moral obligation. There are also many people who are celibate and maintain their sanity, . This will work against the people trying to shed light on the fact that family and marriage as an icon of Christ’s love for the Church, as these people are already facing immense pressure. What do you think?

Interesting questions - many thanks for asking and making me think!

1. Yes, I believe (and I also believe the Pope was saying) that some sins are worse than others.
2. I agree that the secular world, as well as some who see themselves as ‘Liberal Catholics’ will not have the inclination, interest or motive to delve further into the Pope’s words and will be happy to take what they read / hear in the media at face value.

I would suggest that these people had already made their minds up about contraception. Those who were ‘on the fence’ may or may not be inspired by the Pope’s recent comments to find out more about the Church’s teaching. What is reassuring and I think very positive is the Pope’s unequivocal statement that abortion is evil.

Call me an optimist (but not insane, please: I only said I nearly lost my sanity!) but I suspect that no matter how the media tries to dress up what the Pope has said, they can’t make ‘abortion is evil’ sound like ‘abortion is okay, really’. Even if people are drawn in by the headline that has deliberately obfuscated the contraceptive message, I haven’t read anything that manages to water down or hide the message about abortion.

In that respect, I think Francis is a bit smarter than a lot of people give him credit for. He’s opened the door for people who are already interested in what the Church has to say on ABC by inspiring them to find out the truth. He’s shown compassion for those who are facing what must be an awful dilemma (again, I can smugly say from my Western European perch that I’d never use ABC, but if I was pregnant and terrified and in a country with poor healthcare and a lack of information and services, I might just be acting in a mad panic and take a course of action that, without Francis’ words, I could spend the rest of my life beating myself up about, rather than going to Confession and feeling able to raise it with the priest) and he’s reinforced the most important message, which is that to kill a human being before he / she is even born, whether or not he / she has a deformity, is evil.

I think Francis has made a lot of people take notice of Catholics, rather than just accepting received wisdom and the media’s version of what a Catholic is and thinks. He’s challenging the secular perception that being a Catholic is all about following outdated, superstitious rituals and reaching out to people who want to be challenged and encouraged to think about the world’s problems on a bigger scale.

D and nobody was standing behind me waving a ferula when I wrote this!!!)

 

[TCEL]

Rose, thanks for the laughs. You are correct, I hadn’t thought about the fact that his comments on abortion were glossed over. I also sympathize with what you mean about being perched snug and comfortable in my western perch. After the birth of my son, I had an even deeper sympathy for women in crisis pregnancies, but also a deeper horror for abortion. It strengthened my “pre-birth” convictions. I still think what I am saying is different from what Pope Francis said. To my ear, he made it sound permissible and not just the lesser of two evils.

Laying aside theological nitty-gritty, it really feels like he’s leaving some standing alone in the front lines where it is most difficult to fight this fight. I certainly don’t think it’s malicious, but I don’t think this is a fight near to his heart. Matters of sexuality are terribly important though. The body is important. God’s incarnation proves this.

I believe we can always go to the Lord for forgiveness, but I think we gamble with our soul if we take pre-meditated sin lightly, or even seriously. I know this. I don’t mean that God’s mercy isn’t greater than our sin, but that we can seriously damage our own integrity. It isn’t good to mess with that! That’s why I also ultimately agree with the spirit behind Pope Francis’ statement of “who am I to judge?” God knows our integrity.

Anyway, I’m rambling.

 

[Rose71]

Hello again TCEL!

Interesting what you said about it not being a fight close to his own heart. That’s got me thinking now! I do sometimes get the impression that he deliberately uses questions around ABC and sexuality to highlight other world issues. It’s as though he’s saying (to massively paraphrase and possibly misinterpret) “why does everyone want to hear about Catholics and sex - stop agonising over it (if you are Catholic) or taking a perverse and voyeuristic interest (if you are the media) and look at the bigger picture!”

Putting myself in the shoes of the mother of a teenager who has read the secular media and convinced him / herself that ABC isn’t that big a deal, I would find it terribly difficult. I know what I would encourage my child to do and I would hope I’d done a good enough job that he/ she wouldn’t jump to conclusions and would be wise to the media’s trickery…but who knows?

Thanks again for making me think It’s nice to get feedback from posts that is constructive and challenging in a pleasant and friendly way!

 

[TCEL]

It’s as though he’s saying (to massively paraphrase and possibly misinterpret) “why does everyone want to hear about Catholics and sex - stop agonising over it (if you are Catholic) or taking a perverse and voyeuristic interest (if you are the media) and look at the bigger picture!”

I think he’s right about this. There is so much more to Catholicism than the sexual “rules”. It’s a whole. I had learned about a lot of the non-sexual stuff. Then like a bombshell the Church’s teaching about sexuality exploded into my life. It was a facet of the “dunamis”, or “dynamite,” of the good news that had been missing in my walk with Christ. Perhaps that is simply because of the hyper-sexualized context I am living in. What was the Church’s answer?

With other people it’s different things. Pope Francis’ heart lies with the poor. I don’t think that’s hard to figure out. His message of mercy also resonates with me, because part of my initial adult maturity into faith dealt deeply with the conviction of sin and guilt. In “The Name of God is Mercy,” Pope Francis says this conviction of sin is a grace to ask for. I wish I had heard that when I was going through it, because I had no idea what the heck was going on. That’s rough territory to try to navigate solo!

So to bring it full-circle, I humbly think Pope Francis is wrong about this, but even more importantly, I believe that the Church is what Christ says it is, His Bride. I submitted to a Person, not an ideology, and pray God He gives me grace.