Pope criticizes the ‘cruelty’ of capitalism

  • Thread starter Thread starter a_priori
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
A

a_priori

Guest
VATICAN CITY - Benedict XVI criticizes the “cruelty” of capitalism and colonialism and the power of the wealthy over the poor in his first book as pope released on Friday.

Benedict began writing his personal meditation on Jesus Christ’s teachings, entitled “Jesus of Nazareth,” in 2003 when he was still Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger. He stressed that the book is an expression of his “personal search for the face of the Lord” and is by no means official Catholic Church doctrine.

“Everyone is free, then, to contradict me,” he wrote.

msnbc.msn.com/id/18094760/
 
levi86 said:
Do you have a particular issue with what The Pope has said?
Click to expand...
In a word, yes.
I think he lacked the courage to nail his colours to the mast.
Our Lord condemned capitalism, he called it Mammon, and damned it as anti-G_d.
I think it is high time that the Church stopped dilly-dallying the point.
Capitalism = Mammon = Anti-G_d = evil.
 
Voco_proTatiano said:
Our Lord condemned capitalism, he called it Mammon, and damned it as anti-G_d.
Click to expand...
No He didn’t. He condemned focussing on money to the exclusion of God. It is very possible to work hard, get lots of money, (probably donate to charities and to the Church) and still love God.
 
What do you propose as an alternative?

I forget who said it, but I heard a quote once that said the democratically regulated free enterprise system is the worst, most unjust, most inefficient, most exploitive system on earth… except for all the other systems that have been tried!

Every utopian system attempted has fallen victim to overlooking an insurmountable catholic truth: ALL humanity is good, but fallen. That falleness means there is NOBODY pure enough to be entrusted with the power to squash the power abusers. Anybody put into that position BECOMES a power abuser worse than those he was supposed to squash.

Capitalism just needs to be molded a bit more. I like Chesterton’s thoughts on Distributism. Put regulations in place that tend to disadvantage huge conglomerates and give advantage to small business and sole propriatorships. Make system where hard work and productivity (not connections and financial manipulation) is rewarded and laziness is punished. Historically, America has been closest to that ideal of any nation with enough natural resources to sustain a major economy. Combine that with the fact that we were also the only such nation to escape WWII with an intact infrastructure and you have the explanation for this country’s prominence today.
 
Make system where hard work and productivity (not connections and financial manipulation) is rewarded and laziness is punished.
Click to expand...
That sounds very much like Calvinism. Where did Jesus teach us to punish the lazy?
Combine that with the fact that we were also the only such nation to escape WWII with an intact infrastructure and you have the explanation for this country’s prominence today.
Click to expand...
Simple geography. We were far too far away for any of our main infrastructure to be attacked in World War II. Moreover, we did not fight the brint of the war, especially the ground war. There is no great economic wisdom in that.

I’m not saying that capitalism is the root of all evil, but it is a terrible system and the Pope is right to point that out. Communism is equally terrible, especially given the historical evidence of cruelty and totalitarianism involved. Yet, I don’t see that the United States’ system is invariably better than many other western nations, especially in terms of equality and aid to the poor.
 
Scenario 1: Nation where the government has devised a system that properly and fairly distributes economic resources and all the people live in relative prosperity. The people are quite grateful to their form of government and the wisdom its leaders for the gifts they have recieved. The people are so grateful to their government and leaders that they don’t give gratitude to God. What merit is there in gaining all things in this world and losing eternal life?

Scenario 2: Nation where the government is corrupt, the people who control the economic resources distribute them unfairly and without regard to any sense of economic justice but only upon economic value contributed individuals. (Neither capitalism or socialism has any inherent promise that they will be an effective protection against this scenario). The people despise their government and those in economic power. But in their poverty of material things and exploitation they experience in their jobs they come to be grateful for their friends, family, and very lives that they live each day expressing gratitude to the God who made them, the God who Loves them perfectly, and the God who gives them comfort every day.

Capitalism being practiced by the corrupt is no more evil than Socialism practiced by the corrupt or selfish.

And the Pope is quite correct to point out that Capitalism in its nature does not embody the principles of our personal call to feed the hungry, shelter the homeless, etc… This is our call. Compassion by definition is not sympathy. The Samaritan didn’t express sympathy. He entered into and shared in the beaten man’s state. There is false compassion in seeing their call for bigger social welfare programs to meet the needs of the poor as fulfillment of their individual call to feed the hungry etc.

Capitalism or any economic system is not a substitute for our individual call to be Christ to the suffering. IMHO I believe that the new-found belief that the government is responsible for what Christ placed on us individually is the greatest single cause of the evil of the United States. If we had a true Christian concept of compassion (personally entering into suffering and personally coming to another’s aid), do you think we would have abortion the law of the land? Do you think our inner cities would be the havens for drug abuse, sexual abuse, and violence against God’s people that they are?
 
a_priori said:
VATICAN CITY - Benedict XVI criticizes the “cruelty” of capitalism and colonialism and the power of the wealthy over the poor in his first book as pope released on Friday.

Benedict began writing his personal meditation on Jesus Christ’s teachings, entitled “Jesus of Nazareth,” in 2003 when he was still Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger. He stressed that the book is an expression of his “personal search for the face of the Lord” and is by no means official Catholic Church doctrine.

“Everyone is free, then, to contradict me,” he wrote.

msnbc.msn.com/id/18094760/
Click to expand...
Our Holy Father is a very humble and intelligent man. I like the way he emphasized that this was his own opinion. I really love this man! He is a wonderful representative of God!!!
 
IMHO I believe that the new-found belief that the government is responsible for what Christ placed on us individually is the greatest single cause of the evil of the United States. If we had a true Christian concept of compassion (personally entering into suffering and personally coming to another’s aid), do you think we would have abortion the law of the land? Do you think our inner cities would be the havens for drug abuse, sexual abuse, and violence against God’s people that they are?
Click to expand...
On the contrary, I believe that rampant individualism and adherence to Calvinist ethics that are inherent in America’s version of capitalism are precisely the problem.

People have a selfish initial response in general. How does this (whatever it is) affect me?!? It is my conversion. The Church isn’t living up to my standards. She has loosened some of the traditions that I treasured. This might effect my wallet.

We need to be asking what we can do for our society. Those are our inner cities, our people abusing drugs, and having abortions. You know?

One reason I love the Church is because she still has churches in the inner city. She has Spanish Masses for the local Hispanic population in my area. She works hard to build a community that is worldwide and universal (by definition) as opposed to some Alexandrian temple with flashy video screens and stadium seating out by the Interstate.

(Wow, pardon the off topic rant 🙂 )
 
Vaclav said:
That sounds very much like Calvinism. Where did Jesus teach us to punish the lazy?

Simple geography. We were far too far away for any of our main infrastructure to be attacked in World War II. Moreover, we did not fight the brint of the war, especially the ground war. There is no great economic wisdom in that.

I’m not saying that capitalism is the root of all evil, but it is a terrible system and the Pope is right to point that out. Communism is equally terrible, especially given the historical evidence of cruelty and totalitarianism involved. Yet, I don’t see that the United States’ system is invariably better than many other western nations, especially in terms of equality and aid to the poor.
Click to expand...
First, I don’t think any capitalist wants to “punish” anybody, even the lazy. I do believe most capitalists want to avoid providing people with incentive to be lazy by paying them to do nothing.

Even so, most “poor” in this country own a car, tv and a home. I don’t know if there is a country on earth that can claim that their poor are as well off as America’s. Is there a disparity between the rich and poor in America? Sure. But capitalism has provided all in the US with their needs and for most, their wants as well.

Europe needs to take a serious, serious look at their socialist economic model. As their “baby boom” generation retires and goes onto socially provided benefits and the smaller generation (due to extremely low birth rates) that has followed isn’t able to replace them in the workforce, Europe will collapse economically. Period. Unless there is radical change, Europe will collapse at some point in the next 30 years due to their economic and social policies.
 
Vaclav said:
That sounds very much like Calvinism. Where did Jesus teach us to punish the lazy?
Click to expand...
And here is St. Paul on the subject

2 Thes 3:6-13
In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we command you, brothers, to keep away from every brother who is idle and does not live according to the tradition you received from us. For you yourselves know how you ought to follow our example. We were not idle when we were with you, nor did we eat anyone’s food without paying for it. On the contrary, we worked night and day, laboring and toiling so that we would not be a burden to any of you. We did this, not because we do not have the right to such help, but in order to make ourselves a model for you to follow. **For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: “If a man will not work, he shall not eat.” **
Click to expand...
We hear that some among you are idle. They are not busy; they are busybodies. Such people we command and urge in the Lord Jesus Christ to settle down and earn the bread they eat.
Click to expand...
 
And I still see no where that Jesus calls us to punish the lazy, which is what manualman explicitly stated.

Even Paul, in Brendan’s example says: “Such people we command and urge in the Lord Jesus Christ to settle down and earn the bread they eat.” There is no punishment demanded there.

Perhaps you all should read Max Weber’s book on The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism and how Calvinism saw laziness, beggary, and poverty as an affront to God. If one wasn’t working, then one wasn’t gloifying God.
 
Vaclav said:
On the contrary, I believe that rampant individualism and adherence to Calvinist ethics that are inherent in America’s version of capitalism are precisely the problem.

People have a selfish initial response in general. How does this (whatever it is) affect me?!? It is my conversion. The Church isn’t living up to my standards. She has loosened some of the traditions that I treasured. This might effect my wallet.

We need to be asking what we can do for our society. Those are our inner cities, our people abusing drugs, and having abortions. You know?

One reason I love the Church is because she still has churches in the inner city. She has Spanish Masses for the local Hispanic population in my area. She works hard to build a community that is worldwide and universal (by definition) as opposed to some Alexandrian temple with flashy video screens and stadium seating out by the Interstate.

(Wow, pardon the off topic rant 🙂 )
Click to expand...
I generally agree w/ everything you say after the first sentence.

First, Capitalism is an economic system for the production and distribution of goods, services, labor and capital. Individualism is an **all-encompassing **political philosophy in which the individual is supreme relative to the collective. While capitalism requires elements of freedom of the individual (especially with regard to free choice with regard to the individuals rights on the use of the fruits of their individual labor), it doesn’t depend on unbridled personal freedom to trounce on collective cultural mores. If you were to read the great capitalist philosophers (Friedman, Hayek, Smith), capitalism and these writers abhor the abuses of individualism to which you are rightly opposed.

I myself am not sure I know if there is a universal concept of “Calvinist ethics”. Puritan ethics and many forms of “free personal expression” claim to be from the root of Calvin.

With regard to your books on “The Protestant Ethic” et. al., the problem is not with regard to the economic system but how he justifies it in light of his prism of humanity which is directly contrary to my view and the view of the Church. While Mein Kampf was a manifesto to Socialism, the problem with the book is less about any problems of socialism than it is about problems of the author’s perverted view of humanity.

P.S. I love your name. Mr. Havel is a great citizen of this world. He staired evil in the face and wasn’t afraid.
 
Vaclav said:
On the contrary, I believe that rampant individualism and adherence to Calvinist ethics that are inherent in America’s version of capitalism are precisely the problem.

People have a selfish initial response in general. How does this (whatever it is) affect me?!? It is my conversion. The Church isn’t living up to my standards. She has loosened some of the traditions that I treasured. This might effect my wallet.

We need to be asking what we can do for our society. Those are our inner cities, our people abusing drugs, and having abortions. You know?

One reason I love the Church is because she still has churches in the inner city. She has Spanish Masses for the local Hispanic population in my area. She works hard to build a community that is worldwide and universal (by definition) as opposed to some Alexandrian temple with flashy video screens and stadium seating out by the Interstate.

(Wow, pardon the off topic rant 🙂 )
Click to expand...
Actually, Americans are known to volunteer time and money at a higher level than people of other nations, to help the less fortunate people in our communities. We also give more on an international level.America does have a strong moral conscience, it turns out.
 
catholicbuckeye said:
First, I don’t think any capitalist wants to “punish” anybody, even the lazy. I do believe most capitalists want to avoid providing people with incentive to be lazy by paying them to do nothing.

Even so, most “poor” in this country own a car, tv and a home. I don’t know if there is a country on earth that can claim that their poor are as well off as America’s. Is there a disparity between the rich and poor in America? Sure. But capitalism has provided all in the US with their needs and for most, their wants as well.
.
Click to expand...
It is a shame that we are a nation who claims what you have claimed and have claimed much more and children live like this:

aliciapatterson.org/APF0803/Shames/Shames.html
 
catholicbuckeye said:
Even so, most “poor” in this country own a car, tv and a home. I don’t know if there is a country on earth that can claim that their poor are as well off as America’s. Is there a disparity between the rich and poor in America? Sure. But capitalism has provided all in the US with their needs and for most, their wants as well.
Click to expand...
I’m not sure what poor people you have been hanging out with, but there are many for whom what you have said is a cruel mockery.

For one thing, you surely didn’t mean to claim that most poor people in this country own their own homes? I would be extremely surprised if that were the case. I will grant that a majority of people under the official poverty line probably own a car, but there are still very many who do not (and one of the problems with the U.S. is precisely that the infrastructure is built assuming car ownership, so that poor people have to put themselves in debt in order to have a car and so keep a job, and once they lose their car they often fall into a cycle of poverty they can’t get out of). The TV I’ll grant you!
Europe needs to take a serious, serious look at their socialist economic model. As their “baby boom” generation retires and goes onto socially provided benefits and the smaller generation (due to extremely low birth rates) that has followed isn’t able to replace them in the workforce, Europe will collapse economically. Period. Unless there is radical change, Europe will collapse at some point in the next 30 years due to their economic and social policies.
Click to expand...
Even if this is true, this is in no sense a moral or religious argument. It’s pure pragmatism.

Edwin
 
Vaclav said:
Perhaps you all should read Max Weber’s book on The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism and how Calvinism saw laziness, beggary, and poverty as an affront to God. If one wasn’t working, then one wasn’t gloifying God.
Click to expand...
That’s very true, though some of Weber’s stronger claims are dubious at best. He focused on one strand of Puritan thought (he admitted by the way that Calvin was not a “Calvinist” in the sense he was defining the term) that talked about divine Providence and God’s reward of those who do well, and ignored the strand that talked about God’s testing of the godly and the importance of taking up one’s cross and following Christ.

Edwin
 
levi86 said:
Do you have a particular issue with what The Pope has said?
Click to expand...
Not necessarily. The issue doesn’t lend itself to yes or no answers concerning the appropriateness of capitalism. In its unrestrained, starkley Darwinian form, it can be very destructive. It also has brought affluence to large numbers of people.

In America we tend to think that everyone needs overnight universal suffrage and free markets. History has shown that the “one size fits all” approach can have very negative consequences.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top