B
believers
Guest
You do realize that this verse refers to perfect love towards not just your friends and family but enemies too?
- Status
E
estesbob
Guest
He woud only ask those who had rejected his Church.
B
believers
Guest
Anyway, would you care to answer this question? I’m really interested in an answer from a member of the “one true Church” since we non-Catholics do not possess the full truth. You will kneel before our Lord one day and give an account. So I’m just curious how you’ll answer.
Mat 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
L
lavazza
Guest
graceful4mercy,
Who says, i have to pray to mary to get into heaven? did jesus say that?
Who says, i have to pray to mary to get into heaven? did jesus say that?
G
Grateful4mercy
Guest
Nobody has ever said that. I already made that point, I thought, but you ignored it and re-stated your faulty assertion. I was simply giving in and letting you win your strawman argument.
Nowhere in the entire catechism does it say you HAVE to pray to Mary for anything. I’m guessing by your self described age that you have probably not run into the new catechism (first printed in 1995 I believe) You really should read it through. It is a moving work of beauty second only to Holy Scripture itself. All of your questions are answered there.
usccb.org/catechism/text/
L
lavazza
Guest
this is suppose to be a give and take forum too?
L
lavazza
Guest
i do not believe we are the one true church. i am catholic, but there are many good people and good ministers and pastors out there, from many other denominations.
S
St_Violet
Guest
are you saying that all protestant churches have truth because there are good people?
T
Tantum_ergo
Guest
Lav, you are really pushing it here.
Either you are Catholic–and that means you adhere to all the beliefs, not to a ‘pick and choose’ bit --or you are somebody who ‘calls’ himself Catholic but for all intents and purposes is truly Prostestant.
Do you think that when you start disagreeing with Church teaching in favor of ‘your own interpretation’ which, let me tell you, is not ‘your interpretation’ but rather your choice to listen to somebody OTHER than the Church–that you can still claim to be in full standing?
By your own admission on other threads, you were (if you are not still) in an invalid marriage, possibly receiving sacraments invalidly until now when you supposedly are too ill to see a priest, and, having not been to confession, most probably in mortal sin. . .
yet you feel that considering all you have already done against Church teaching you are still qualified not only to ignore its teaching in your personal case, but to attempt to bring others along with you to flout the Church as well?
Haven’t you learned, or remembered, that one sin leads to another?
All your ‘education’ has left you is personal rebellion against various aspects of Church teaching which you are attempting to justify by saying the teachings are wrong. That ‘you’ and others who disobey are really, if not ‘right’, well, okay with it because God ‘understands’? It’s all ‘relative’? There isn’t ‘one true church’, it’s just ‘individuals’ and they can be saved any old way–except apparently the Catholic way.
You appear to be willing to accept just about any interpretation that still says it ‘is of Jesus’–except the one, true, original Catholic faith you say you were raised in.
Either you are Catholic–and that means you adhere to all the beliefs, not to a ‘pick and choose’ bit --or you are somebody who ‘calls’ himself Catholic but for all intents and purposes is truly Prostestant.
Do you think that when you start disagreeing with Church teaching in favor of ‘your own interpretation’ which, let me tell you, is not ‘your interpretation’ but rather your choice to listen to somebody OTHER than the Church–that you can still claim to be in full standing?
By your own admission on other threads, you were (if you are not still) in an invalid marriage, possibly receiving sacraments invalidly until now when you supposedly are too ill to see a priest, and, having not been to confession, most probably in mortal sin. . .
yet you feel that considering all you have already done against Church teaching you are still qualified not only to ignore its teaching in your personal case, but to attempt to bring others along with you to flout the Church as well?
Haven’t you learned, or remembered, that one sin leads to another?
All your ‘education’ has left you is personal rebellion against various aspects of Church teaching which you are attempting to justify by saying the teachings are wrong. That ‘you’ and others who disobey are really, if not ‘right’, well, okay with it because God ‘understands’? It’s all ‘relative’? There isn’t ‘one true church’, it’s just ‘individuals’ and they can be saved any old way–except apparently the Catholic way.
You appear to be willing to accept just about any interpretation that still says it ‘is of Jesus’–except the one, true, original Catholic faith you say you were raised in.
G
Grateful4mercy
Guest
AMEN! I agree with you 100% that there are fantastic people leading very holy churches (some actually belong to this forum, praise be to God) and I truly believe they have something to teach us all. I just don’t think we have to degrade the RCC in order to say that.
L
lavazza
Guest
i am saying jesus does not care what church you belong too.
As long as you believe in him, have faith and trust in his word, it does not matter.
As long as you believe in him, have faith and trust in his word, it does not matter.
L
lavazza
Guest
i am a catholic.I was baptized a catholic, That does not mean, i must believe every word or action our chuch stands for. Should i be happy with all the people we killed in gods name? god has given me free wiil you use. many things our church has done in the past and present are not very christian like. becauce i question these things, That makesme a bad catholic? i think not.
T
Tantum_ergo
Guest
Lav, what exactly do you ‘condemn’ the Church for?
What exactly do you question?
You appear to question everything from the Church’s teachings on its being the one true holy catholic and apostolic church, to its teachings on Mary, the saints, what is necessary for salvation, its teachings on divorce, on confession, its history, and even its traditions.
Maybe it would quicker to ask, as a “Catholic”, exactly what Church teachings DO you agree with and follow???
Because right now, from where I stand, you don’t really appear to practice anything Catholic at all.
What exactly do you question?
You appear to question everything from the Church’s teachings on its being the one true holy catholic and apostolic church, to its teachings on Mary, the saints, what is necessary for salvation, its teachings on divorce, on confession, its history, and even its traditions.
Maybe it would quicker to ask, as a “Catholic”, exactly what Church teachings DO you agree with and follow???
Because right now, from where I stand, you don’t really appear to practice anything Catholic at all.
L
lavazza
Guest
i believe in many things our church stands for, but at the same time i disagree with somethings too. I do not like saying we are the only true church. Are you saying the eastern churchs are not the true church also? They can prove a line of succession back to the apostles. That sounds very arrogant to me.I have problems with making mary a main pillar of our church, I also resent the fact of all the money our church has, yet i do not see it helping the poor. I believe in our pope, and sacrements etc.
G
Grateful4mercy
Guest
Let me help answer a couple of these.
stones::glass houses
No, but out of respect for those of us that do could you start putting ex- in front of it when you say that?
no, but you should respect those who were killed for being catholic, dont you think? I’m also curious if you are ok with the killing of millions of ‘heathens’ done by Protestants in the Americas? Burning of witches? Cool with that too? How about slavery?
stones::glass houses
Free will was not given to you for illicit use against Christ’s only Church. Be mindful of the weapon you wield, many will see you claim to be a protesting Catholic and will use it against us. That, my friend, DOES make you a ‘bad catholic’. You cause scandal and the suffering of the innocent that you have no right to cause. Some day my 2 year old will have to answer to the accusations you are bringing against your own church. If Catholicism is not for you that is fine. Step out of line and join the protestants.
P
Philthy
Guest
Professing to be Catholic requires that you place Church teaching above your personal opinions. When you choose to “disagree” with the Church (which is different than saying you "dont understand why they teach X or Y) your are choosing to be practicing something other than Catholicism. It never ceases to amaze me how many people who claim to be Catholic simply reject what the Church teaches out of personal preference and then wish to still be called Catholic. Call yourself whatever you want, but if you want to be Catholic you will need to submit to the authority of the Church. It’s very simple.
That is compelling. Honestly, though, no one likes to have to say that. It is no different than having to say to a non-Christian that Christ is the only way to Heaven. We dont like to have to say that because it is controversial. Christ specifically says that whoever denies me I will deny before the Father. The discomfort of having to say it does not, however, change the truth of it.
If you dont see the Church helping the poor it is not because the Church is not helping the poor, it is because you have your eyes closed.
L
lavazza
Guest
Grateful4mercy,
i disagree with all killing. One of the thngs that does make me proud of being a catholic is our stance on abortion. i will stay in our church and questions things i feel is wrong, in my view. i will not just follow everything like a blind sheep. If you approve of that form of leadership, then i believe communism, and fascism is to you liking too? there are many diffrent catholics, with diffrent views. that does not make us bad catholics.
i disagree with all killing. One of the thngs that does make me proud of being a catholic is our stance on abortion. i will stay in our church and questions things i feel is wrong, in my view. i will not just follow everything like a blind sheep. If you approve of that form of leadership, then i believe communism, and fascism is to you liking too? there are many diffrent catholics, with diffrent views. that does not make us bad catholics.
R
Ravyn_Guiliani
Guest
part 1 of 2—
excellent article:
Vatican document does not diminish other faiths, states doctrine congregation chief
By Dan Morris-Young
7/19/2007
Catholic San Francisco (www.catholic-sf.org)
SAN FRANCISCO, Calif. (Catholic San Francisco) - The recent Vatican document emphasizing that only the Catholic Church possesses the “fullness” of the means for salvation was created primarily as an instructional tool for Catholics and should not be read as a diminishing of other faith communities, according to the churchman who signed it.
On the contrary, said Cardinal William J. Levada, who heads the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (CDF) which issued the document July 10, the narrative itself points out that “outside the Catholic Church elements of holiness and truth do exist and that the Holy Spirit is working in those other communities and churches as well.”
During a July 17 interview while visiting the San Francisco Bay Area, Cardinal Levada commented on his congregation’s work, Pope Benedict XVI’s recent instruction on the Tridentine Latin Mass, themes of the young papacy, and challenges facing the universal Church today.
The cardinal was quick to describe as “purely coincidental” the fact that his congregation’s document on the nature of the Church was made public only three days after the pope’s announcement of his decision to allow broader use of the Tridentine liturgical rite.
Many commentaries have linked the two. “”Many have tried to see it as some kind of one-two punch,” Cardinal Levada laughed, “but the truth is that it is simply a coincidence that they were published in such proximity.”
In restoring easier access “to the principal way of worship in the Church for more than 400 years,” the pontiff “expressed a great generosity” toward persons intensely devoted to the Tridentine Latin Mass, the cardinal said.
The papal directive “was not primarily aimed at the United States,” he said, adding that he feels it will have more impact in France, Germany and Switzerland and little effect in Latin America or Italy.
Turning to the doctrinal congregation’s recent commentary, “Responses to Some Questions Regarding Certain Aspects of the Doctrine on the Church,” the cardinal said it grew out of extensive conversation and collaboration with theological consultants to the CDF and others, as well as a broad review of published materials.
The document addresses five questions about the nature of the Church “and all five are a commentary on Vatican II documents,” the cardinal said, adding, “It has the advantage of collecting all that has happened since Vatican II up to the present time” and explaining how Church articulation of its own nature as well as its views of other Christian communities have developed.
He said he has been “somewhat surprised” at the amount of “ecumenical commentary” the document has generated. “It is primarily a document addressed to Catholics as believers and teachers and is intended to clarify the teachings of the Second Vatican Council,” he said, “especially the teaching on the nature of the Church.”
That teaching, he said, has been skewed by those who argue “that the Church of Christ can subsist in churches outside the Catholic Church, but that is not the case.”
Response to the CDF statement “has shown how much that is misunderstood,” he said. “Even many Catholics are fuzzy on it.”
“That is not to say that we deny that the Holy Spirit who guides the Church is also working with his gifts of grace and truth in those other communities and churches,” he said.
Recalling the heady days of the 1962-65 Vatican Council, Cardinal Levada said there was “a certain novelty” created by the council’s exhortations for Catholics “to see the Holy Spirit at work” in Christian denominations outside the Catholic Church, especially in view of what had been “almost a stance of hostility and opposition” to the non-Catholic religious world for some time.
“It was quite a striking insight to see recognized in official Catholic teaching that outside the Catholic Church there are elements of holiness and truth” in other congregations, he said.
Reaction to the document on the Church’s nature in the United States where many religious persuasions exist side by side clearly reflects the nation’s “egalitarian approach to society and therefore to churches,” he said, “where for you to say that your church is the one true church of Christ, and that another’s is not quite, is considered not to be the American way.”
cont.
excellent article:
Vatican document does not diminish other faiths, states doctrine congregation chief
By Dan Morris-Young
7/19/2007
Catholic San Francisco (www.catholic-sf.org)
SAN FRANCISCO, Calif. (Catholic San Francisco) - The recent Vatican document emphasizing that only the Catholic Church possesses the “fullness” of the means for salvation was created primarily as an instructional tool for Catholics and should not be read as a diminishing of other faith communities, according to the churchman who signed it.
On the contrary, said Cardinal William J. Levada, who heads the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (CDF) which issued the document July 10, the narrative itself points out that “outside the Catholic Church elements of holiness and truth do exist and that the Holy Spirit is working in those other communities and churches as well.”
During a July 17 interview while visiting the San Francisco Bay Area, Cardinal Levada commented on his congregation’s work, Pope Benedict XVI’s recent instruction on the Tridentine Latin Mass, themes of the young papacy, and challenges facing the universal Church today.
The cardinal was quick to describe as “purely coincidental” the fact that his congregation’s document on the nature of the Church was made public only three days after the pope’s announcement of his decision to allow broader use of the Tridentine liturgical rite.
Many commentaries have linked the two. “”Many have tried to see it as some kind of one-two punch,” Cardinal Levada laughed, “but the truth is that it is simply a coincidence that they were published in such proximity.”
In restoring easier access “to the principal way of worship in the Church for more than 400 years,” the pontiff “expressed a great generosity” toward persons intensely devoted to the Tridentine Latin Mass, the cardinal said.
The papal directive “was not primarily aimed at the United States,” he said, adding that he feels it will have more impact in France, Germany and Switzerland and little effect in Latin America or Italy.
Turning to the doctrinal congregation’s recent commentary, “Responses to Some Questions Regarding Certain Aspects of the Doctrine on the Church,” the cardinal said it grew out of extensive conversation and collaboration with theological consultants to the CDF and others, as well as a broad review of published materials.
The document addresses five questions about the nature of the Church “and all five are a commentary on Vatican II documents,” the cardinal said, adding, “It has the advantage of collecting all that has happened since Vatican II up to the present time” and explaining how Church articulation of its own nature as well as its views of other Christian communities have developed.
He said he has been “somewhat surprised” at the amount of “ecumenical commentary” the document has generated. “It is primarily a document addressed to Catholics as believers and teachers and is intended to clarify the teachings of the Second Vatican Council,” he said, “especially the teaching on the nature of the Church.”
That teaching, he said, has been skewed by those who argue “that the Church of Christ can subsist in churches outside the Catholic Church, but that is not the case.”
Response to the CDF statement “has shown how much that is misunderstood,” he said. “Even many Catholics are fuzzy on it.”
“That is not to say that we deny that the Holy Spirit who guides the Church is also working with his gifts of grace and truth in those other communities and churches,” he said.
Recalling the heady days of the 1962-65 Vatican Council, Cardinal Levada said there was “a certain novelty” created by the council’s exhortations for Catholics “to see the Holy Spirit at work” in Christian denominations outside the Catholic Church, especially in view of what had been “almost a stance of hostility and opposition” to the non-Catholic religious world for some time.
“It was quite a striking insight to see recognized in official Catholic teaching that outside the Catholic Church there are elements of holiness and truth” in other congregations, he said.
Reaction to the document on the Church’s nature in the United States where many religious persuasions exist side by side clearly reflects the nation’s “egalitarian approach to society and therefore to churches,” he said, “where for you to say that your church is the one true church of Christ, and that another’s is not quite, is considered not to be the American way.”
cont.
R
Ravyn_Guiliani
Guest
part 2 of 2–
“Being an American,” he continued, “I am sympathetic to that. We get along by saying, ‘You have your ideas and I have mine, and while we might not agree we can explain ourselves, and we can be friends even if we are not in agreement on every thing.’”
“Underlying a typical American idea of what a church is,” he said, “is the idea that we are the ones who make the Church, we create the Church. There is the slogan, ‘We are the Church.’ And, of course, there is the sense of the Church being made up of all the baptized. But we do not make the Church. God makes the Church. We receive the Church as a gift. And we receive the elements of grace and holiness and truth from God as a gift. They are part of God’s revelation.”
While “anyone in this country can hang up a shingle and say, ‘This is the Church of God on Post Street,’ for example,” he said, “the Catholic view is that the Church is not our creation. It’s a gift from God. And we have to accept that gift. We have to accept the elements of that gift. Take the Eucharist, for example. Not optional. Apostolic succession is not optional.”
“We don’t decide what it means to be a disciple of Jesus,” he said. “Jesus first laid down what his disciples should be and how they should follow him.”
He said the CDF document could be “very helpful to Catholics in the United States who are culturally conditioned” to accepting self-organized groups of worshippers as “churches”.
“It seems to me that the ecumenical vision of some is: ‘Well, we are all searching for one great united church that is still yet to be found.’ Catholic teaching is: Christ’s Church has never disappeared. It has been fragmented, wounded, broken apart but it has not disappeared,” he said, then added, “It is not that Catholics should be proud of being members of this Church. It is not because we are good that we receive the gift of Church. It’s God’s gift. And it is a gift that we very willingly hope to be able to share one day with everybody.”
In its emphasis on Vatican II teaching, the CDF document was in step with what Cardinal Levada said is one of the clear themes of Pope Benedict XVI’s papacy -underlining that the Council represents a continuity of Church life, not a point of discontinuity.
At the time of Vatican II, there was a temptation and a tendency to place Church practices and teachings in pre-conciliar and post-conciliar “baskets,” he said. “I know I did it. There was a kind of ‘throw this out, here’s the new stuff’. I think many of us regret that. ”
Describing Pope Benedict as “a very God-centered man,” Cardinal Levada said the pope “wants us to see the beauty of God’s handiwork. I think his encyclical letter ‘Deus Caritas Est,’ God is Love, is a great example of that.”
Cardinal Levada said the pontiff “wants us to understand that God is not remote. That is the whole point of the Incarnation of Christ.”
The doctrinal congregation head praised Pope Benedict’s preaching and teaching skills. “On Sundays St. Peter’s Square is almost full of people just to hear him talk for about five minutes… and then pray the Angelus. He is extraordinary, and we are learning a lot about him.”
Interestingly, Cardinal Levada said, “I am quite confident that he never expected to be pope. And so he is learning how to be pope. But he is a quick study and of course had so much experience at the side of John Paul II. I think you can say he represents a great gift of God to us at this time.”
Challenges facing the universal Church include “the disconnect between faith and reason in the modern world” cited by the pope in his address in Regensburg, Germany last November, Cardinal Levada said. He said the pope “rightly identified as a very significant challenge” a growing view that modern civilization “makes religion no longer necessary, or some would say, even possible.”
Another challenge, he said, is to infuse “into the body politic” an active “love of neighbor and the service we are called to give each other” by Christ to address global issues of war, starvation and disease. The pope, he said, “often returns to this theme” and exhorts Christians “to use our human ingenuity and creativity to overcome these evils.”
catholic.org/printer_friendly.php?id=24767§ion=Cathcom
“Being an American,” he continued, “I am sympathetic to that. We get along by saying, ‘You have your ideas and I have mine, and while we might not agree we can explain ourselves, and we can be friends even if we are not in agreement on every thing.’”
“Underlying a typical American idea of what a church is,” he said, “is the idea that we are the ones who make the Church, we create the Church. There is the slogan, ‘We are the Church.’ And, of course, there is the sense of the Church being made up of all the baptized. But we do not make the Church. God makes the Church. We receive the Church as a gift. And we receive the elements of grace and holiness and truth from God as a gift. They are part of God’s revelation.”
While “anyone in this country can hang up a shingle and say, ‘This is the Church of God on Post Street,’ for example,” he said, “the Catholic view is that the Church is not our creation. It’s a gift from God. And we have to accept that gift. We have to accept the elements of that gift. Take the Eucharist, for example. Not optional. Apostolic succession is not optional.”
“We don’t decide what it means to be a disciple of Jesus,” he said. “Jesus first laid down what his disciples should be and how they should follow him.”
He said the CDF document could be “very helpful to Catholics in the United States who are culturally conditioned” to accepting self-organized groups of worshippers as “churches”.
“It seems to me that the ecumenical vision of some is: ‘Well, we are all searching for one great united church that is still yet to be found.’ Catholic teaching is: Christ’s Church has never disappeared. It has been fragmented, wounded, broken apart but it has not disappeared,” he said, then added, “It is not that Catholics should be proud of being members of this Church. It is not because we are good that we receive the gift of Church. It’s God’s gift. And it is a gift that we very willingly hope to be able to share one day with everybody.”
In its emphasis on Vatican II teaching, the CDF document was in step with what Cardinal Levada said is one of the clear themes of Pope Benedict XVI’s papacy -underlining that the Council represents a continuity of Church life, not a point of discontinuity.
At the time of Vatican II, there was a temptation and a tendency to place Church practices and teachings in pre-conciliar and post-conciliar “baskets,” he said. “I know I did it. There was a kind of ‘throw this out, here’s the new stuff’. I think many of us regret that. ”
Describing Pope Benedict as “a very God-centered man,” Cardinal Levada said the pope “wants us to see the beauty of God’s handiwork. I think his encyclical letter ‘Deus Caritas Est,’ God is Love, is a great example of that.”
Cardinal Levada said the pontiff “wants us to understand that God is not remote. That is the whole point of the Incarnation of Christ.”
The doctrinal congregation head praised Pope Benedict’s preaching and teaching skills. “On Sundays St. Peter’s Square is almost full of people just to hear him talk for about five minutes… and then pray the Angelus. He is extraordinary, and we are learning a lot about him.”
Interestingly, Cardinal Levada said, “I am quite confident that he never expected to be pope. And so he is learning how to be pope. But he is a quick study and of course had so much experience at the side of John Paul II. I think you can say he represents a great gift of God to us at this time.”
Challenges facing the universal Church include “the disconnect between faith and reason in the modern world” cited by the pope in his address in Regensburg, Germany last November, Cardinal Levada said. He said the pope “rightly identified as a very significant challenge” a growing view that modern civilization “makes religion no longer necessary, or some would say, even possible.”
Another challenge, he said, is to infuse “into the body politic” an active “love of neighbor and the service we are called to give each other” by Christ to address global issues of war, starvation and disease. The pope, he said, “often returns to this theme” and exhorts Christians “to use our human ingenuity and creativity to overcome these evils.”
catholic.org/printer_friendly.php?id=24767§ion=Cathcom
Code:
I am a Christian. --Matthew 28: 18-20. History proves the Church He was talking to became known as the Catholic Church with the See of St. Peter in Rome - He did not say He would support schism or reform or protest , He said He would be with THIS Church until the End. I do NOT believe in Bible Alone (Sola Scriptura), I DO believe in God's Word alone. 2Thessalonians 2:15, Matthew 4:4 -God's Word is Scripture, Tradition and the Magisterium of the Church as directed by the Holy Spirit. I believe in Apostolic authority and succession; and the Real Presence in the Eucharist.-- I am a Roman Catholic.
L
lavazza
Guest
Ravyn_Guiliani,
That makes sense to me. thanks for that article. I could not believe our church could be that egotist.
Thanks.
That makes sense to me. thanks for that article. I could not believe our church could be that egotist.
Thanks.
- Status