Pope Declares-Non Catholics Do Not Possess the Full Truth

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Do you have any Scripture to quote Him doing so? Chapter and Verse, please? (I’m ignorant of it; please help me out!) 🙂
In case you haven’t yet seen it here is a Catholic Answers article on Purgatory.

catholic.com/library/Purgatory.asp

BTW the Bible is not a comprehensive presentation of everything Jesus or the Apostles said and did. It makes no claim to be. In fact, it is pointedly said there that if everything Jesus said were written down the world would be unable to contain the material.
 
BTW the Bible is not a comprehensive presentation of everything Jesus or the Apostles said and did. It makes no claim to be. In fact, it is pointedly said there that if everything Jesus said were written down the world would be unable to contain the material.
John 21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

John 20:30 Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book.

Mark 4:33 With many such parables he spoke the word to them . . .
Yet none of these other parables are recorded in scripture

Mark 6:34 . . . he began to teach them many things.
None of these “many things” are recorded.

John 16:12 I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.
Perhaps these many things were spoken during His post-Resurrection appearances alluded to in Acts 1:2-8

Acts 1:3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:
Once again Christs words are not recorded
 
Do you have any Scripture to quote Him doing so? Chapter and Verse, please? (I’m ignorant of it; please help me out!) 🙂
I’m not sure I understand the question. Are you asking for chapter and verse showing that purgatory is a Jewish belief? Or are you asking for a Scripture verse showing Him teaching other clarification? On teaching clarification John 6 comes to mind in huge way. If the question is chapter and verse on Jesus preaching on Jewish belief in Purgatory, it doesn’t need to be there. If it was understood correctly by everyone He is speaking to, there is no need to preach on it.

Please let me know. If it is a question about Him teaching clarification, then there are Scripture references galore.
 
I’m not sure I understand the question. Are you asking for chapter and verse showing that purgatory is a Jewish belief? Or are you asking for a Scripture verse showing Him teaching other clarification? On teaching clarification John 6 comes to mind in huge way. If the question is chapter and verse on Jesus preaching on Jewish belief in Purgatory, it doesn’t need to be there. If it was understood correctly by everyone He is speaking to, there is no need to preach on it.

Please let me know. If it is a question about Him teaching clarification, then there are Scripture references galore.
You asserted that Jesus taught on Purgatory. I merely asked for chapter/verse showing where he had done so. The Jewish concept of Sheol (the Grave) is NOT the same as Purgatory.

If this concept was understood at the time of Christ due to doctrines that were not included in Scripture, by all means, please inform me where I can read up on them. Did Josephus mention them? Another Jewish (or even non-Jewish) historian?

Looks for the evidence
 
John 21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

John 20:30 Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book.

Mark 4:33 With many such parables he spoke the word to them . . .
Yet none of these other parables are recorded in scripture

Mark 6:34 . . . he began to teach them many things.
None of these “many things” are recorded.

John 16:12 I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.
Perhaps these many things were spoken during His post-Resurrection appearances alluded to in Acts 1:2-8

Acts 1:3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:
Once again Christs words are not recorded
None of these verses state categorically that Jesus taught about the existence/reality of Purgatory. I allow that neither of us know WHAT he taught, and that it is POSSIBLE…But this is not proof, merely an appeal to a mystery (with the assumption that we know what the mystery really was, when we do not).
 
You asserted that Jesus taught on Purgatory. I merely asked for chapter/verse showing where he had done so. The Jewish concept of Sheol (the Grave) is NOT the same as Purgatory.

If this concept was understood at the time of Christ due to doctrines that were not included in Scripture, by all means, please inform me where I can read up on them. Did Josephus mention them? Another Jewish (or even non-Jewish) historian?

Looks for the evidence
I have reread my posts just to be sure. I don’t see where I asserted that Jesus taught on Purgatory. I said in the Scripture of 2 Maccabees it was a belief of the Jews of His time and place.

There are Scriptural references to Purgatory in the link from Allweather (both OT and NT.) In Matthew Jesus is reiterating the belief, but not actually teaching on it. Perhaps I am sending the wrong message to you. I was pointing out that removing the book 2 Macc from the Protestant Bible has led some into confusion.

My pregnant brain seems to be misunderstanding what it is you are looking for. It sounds like you are saying that because that book of Scripture is not in the Protestant Bible that it was not part of Jewish teaching. It seems like you are looking for a direct reference in the Gospels showing Jesus teaching an already understood Truth.

My original point on the importance of the fullness of Scripture has been lost. Since I seem to be causing confusion I will step aside and let others help in your questions.
 
We already know, from the pages of the Bible itself, that only a small part of the sayings and doings of Jesus are recorded there. The remainder was left for the Apostles and disciples in the form of oral histories, which form a large body of Sacred Tradition.

If Jesus had nothing explicit to say about Purgatory, that doesn’t mean that he never taught on the subject.

The fact that Purgatory has been a firm teaching of the Catholic Church from the earliest times strongly suggests that it was passed on from Jesus to the Apostles, who passed it on to their successors.
 
The fact that Purgatory has been a firm teaching of the Catholic Church from the earliest times strongly suggests that it was passed on from Jesus to the Apostles, who passed it on to their successors.
Earliest times? Okay…how early? Who’s the earliest Church Father that mentions it? Can you quote them doing so?

interested
 
I have reread my posts just to be sure. I don’t see where I asserted that Jesus taught on Purgatory. I said in the Scripture of 2 Maccabees it was a belief of the Jews of His time and place.
I misunderstood the last paragraph of your post #489. My bad… :o
 
My pregnant brain seems to be misunderstanding what it is you are looking for. It sounds like you are saying that because that book of Scripture is not in the Protestant Bible that it was not part of Jewish teaching. It seems like you are looking for a direct reference in the Gospels showing Jesus teaching an already understood Truth.

My original point on the importance of the fullness of Scripture has been lost. Since I seem to be causing confusion I will step aside and let others help in your questions.
My nursing brain (and blonde head) cause quite enough confusion here, Little Deb! No worries! I just misunderstood something I thought YOU had said.

Obviously, there is no mention of Purgatory by Jesus in the 4 gospels. But you had mentioned 2 Macc, and I wondered if that was the only other ancient church-related book/manuscript that had Jesus teaching (or believing in) the concept of Purgatory.

Thanks! Sorry for being unclear…

–D <><
 
The fact that Purgatory has been a firm teaching of the Catholic Church from the earliest times strongly suggests that it was passed on from Jesus to the Apostles, who passed it on to their successors.
Earliest times? Okay…how early? Who’s the earliest Church Father that mentions it? Can you quote them doing so?

interested
 
Earliest times? Okay…how early? Who’s the earliest Church Father that mentions it? Can you quote them doing so?

interested
Here’s a few:

scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html#tradition-I
“And after the exhibition, Tryphaena again receives her. For her daughter Falconilla had died, and said to her in a dream: Mother, thou shaft have this stranger Thecla in my place, in order that she may pray concerning me, and that I may be transferred to the place of the just.” Acts of Paul and Thecla (A.D. 160).
“Abercius by name, I am a disciple of the chaste shepherd…He taught me…faithful writings…These words, I, Abercius, standing by, ordered to be inscribed. In truth, I was in the course of my seventy-second year. Let him who understands and believes this pray fro Abercius.” *Inscription of Abercius (A.D. 190). *
“Without delay, on that very night, this was shown to me in a vision. I saw Dinocrates going out from a gloomy place, where also there were several others, and he was parched and very thirsty, with a filthy countenance and pallid colour, and the wound on his face which he had when he died. This Dinocrates had been my brother after the flesh, seven years of age? Who died miserably with disease…But I trusted that my prayer would bring help to his suffering; and I prayed for him every day until we passed over into the prison of the camp, for we were to fight in the camp-show. Then was the birth-day of Gets Caesar, and I made my prayer for my brother day and night, groaning and weeping that he might be granted to me. Then, on the day on which we remained in fetters, this was shown to me. I saw that that place which I had formerly observed to be in gloom was now bright; and Dinocrates, with a clean body well clad, was finding refreshment. And where there had been a wound, I saw a scar; and that pool which I had before seen, I saw now with its margin lowered even to the boy’s navel. And one drew water from the pool incessantly, and upon its brink was a goblet filled with water; and Dinocrates drew near and began to drink from it, and the goblet did not fail. And when he was satisfied, he went away from the water to play joyously, after the manner of children, and I awoke. Then I understood that he was translated from the place of punishment.” *The Passion of Perpetua and Felicitias, 2:3-4 (A.D. 202). *
“Accordingly the believer, through great discipline, divesting himself of the passions, passes to the mansion which is better than the former one, viz., to the greatest torment, taking with him the characteristic of repentance from the sins he has committed after baptism. He is tortured then still more–not yet or not quite attaining what he sees others to have acquired. Besides, he is also ashamed of his transgressions. The greatest torments, indeed, are assigned to the believer. For God’s righteousness is good, and His goodness is righteous. And though the punishments cease in the course of the completion of the expiation and purification of each one, yet those have very great and permanent grief who are found worthy of the other fold, on account of not being along with those that have been glorified through righteousness.” *Clement of Alexandria, Stromata, 6:14 (post A.D. 202). *
“[T]hat allegory of the Lord which is extremely clear and simple in its meaning, and ought to be from the first understood in its plain and natural sense…Then, again, should you be disposed to apply the term ‘adversary’ to the devil, you are advised by the (Lord’s) injunction, while you are in the way with him, 'to make even with him such a compact as may be deemed compatible with the requirements of your true faith. Now the compact you have made respecting him is to renounce him, and his pomp, and his angels. Such is your agreement in this matter. Now the friendly understanding you will have to carry out must arise from your observance of the compact: you must never think of getting back any of the things which you have abjured, and have restored to him, lest he should summon you as a fraudulent man, and a transgressor of your agreement, before God the Judge (for in this light do we read of him, in another passage, as ‘the accuser of the brethren,’ or saints, where reference is made to the actual practice of legal prosecution); and lest this Judge deliver you over to the angel who is to execute the sentence, and he commit you to the prison of hell, out of which there will be no dismissal until the smallest even of your delinquencies be paid off in the period before the resurrection. What can be a more fitting sense than this? What a truer interpretation?” *Tertullian, A Treatise on the Soul, 35 (A.D. 210). *
 
Reads and re-reads

Okay, where can I get a good Catholic translation of the Bible? One with all the “extra” books in it? And is there some kind of library where I can find these other books that have these passages you’ve quoted?

<—Always likes to read for herself

Thanks!
For the Bible, go to:

newadvent.org/bible/

It’s the Douay Rheims version, cross referenced with the Catholic Encyclopedia. It’s a very good resource.

In terms of the writings of the ECF’s, try www.ccel.org 🙂
 
Earliest times? Okay…how early? Who’s the earliest Church Father that mentions it? Can you quote them doing so?

interested
There are inferences in the Bible towards Purgatory. Here is a paragraph from the CA article to which I earlier linked you:

““Christ refers to the sinner who “will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come” (Matt. 12:32), suggesting that one can be freed after death of the consequences of one’s sins. Similarly, Paul tells us that, when we are judged, each man’s work will be tried. And what happens if a righteous man’s work fails the test? “He will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire” (1 Cor 3:15). Now this loss, this penalty, can’t refer to consignment to hell, since no one is saved there; and heaven can’t be meant, since there is no suffering (“fire”) there. The Catholic doctrine of purgatory alone explains this passage.””

Also, John Martinogni at biblechristiansociety.com/

has a pretty good talk on Purgatory in which he elaborates the Scriptural support for it. You may have to poke around at that site to find the specific talk, but it is in there somewhere.
 
the Pope cannot judge who is Christian and who goes to Heaven anymore than anyone else can—that is between the person and God. The Pope is saying that the Catholic Church is the only true Church that possesses the full deposit of truth and was entrusted with representing the Kingdom of God on earth. It is nothing new. I don’t understand the big deal. If Catholics did not believe the Catholic Church was the right one–why be Catholic?

Ravyn
True
 
RE: Purgatory:

I read everything on this webpage here:

catholic.com/library/Purgatory.asp

The only part I have difficulty with is this last paragraph:
Catholic theology takes seriously the notion that “nothing unclean shall enter heaven.” From this it is inferred that a less than cleansed soul, even if “covered,” remains a dirty soul and isn’t fit for heaven. It needs to be cleansed or “purged” of its remaining imperfections. The cleansing occurs in purgatory. Indeed, the necessity of the purging is taught in other passages of Scripture, such as 2 Thessalonians 2:13, which declares that God chose us “to be saved through sanctification by the Spirit.” Sanctification is thus not an option, something that may or may not happen before one gets into heaven. It is an absolute requirement, as Hebrews 12:14 states that we must strive “for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.”
If GOD declares the soul clean, who are we to gainsay Him?
 
RE: Purgatory:

I read everything on this webpage here:

catholic.com/library/Purgatory.asp

The only part I have difficulty with is this last paragraph:

If GOD declares the soul clean, who are we to gainsay Him?
The part you quoted wasn’t stating anything about what God declares.

I think the point was that in many Protestant theologies, the belief is that our unclean souls are “covered”, and thus fit to enter Heaven directly. The point the article was making is that there is still an unclean soul under any “covering” that needs to be cleansed.
 
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