Pope Decries Pessimism About Marriage

[manualman]

news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090129/ap_on_re_eu/eu_vatican_marriage_1

In a catholic world, the headline would be: “Balancing Pastoral Care with the Danger of Scandal to the World”

The Holy Father appears to be telling the Roman Rota what I’ve been saying for years - we’re smearing the name of Christ and dishonoring the Church by doing such a poor job of marriage prep, screening of couples seeking marriage and the resulting annulment handout frequency.

From the article: "
According to Vatican statistics, the Holy See estimated that about 70 percent of all annulment requests worldwide came from the United States in 2002. In that year, of the 56,000 requests worldwide, 46,000 were granted."

You hear it from secular folks all the time, it’s practically a joke: How do you say ‘divorce’ in Latin? … Annulment.

The defenders of the status quo always have a great point. They note that it really ISN’T a sacramental marriage if both partners don’t truly give an informed consent. The point they miss is that if this is really grounds for an annullment then for the sake of the Gospel we HAVE to start denying catholic marriage to those who obviously are going into it with ‘defective consent.’

People are smart. They know darn well that the average catholic out there perceives no real difference between a divorce and an annulment. Time to get real.

How hard could it be to simply ask some of the hard questions divorced folks are asked about consent BEFORE the wedding. Wrong answers? Tough love time. Being pastoral needs to STOP meaning diluting teaching and start meaning finding charitable ways to tell the truth. It does not do a couple any good to allow them to deceive themselves into believing they are sacramentally married when a simple quiz could reveal the defects. So why don’t we do it? Why the fear to say no?

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Although 70% of annulments are coming from the United States, I have to wonder, is that because the US has the highest rate of people getting married?

I recall reading that couples in Europe by a large majority, cohabitate rather than marry.

I tried looking up the data, but couldn’t find anything that gave the bottom line.

Jim

 

[Neil_Anthony]

Thank you Pope Benedict for taking a stand against this.

Essentially the North American tribunals have been indirectly saying that no one is capable of entering into a sacramental marriage!

If we believe that, then logically its a sin to get married. We must all live the single life.

It makes no sense. If there’s no such thing as a non-annulable marriage, then stop marrying people. If there are non-annulable marriages, then stop giving annulments to every marriage that breaks down.

 

[joeflow]

I went to a one-day long Pre-Cana before getting married last year, and it was kind of sad.

It was taught by a married couple, the man was Catholic and the woman was Jewish. She pretty much led the whole thing. We spent a whopping 1 minute on NFP, and the girls at the table were grossed out by the thought of talking about cervical mucus and fertility signals.

In the mean time, one of the men was talking about how he was going to the strip club for his bachelor party right afterwards.

I talked to the instructor after the meeting was over, and she expressed her opinion that the Church needed to loosen its stance on abortion and contraception (she didn’t teach this in the class however).

The room seemed to be filled with couples that were only getting married in the Church to make their parents happy. I’m guessing the serious couples attended the weekend long retreat instead.

Not the most inspiring afternoon though.

 

[Holly3278]

I am glad that our beloved Pope Benedict XVI is taking a stand against this.

 

[Lisa44]

I went to a one-day long Pre-Cana before getting married last year, and it was kind of sad.

It was taught by a married couple, the man was Catholic and the woman was Jewish. She pretty much led the whole thing. We spent a whopping 1 minute on NFP, and the girls at the table were grossed out by the thought of talking about cervical mucus and fertility signals.

In the mean time, one of the men was talking about how he was going to the strip club for his bachelor party right afterwards.

I talked to the instructor after the meeting was over, and she expressed her opinion that the Church needed to loosen its stance on abortion and contraception (she didn’t teach this in the class however).

The room seemed to be filled with couples that were only getting married in the Church to make their parents happy. I’m guessing the serious couples attended the weekend long retreat instead.

Not the most inspiring afternoon though.

Uhhh, you need to report these people to the Bishop. Contraception, abortion and strip clubs are not Catholic. Wolves in sheep’s clothing. Beware.

 

[ppeter]

There does seem to be something wrong with some marriage processes. I don’t want to condone everything that goes on in the tribunals in the US.
However, it is indeed true that Christian marriage has nearly become extinct in some places. I think in particular of Italy and the UK. Many people have given up on the idea of marriage, but I don’t think we can blame that on the diocesan tribunals in the US. There are many social, cultural, political and economic factors involved.
We need to realize that a Catholic has a right to the sacraments, and that it’s not realistic in many cases for a priest to refuse to marry people who are not fit for marriage. Part of their unfitness may include that they are incapable of recognizing their own limitations. If they’re refused by one priest, they may simply go to another one. That said, a priest can more often try to make people see their problems and rethink their plans.
We also need to consider the possibility that an initially defective marriage can stay together and give structure to a life that would otherwise be wasted. It may even become a very good marriage, by God’s grace and the effort of the spouses.

 

[GodsGadfly]

My wife and I met online. When we started making plans for our wedding, she wanted to get married where I lived, in GA. She lived in VA.

I called my pastor at the time and arranged a meeting.

I asked about NFP classes. He laughed and said, “I think there are two couples in the parish who are into that sort of thing. Most just go ahead and use birth control. No big deal.”

I asked about individual counseling with a priest. He said, “In this diocese, you just go to Engaged Encounter. You don’t talk to a priest anymore. Marriage isn’t about theology. It’s about getting advice from other couples.”

I was wary of Engaged Encounter, from the impression I had of it from articles I’d read and couples I’d heard talking about it (their reports of how “backward” and “conservative” it was sounded awfully liberal to me). Plus, the Engaged Encounter in that diocese was at a boy scout camp. I’d never been to camp before, and I had never stayed over night with a bunch of strangers before, so I was nervous.

He said, “I’m the designer of our dioecese’s pre-Cana program. It’s a very good program.”

So, on the basis of our long-distance courtship, I got permission to do our pre-Cana in another diocese.

We did our Engaged Encounter weekend through the Diocese of Arlingotn, and it was fantastic. A very holy and well-educated young priest led the weekend, along with two couples. One were a young, devout “JPII Catholic” couple like us, who had a simialr story (they met on a cruise). They other couple were middle-aged and had only come to accept Humanae Vitae later in marriage, after years of contraception and marital struggles.

So it was a very powerful weekend.

Now, admittedly, we had some difficulties with pre-marital chastity. I’ll leave it at that.

We did hvae counseling through diocese of Arlington with a fantastic priest, who at the time was parochial vicar of the parish where my wife taught.

We did maybe 3 meetings with him?

We did one, and he gave us the FOCCUS test. He said to take it home, and not to influence each other’s answers. He said we weren’t allowed to share it till we got back, but we couldn’t resist on that point. While we didn’t talk about the test while taking it, we did talk about it afterwards and examined our answers ourselves. Mostly, we thought the test was too arbitrary and psychological, and poorly written.

On days we had scheduled meetings with Father, I would come with her and spend the day in the convent, praying in front of the blessed sacrament and reading. It was a 2 hour commute, because we were both staying with her parents.

During our first meeting, Father admonished, “You can share an occasional peck on the lips, but that’s it.” We sat on opposite ends of the room, with our hands folded.

When it was time for the second meeting, he rescheduled. He kept rescheduling us. DW confronted him in the hall and said, “Father, how did we do on FOCCUS?” He joked and said, “You failed. But we’ll talk about it later.”

So, he kept putting us off. Finally, we e-mailed him, demanding some kind of explanation, because we’d been panicking, and we were worried he wouldn’t approve us for marriage.

He apologized for the joke. He said that our answers were “off the scale” in terms of the test’s measuring criteria, indicating mostly that we’d “overthought” it. (We did–that was one of the things we discussed between ourselves). He said, “You’re obvoiusly two very seroius people. You’re obviously very serious Catholics, and you obviously take your faith and marriage seriously. But do you have any fun? I don’t sense any chemistry in your relationship?”
We said, “Oh. We can barely keep our hands off each other. We were just afriad because you’d said, ‘Just a peck on the lips,’”
He didn’t realize how far we were commuting, either, in terms of what a big deal it was to schedule our meetings.

Also, he asked about the questions of finances, and how we’d deal with my disability, and stuff. And we gave our answers. In retrospect, it’s been harder than we might have imagined, but the whole point we made then, and made now, is that Christian living is supposed to be hard and challenging.

Anyway, we met with him one last time in person, and he said that our eagerness to “do well” was enough for him. In some ways, he was testing us by putting us off, since most couples could care less about doing their pre-Cana sessions. He said he had a couple due to be married the next day, and they’d only seen him once and kept putting off his appointments.

So, yes, it’s a mess. But it’s about the wider culture, and the American Church’s eagerness to make everyone “feel good.”

When it comes down to it, you don’t need that much “pre-Cana” counseling. You just need the absolute principle that marriage is a sacrament, and it’s forever.

 

[OriginalJS]

The precepts that marriage must be between one man and one woman, lasts until the death of one of the parties, and that divorce is not allowed have never been universally recognized. Polygamy is common in the Old Testament - think about the patriarchs - and in parts of the world, polygamy is widely practiced. Divorce has also been common and is common in much of the world, including the United States. In the US the Church has, in my limited observation, come to grant annulments almost automatically. I have close acquaintances who (1) married a grandfather who had five grandchildren when he divorced his wife; (2) filed for an annulment, were assured of the date the annulment would be granted, planned their wedding, and picked up the annulment just as promised; (3) are divorced, no annulment, but still attend Mass regularly and receive communion with everybody else. This used to disturb some of their older relatives and in-laws but now nobody says anything.

 

[GodsGadfly]

OriginalJS,
The popularity of something wrong does not make it right.

Yes, the Old Testament allows divorce and polygamy (and, arguably, polygamy would be a better way to go than divorce, contraception, or adultery, snce at least it involves “marriage,” a lifelong commitment, and provides a support network for women who would otherwise be abandoned).

However, the teaching of Jesus Christ is very clear on the subject. It’s amazing how many Christians just block their minds to the obvious words of the Gospel.

I’ve talked to people who refer to the Church’s position on divorce as a “Old Testament” mentality, and argue that it goes against the spirit of Jesus’ teachings. And I"m like, “It’s Jesus who says it. The Old Testament allows divorce; Jesus forbids it.”
And the response is something like, “Yep. Exactly. That’s why the Church should allow divorce, because it’s an Old testament thing.”

“If today you hear the voice of the lord, harden not your hearts as your fathers did in the wilderness.”

 

[Beautiful]

I went to a one-day long Pre-Cana before getting married last year, and it was kind of sad.

It was taught by a married couple, the man was Catholic and the woman was Jewish. She pretty much led the whole thing. Not the most inspiring afternoon though.

I called an Engagement Encounter (Catholic) host couple about buying an EE Weekend for my child and fiance. During my inquiry I asked if the hosting couple were both Catholic. My head was nearly chewed off for asking! I promptly said thanks and hung up and went onto the next hosting couple in the area.

Couples! Be sure to ask if the hosts are Catholic! They might bite back at you for asking. Don’t be afraid - EE Weekends are meant to be loving, supportive enrichment for your future marriage. Plan carefully.

 

[Beautiful]

news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090129/ap_on_re_eu/eu_vatican_marriage_1

From the article: "
According to Vatican statistics, the Holy See estimated that about 70 percent of all annulment requests worldwide came from the United States in 2002. In that year, of the 56,000 requests worldwide, 46,000 were granted."

These numbers confirm what we in the USA already know. Marriage has been cheapened to the point of nearly zero. Granting landslide amounts of annulments hasn’t helped.

 

[joeflow]

I called an Engagement Encounter (Catholic) host couple about buying an EE Weekend for my child and fiance. During my inquiry I asked if the hosting couple were both Catholic. My head was nearly chewed off for asking! I promptly said thanks and hung up and went onto the next hosting couple in the area.

Couples! Be sure to ask if the hosts are Catholic! They might bite back at you for asking. Don’t be afraid - EE Weekends are meant to be loving, supportive enrichment for your future marriage. Plan carefully.

Even better, once you’ve been married for a while, go in there and teach pre-Cana yourselves. I’m sure they are always looking for people. Beware, you may not be so popular if you teach it the way its SUPPOSED to be taught.