Pope demands 'legitimate redistribution' of wealth

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Translated - The Pope has asked the people that are responsible for more poverty than anyone else to take money from innovators and producers at the point of a gun and the threat of violence and give it to those who did not earn it.

I am appalled.
 
Hopefully we will get a better translation of what was said. I’m holding my breath for Fr. Z.
 
“Francis urged the U.N. to promote development goals that attack the root causes of poverty and hunger, protect the environment and ensure dignified labor for all. Specifically, this involves challenging all forms of injustices and resisting the economy of exclusion, the throwaway culture and the culture of death which nowadays sadly risk becoming passively accepted,” he said.

Where do you get Liberation theology at the “point of a gun” from this?

This is no different than the message of responsible Catholic social justice that the Church has preached since the early Christians laid everything at the foot of the Apostles for re-distribution to the needy.

BTW, I am pretty much politically over on the right side and have no love for the UN, but I just dont’ see it in what I read.
 
I can’t get the link to work (my own problem, I think) but I’d suggest reading the actual words of the Pope, found here:

press.vatican.va/content/salastampa/en/bollettino/pubblico/2014/05/09/0333/00735.html

and compare it to what Pope Benedict said here, in paragraphs 38-39, about gratuitous, Zacchaeus-like behavior and also the notion of “redistribution” carried out by the State: vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20090629_caritas-in-veritate_en.html

Dan
 
I’m a traditionalist/conservative etc, and I don’t see any problem at all. I was very happy with this speech because he was quite strong on abortion, and even finally used the phrase “culture of death”.

For the economic stuff, even AP and the author Nicole Winfield (who are both rabidly anti-Catholic) admitted that “his predecessors have voiced similar concerns.”
 
The early Christians never said give your wealth to a roman bureaucrat and let him redistribute it.

If Pope Francis wanted to truly go to the heart of what’s causing poverty and war he would address the issue of central banking.

There is a disturbing pattern of the Pope speaking and then everyone being told he was misinterpreted or taken out of context.

Suggesting the worst and most violent people (Politicians and bureaucrats) among us do potentially more damage than they have done is not well thought out.
 
Ed Morrisey’s opinion:
In this case, the term “legitimate” is a limiting factor when redistribution is placed in the context of the Gospel story of Zacchaeus. Who was Zaccheaus? He was a tax collector — an agent of the government — who overtaxed and profited from his cheating. In Luke 19, Jesus’ visit to Jericho inspires this sinner and cheater to repent when Jesus extends an invitation to join him. What does Zacchaeus do in response? He proclaims his intent to redistribute his ill-gotten gains back to those whom he defrauded, and to willingly and privately share his wealth with the poor. ”And Zacchae’us stood and said to the Lord, “Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have defrauded any one of anything, I restore it fourfold.”
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In this exhortation, Francis links legitimate redistribution — ie, social benefits that almost every nation distributes in some form or another — with the larger efforts in the private sphere. Francis calls more for the conversion of the heart in private transactions in this exhortation more than any change in public policy. Much like conservatives like to profess in other contexts, Francis argues here that culture is upstream of politics. If we change hearts to be more generous and less attached to the hoarding of wealth as Jesus did with Zacchaeus, then there will be less need for governments to redistribute by force.
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This may not be the most conservative or libertarian expression of economic policies, but it’s basic Catholic teaching on economics for decades, if not centuries. The lesson of Zacchaeus isn’t that government should seize more private property, but that private citizens should convert to a greater love of God and therefore have more solidarity with the poor. Those who oppose social-benefit programs will still find fault with Francis on this point, and there’s plenty of room for debate as to what constitutes “legitimate” efforts in that sphere. It’s clear, though, that he wasn’t calling for widespread and massive confiscation of wealth by governments. In fact, the story of Zacchaeus points out the dangers and injustice that result from that kind of policy.
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Just remember — when the media provides only small soundbites of Pope Francis, it pays to read the entirety of his remarks, and to know and understand the teachings behind them.
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hotair.com/archives/2014/05/09/pope-francis-zacchaeus-and-legitimate-redistribution
 
I aqlso saw somebody on twitter cite an article which linked to a speech Pope Benedict made anbd check out this quote:
Peace, however, is not merely a gift to be received: it is also a task to be undertaken. In order to be true peacemakers, we must educate ourselves in compassion, solidarity, working together, fraternity, in being active within the community and concerned to raise awareness about national and international issues and the importance of seeking adequate mechanisms for the redistribution of wealth, the promotion of growth, cooperation for development and conflict resolution. “Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God”, as Jesus says in the Sermon on the Mount (Mt 5:9).
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vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/messages/peace/documents/hf_ben-xvi_mes_20111208_xlv-world-day-peace_en.html
 
I also saw somebody on twitter cite an article which linked to a speech Pope Benedict made. Check out this quote:
Peace, however, is not merely a gift to be received: it is also a task to be undertaken. In order to be true peacemakers, we must educate ourselves in compassion, solidarity, working together, fraternity, in being active within the community and concerned to raise awareness about national and international issues and the importance of seeking adequate mechanisms for the redistribution of wealth, the promotion of growth, cooperation for development and conflict resolution. “Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God”, as Jesus says in the Sermon on the Mount (Mt 5:9).
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vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/messages/peace/documents/hf_ben-xvi_mes_20111208_xlv-world-day-peace_en.html
 
Michael_C said:
… There is a disturbing pattern of the Pope speaking and then everyone being told he was misinterpreted or taken out of context. …
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Hello,

If someone reads what the Pope said in this brief address, and concludes “The Pope has asked the people that are responsible for more poverty than anyone else to take money from innovators and producers at the point of a gun and the threat of violence and give it to those who did not earn it”, I think a reasonable conclusion is that the Pope was misinterpreted, to put it mildly.

Dan
 
_Abyssinia said:
Ed Morrisey’s opinion:

If we change hearts to be more generous and less attached to the hoarding of wealth as Jesus did with Zacchaeus, then there will be less need for governments to redistribute by force.
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Less Need??? This statement implies that there IS a point that justifies redistribution by force. Forced redistribution is just theivery done by the government. What happened to coveting your neighbor’s goods?
 
From the English translation provide by the Vatican:
A contribution to this equitable development will also be made both by international activity aimed at the integral human development of all the world’s peoples and by the legitimate redistribution of economic benefits by the State, as well as indispensable cooperation between the private sector and civil society.
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What is the legitimate redistribution of ‘benefits’? This seems to me an imprecise term. I think the Pope means wealth or profit. Profit is a benefit of being productive, but we generally don’t refer to it as a benefit. We do however refer to the money taken from producers and given to others via the state as benefits.

The Pope is clearly saying the state has a legitimate right to redistribute wealth. Whether or not this is true I’m not sure why for practical reasons anyone promoting the Christian Faith would promote the power of the current nation states. This above all seems to be counter productive to the goals being sought. Modern governments are highly wasteful of money and consume a huge portion of each nations productivity. Beyond merely being wasteful western governments use their awesome power to destabilize the world and engage in endless and brutal wars. If government power was reduced citizens would have far more money to give to the poor. And they would spend a good bit of their money they get to keep on helping the poor in useful and efficient ways. They’d especially give more to the church. This just seems like very bad politics to encourage the modern nation state, whose power is beyond anything the world has seen, to become more powerful.
 
Ignats75 said:
Less Need??? This statement implies that there IS a point that justifies redistribution by force. Forced redistribution is just theivery done by the government. What happened to coveting your neighbor’s goods?
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We already have taxation, does it change your view if we were to say “less taxation”?
 
dans0622 said:
If someone reads what the Pope said in this brief address, and concludes “The Pope has asked the people that are responsible for more poverty than anyone else to take money from innovators and producers at the point of a gun and the threat of violence and give it to those who did not earn it”, I think a reasonable conclusion is that the Pope was misinterpreted, to put it mildly.
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Ignoring the claim the government is more responsible for poverty than any other institution, which I happen to think is true, the Pope did say exactly this. He said the state has a legitimate right to take money and redistribute it. Money necessarily comes from producers. The government’s powers are precisely and only the threat of violence which in our times is most typically includes guns, beatings, prisons, and torture.

Non producers don’t generate any wealth to transfer. The government doesn’t ask nicely and then leave you alone if you don’t pay its taxes.
  • (This conclusion would not be true if by ‘benefits’ in the English translation the Pope did not mean wealth or profit but the sense of accomplishment one gets from working, which I’m sure he did not as that is not something one can transfer)
 
Michael_C said:
Translated - The Pope has asked the people that are responsible for more poverty than anyone else to take money from innovators and producers at the point of a gun and the threat of violence and give it to those who did not earn it.

I am appalled.
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I think your post is a glaring example of what Pope
Francis said a few weeks ago about the evils
of gossip and slander.
Nowhere in this linked article or anywhere else has the
Pope advocated violence on any issue.
Your post isinsulting and absurd and inflammatory.

I am appalled.
 
dans0622 said:
I can’t get the link to work (my own problem, I think) but I’d suggest reading the actual words of the Pope, found here:

press.vatican.va/content/salastampa/en/bollettino/pubblico/2014/05/09/0333/00735.html

and compare it to what Pope Benedict said here, in paragraphs 38-39, about gratuitous, Zacchaeus-like behavior and also the notion of “redistribution” carried out by the State: vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20090629_caritas-in-veritate_en.html

Dan
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Thanks for the link. The first thing I want to do when I see these stories (even before reading the story) is to look at what the Pope actually said.

I don’t think the pope’s words should ever make us feel nervous in a bad way. But they should make us feel nervous in a good way.

What I mean is that we should never think “Uh, oh, the pope is teaching heresy!” But we should definitely be challenged by the things he says to come to ever-deeper levels of conversion.
 
Ignats75 said:
hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/E/EU_REL_VATICAN_UN?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2014-05-09-06-31-28

Pope JP II called Liberation Theology a heresy. Now, Pope Francis is getting dangerously close to endorsing this position. This is the first time I am truly troubled by what Pope Francis has said.😦
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Consider the source. This is the same secular media that has misrepresented or tried to shoehorn into their political position everything that Francis has said. I’ll wait to see his full remarks rather than go to Defcon 5 over what the AP said he said.
 
I read the Yahoo! version of the story, and it sounds like the Pope just wants economic conditions and development goals such that the poor may be helped. 🤷

And do I really need to remind everyone the Church’s position on central planning and the bias and intent of the American mainstream media to hijack the papacy of Pope Francis in order to advance their agenda covertly?
 
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