Pope demands 'legitimate redistribution' of wealth

[TheDoctor]

I think your post is a glaring example of what Pope
Francis said a few weeks ago about the evils
of gossip and slander.
Nowhere in this linked article or anywhere else has the
Pope advocated violence on any issue.
Your post isinsulting and absurd and inflammatory.

I am appalled.

My feelings exactly but much more eloquent and well put. Thank you.

 

[ProVobis]

Hopefully we will get a better translation of what was said. I’m holding my breath for Fr. Z.

Is there a version in Latin, as that would be the official version? Otherwise we’re just living in Babel.

 

[Brendan]

The early Christians never said give your wealth to a roman bureaucrat and let him redistribute it…

In fact, they said quite the opposite

St. John Chrysostom - Doctor of the Church

Should we look to kings and princes to put right the inequalities between rich and poor? Should we require soldiers to come and seize the rich person’s gold and distribute it among his destitute neighbors? Should we beg the emperor to impose a tax on the rich so great that it reduces them to the level of the poor and then to share the proceeds of that tax among everyone? Equality imposed by force would achieve nothing, and do much harm.

Those who combined both cruel hearts and sharp minds would soon find ways of making themselves rich again. Worse still, the rich whose gold was taken away would feel bitter and resentful; while the poor who received the gold form the hands of soldiers would feel no gratitude, because no generosity would have prompted the gift. Far from bringing moral benefit to society, it would actually do moral harm. Material justice cannot be accomplished by compulsion, a change of heart will not follow. The only way to achieve true justice is to change people’s hearts first — and then they will joyfully share their wealth

 

[EIF5A]

I think your post is a glaring example of what Pope
Francis said a few weeks ago about the evils
of gossip and slander.
Nowhere in this linked article or anywhere else has the
Pope advocated violence on any issue.
Your post isinsulting and absurd and inflammatory.

I am appalled.

Agreed.

It seems there’s a segment of the (Catholic) population that is primed to twist anything “liberal-sounding” the Holy Father has to say to further substantiate the claim that he is teaching something doctrinally unsound.

More than likely, we are biased by our (American) idea of what suffering, inequality, injustice, and poverty are and what their causes are.

Nowhere is there advocation for total equality, where everyone is of equal wealth. It is only against indifference to massive level of suffering that can be alleviated.

 

[agnes_therese]

Translated - The Pope has asked the people that are responsible for more poverty than anyone else to take money from innovators and producers at the point of a gun and the threat of violence and give it to those who did not earn it.

I am appalled.

I am appalled at a Catholic making such an accusation against the Pope.

 

[Robyn_p]

Agreed.

It seems there’s a segment of the (Catholic) population that is primed to twist anything “liberal-sounding” the Holy Father has to say to further substantiate the claim that he is teaching something doctrinally unsound.

More than likely, we are biased by our (American) idea of what suffering, inequality, injustice, and poverty are and what their causes are.

Nowhere is there advocation for total equality, where everyone is of equal wealth. It is only against indifference to massive level of suffering that can be alleviated.

Well said.

 

[St_Francis]

Translated - The Pope has asked the people that are responsible for more poverty than anyone else to take money from innovators and producers at the point of a gun and the threat of violence and give it to those who did not earn it.

I am appalled.

I started reading the documents of Catholic social teaching some years ago, and they fit in well with the Catholic view of government. The sort of thing you are saying here is much more from a post-“Enlightenment” libertarian philosophy which proposes an atomistic individualism, ignoring human nature, which requires for full growth of the individual connections with others.

True Catholic social teaching (not the *hijacked *“social justice” espoused by other philosophical descendents of the so-called Enlightenment) is based on a Catholic understanding of human nature, government, and virtue. My thinking was very changed when I read “what the Church really teaches” about these issues. It was challenging, I admit!

Among other things, the “redistribution of wealth” is not at all what US progressives (or whatever they are called now) advocate but is more an exposition of the necessity of understanding that hoarding is wrong and the obligation we have to help others both as individuals and as members of our society.

I also would like to point out that much of the “social safety net” built ip by the Church over centuries was stolen by the rulers, ie, the government. So to whom else would we turn for the help?

 

[Robert_Sock]

Pope Francis is right on in our need to help those living in poverty, and I believe he will speak the truth as to how it must be remedied. Unregulated Capitalism will be nowhere to be condoned, and instead, he will embrace an economic theory that will promote social justice in helping to alleviate poverty; whether this new economy is Socialistic in nature, we will need to wait a little longer.

LOVE!

 

[gilliam]

Here is some analysis by US fiscal conservatives who are Catholic:
hotair.com/archives/2014/05/09/pope-francis-zacchaeus-and-legitimate-redistribution/

Not sure I agree with all of what they have to say.

Personally, I love that the Holy Father is actually getting us conservatives to think about what it means to be Catholic (which often doesn’t equate to “Limbaugh Republican”)

 

[gilliam]

Here is what the Holy Father said:

ADDRESS OF POPE FRANCIS
TO THE UN SYSTEM CHIEF EXECUTIVES BOARD FOR COORDINATION

Consistory Hall
Friday, 9 May 2014

Mr Secretary General,
Ladies and Gentlemen,

…

The results of the Millennium Development Goals, especially in terms of education and the decrease in extreme poverty, confirm the value of the work of coordination carried out by this Chief Executives Board. At the same time, it must be kept in mind that the world’s peoples deserve and expect even greater results.

An essential principle of management is the refusal to be satisfied with current results and to press forward, in the conviction that those gains are only consolidated by working to achieve even more. In the case of global political and economic organization, much more needs to be achieved, since an important part of humanity does not share in the benefits of progress and is in fact relegated to the status of second-class citizens. Future Sustainable Development Goals must therefore be formulated and carried out with generosity and courage, so that they can have a real impact on the structural causes of poverty and hunger, attain more substantial results in protecting the environment, ensure dignified and productive labor for all, and provide appropriate protection for the family, which is an essential element in sustainable human and social development. Specifically, this involves challenging all forms of injustice and resisting the “economy of exclusion”, the “throwaway culture” and the “culture of death” which nowadays sadly risk becoming passively accepted.

With this in mind, I would like to remind you, as representatives of the chief agencies of global cooperation, of an incident which took place two thousand years ago and is recounted in the Gospel of Saint Luke (19:1-10). It is the encounter between Jesus Christ and the rich tax collector Zacchaeus, as a result of which Zacchaeus made a radical decision of sharing and justice, because his conscience had been awakened by the gaze of Jesus. This same spirit should be at the beginning and end of all political and economic activity. The gaze, often silent, of that part of the human family which is cast off, left behind, ought to awaken the conscience of political and economic agents and lead them to generous and courageous decisions with immediate results, like the decision of Zacchaeus. Does this spirit of solidarity and sharing guide all our thoughts and actions, I ask myself?

Today, in concrete terms, an awareness of the dignity of each of our brothers and sisters whose life is sacred and inviolable from conception to natural death must lead us to share with complete freedom the goods which God’s providence has placed in our hands, material goods but also intellectual and spiritual ones, and to give back generously and lavishly whatever we may have earlier unjustly refused to others.

The account of Jesus and Zacchaeus teaches us that above and beyond economic and social systems and theories, there will always be a need to promote generous, effective and practical openness to the needs of others. Jesus does not ask Zacchaeus to change jobs nor does he condemn his financial activity; he simply inspires him to put everything, freely yet immediately and indisputably, at the service of others. Consequently, I do not hesitate to state, as did my predecessors (cf. JOHN PAUL II, Sollicitudo Rei Socialis, 42-43; Centesimus Annus, 43; BENEDICT XVI, Caritas in Veritate, 6; 24-40), that equitable economic and social progress can only be attained by joining scientific and technical abilities with an unfailing commitment to solidarity accompanied by a generous and disinterested spirit of gratuitousness at every level. A contribution to this equitable development will also be made both by international activity aimed at the integral human development of all the world’s peoples and by the legitimate redistribution of economic benefits by the State, as well as indispensable cooperation between the private sector and civil society.

Consequently, while encouraging you in your continuing efforts to coordinate the activity of the international agencies, which represents a service to all humanity, I urge you to work together in promoting a true, worldwide ethical mobilization which, beyond all differences of religious or political convictions, will spread and put into practice a shared ideal of fraternity and solidarity, especially with regard to the poorest and those most excluded.

Invoking divine guidance on the work of your Board, I also implore God’s special blessing for you, Mr Secretary-General, for the Presidents, Directors and Secretaries General present among us, and for all the personnel of the United Nations and the other international Agencies and Bodies, and their respective families. Thank you very much.

w2.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/speeches/2014/may/documents/papa-francesco_20140509_consiglio-nazioni-unite.html

 

[Timothysis]

It is worth remembering that Pope Francis is speaking to world leaders, so obviously anything he says is going to be in the context of their respective “power” (i.e. government).

Also, he again is not speaking about any one particular country or government. Most Americans will think that he is saying that the government should tax us more so that they can give it to the “less fortunate.” Pope Francis and the popes before them have always condemned the idea of the State being the sole source of providence for people. So, one must interpret what he says in the context of what he and the Church teach and have taught for centuries.

Lastly, does anyone honestly expect the pope to defend lifestyles that possess far more than is needed while many millions of the world suffer due to a lack of the most basic necessities? Brother JR once said that the Church is always going to be on the side of the poor. While I am very far from “rich,” I at least have a job, a roof over my head, food in the fridge, a car in the driveway, money in the bank and a 401k for retirement. The sad fact is that with my minimal economic prosperity, I am living better than probably the bottom 25% of the world’s population. Why does anyone think the pope should bless them and their lifestyle when so many of the world exist in extreme poverty? I don’t feel guilty for my position but I am very grateful and feel myself to be fortunate. But I also can’t turn a blind eye to those who are less off.

 

[Timothysis]

Pope Francis is right on in our need to help those living in poverty, and I believe he will speak the truth as to how it must be remedied. Unregulated Capitalism will be nowhere to be condoned, and instead, he will embrace an economic theory that will promote social justice in helping to alleviate poverty; whether this new economy is Socialistic in nature, we will need to wait a little longer.

LOVE!

Pope Francis has already reiterated that Socialism is condemned by the Church. Furthermore, he is not speaking about economic systems or advocating one over the other. He is stating what the Church has stated for centuries, that it is the duty of those in power to provide for all. Stop trying to make him say the things YOU want him to say.

 

[shelby_sun]

So I am wondering if the Pope is thinking about redistributing some of the Vatican’s wealth, which is quite large. Now the Church is not responsible for poverty, but as a Jesuit I know he is very uncomfortable being surrounded by so much wealth on a daily bases. In fact, working with the Jesuits, I know anything other than the most modest living quarter would make him uncomfortable.

I would think if he is speaking so strongly on this issue he would be thinking that the Vatican should chip in, maybe selling some of its art. Not that it will actually happen.

 

[lerapt78]

I see no mention of precisely *how *“legitimate redistribution” can or should be achieved. Yes, he says that “government should. . . .” But exactly *how *“should they” correct injustices? The words of Pope Francis in the article (and the supporting link that Dans0622) are quite vague, are they not? This is what people would like to know, I think, and why there is much confusion and debate on both sides.

If Pope Francis wanted to truly go to the heart of what’s causing poverty and war he would address the issue of central banking.

Being that the Pope is addressing the U.N. in particular, is there no better opportunity to at least open the door to discussion on the actions of the IMF and the World Bank?

Truth be told, I can’t expect the Church leaders to go up against the powerful banking cartels of the world. And in a way, I feel the ambiguity of Pope Francis’ words to be a positive aspect, because it asks people to practice justice for others while leaving them the freedom to decide how best to correct legitimate economic inequalities according to the commerce laws and productivity levels of their respective societies.

The downside to this vagueness however, is that his words can ring empty because they really don’t get to - as what you referred - the “heart of the matter”. (Not to mention, they leave people to make assumptions while claiming Church authority on the issue.) And I do think that the manipulation of money, and the permission granted to a select few to create money “out of nothing” is (among other policies) a main contributor toward so many of the economic problems we see today.

 

[dans0622]

So I am wondering if the Pope is thinking about redistributing some of the Vatican’s wealth, which is quite large. …

Hello,

That’s silly. The US government, by comparison, loses more money in the governmental couch cushion than the Vatican possesses. Besides that, most of what “the Vatican” possesses was given to it by people, for a particular purpose. One cannot simply do whatever one wants with such donations, even if he’s the Pope.

Dan

 

[Robyn_p]

Less Need??? This statement implies that there IS a point that justifies redistribution by force. Forced redistribution is just theivery done by the government. What happened to coveting your neighbor’s goods?

Do you think state programs like welfare and food stamps and social services for the disabled and elderly who can’t make ends meet are thievery then? Because that’s what we’re talking about when we talk about the legitimate redistribution of wealth. That’s not coveting your neighbors goods, that’s caring for the least of our brothers. This is Catholic teaching. The state does have a duty to help it’s poorest and weakest members.

The Pope isn’t advocating for unrestrained state intervention as you are implying, that’s why he said legitimate, which usually means there’s such a thing as illegitimate as well. He also made sure to point out that state programs alone aren’t enough, though they are necessary.

A contribution to this equitable development will also be made both by international activity aimed at the integral human development of all the world’s peoples and by the legitimate redistribution of economic benefits by the State, as well as indispensable cooperation between the private sector and civil society.

ncregister.com/blog/edward-pentin/pope-calls-on-u.n.-leaders-to-resist-culture-of-death#ixzz31Eqqw4yw

Both the state *and *the private sector must work together to help the poor. This is very Catholic of the pope to say.

 

[shelby_sun]

Hello,

That’s silly. The US government, by comparison, loses more money in the governmental couch cushion than the Vatican possesses. Besides that, most of what “the Vatican” possesses was given to it by people, for a particular purpose. One cannot simply do whatever one wants with such donations, even if he’s the Pope.

Dan

Yes, I know this, but I am betting he would if he could. He cannot get foreign governments to do anything either.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

So how is this to be done without subjecting ourselves to some kind of political dictatorship, some kind of socialist dictatorship. Hopefully some one from the Vatican has misrepresented the Pope’s thought.

Of course the Pope is welcome to his personal views, he should not attempt to force his personal interpretations on the rest of us. Whatever you call it, socialism, the forced redistribution of wealth is not charity.

Further, he should be aware of the unintended consequences of such policies. One of these is that it will make it ever more hard, even impossible, for American dioceases to finance their plants - churches, schools, charitable works, etc.

This idea is really, really bad.

Linus2nd

 

[Timothysis]

Do you think state programs like welfare and food stamps and social services for the disabled and elderly who can’t make ends meet are thievery then? Because that’s what we’re talking about when we talk about the legitimate redistribution of wealth. That’s not coveting your neighbors goods, that’s caring for the least of our brothers. This is Catholic teaching. The state does have a duty to help it’s poorest and weakest members.

This is a excellent point. We hear how we should take care of our veterans, but I wonder how many consider funding the Veteran’s Administration as a form of redistribution?

 

[Timothysis]

Whatever you call it, socialism, the forced redistribution of wealth is not charity.

Seeing that the pope has never said such a thing nor does he endorse it, I don’t see where it really enters into the conversation.