Pope demands 'legitimate redistribution' of wealth

[shelby_sun]

Judas said the same thing

biblehub.com/mark/14-6.htm

The Sistine Chapel argument is usually proposed by someone who thinks all we have in this life is the material.
You can feed the stomach for a day with that money. Yet what good is life if we just fed our bellies and never pondered the spiritual with invaluable art works? God hasn’t left man. He deserves his tribute. To ask to sell off treasures to be locked up in private, is a sign of jealousy and covetousness. No different than Judas.

Anyone thinking the Pope is speaking in general terms, and NOT speaking with that which is consistent with Papal Teaching, as posted by others on this thread,
is someone who thinks the Right to Property at the expense of the common good is good.

To ask the Vatican to sell its art implies all valuable art should be sold off, all public holdings of historical artifacts and governments should sell off all possessions. No Smithsonian, No Nation’s Museums should hold art if everything can be reduced to utilitarian use for one’s stomach.
It’s a ridiculous fallacious argument that deflects from the true point of emphasis, glaring disparity of wealth that does effect the common good.

Jesus said the Poor you will always have with you.

The Pope is pointing out, the poor hasn’t left us. The issue is Economic disparity, which takes away from the working class and middle class.

I think the poor could be helped more, not by those owning billions , but many, many people and families having their wages to live, and having that surplus value to do what they must to care for the poor in their abilities too, which they will have more ability to do so, if the concentration of wealth is among the many.

IT is too simplistic to say, "Hey you’re a billionaire, you do everything! " “hey Church, you own a lot,sell everything!” rather it is the goal to have many people own property and have enough of that surplus value, the concentration of wealth among more people than rich individuals, so that they can be freer to help their neighbor better, than an individual minding a corporation who has not the time, what the many can do for the poor on a more INTIMATE level.

To say, “we need to throw more money at the poor” is to miss the mark. It’s NOT THE MONEY.
**It’s our ATTENTION **to the poor. The wealth is secondary.

This is why "Sell all your possessions, your art! " is a short-sighted demand. NO,
the point of the Popes is to point out that concentration of wealth and profit among the few, at the expense of wage earners and lower classes, middle classes, cripples societies OVERALL ability of helping their poor.

If a father and mother have to work two jobs just to meet their necessities, to provide for their kids? And a student has to work countless hours to pay off their loans? These people who can do more than the impersonal rich man throwing his money at a cause for a tax write off, get cut off from the time they could have to more effectively give their charity.

Currently THE TIME put in to serve that Economic system, is IMPEDING a lot of people’s ability to remember to** care for their impoverished neighbor **and provide their surplus charity, that they WOULD have, if the concentration of wealth gap, was less wide.

Charity is a lot more than just throwing money at something, which a billionaire can do.
If more people are closer to give its** attention *to the poor with what little they have? Then we wouldn’t get this mentality of False Redistribution, “let the billionaire give his money” “i have none in comparison to him” *

This also applies to the STATE, and the problems with welfare state, “oh the government can do everything”
If the working class, middle class were to get what they EARN in JUSTICE , through whatever legitimate means. It doesn’t mean that they NOW have the ability to do as the unjust rich man does with their material, whatever they want ignoring their obligations to the less fortunate.

To whom much is given,much is expected.

This is why Catholicism will be at odds with anyone who looks for an ideology that cater to the MATERIALISTIC. Which is found in both Marxism and Capitalism.

I didn’t know the Catholic Church had any material wealth when Judas was alive.

I myself am a minimalist that take to pleasure in things. I buy all my clothes at the Goodwill even though I d not have too for just that reason and one way I try to help the poor because every little bit matters.

Do you really think God wants a tribute of things. He might want an artist to use his talents that he was blessed with and to share his talent with others, but doesn’t want to be praised with things, the Jesuit know that.

No one asked or said the things should be sold. I said that I know, as a Jesuit, the Pope might be uncomfortable with it that is why he is not living in the Vatican.

It doesn’t matter what the Pope wants or says, non-Catholics aren’t going to listen to him about this anyway.

 

[EIF5A]

The time has past that the Vatican and local diocese should spend time giving high-level and nebulous advice to politicians and governments.

The 2000’s politicians and governments world wide are by far the most corrupt and fallen people alive. The Catholic Church has the answers and the smartest people to execute just businesses, education system, small governments, societies, etc.

If the Church has some strategy to save civilization today they need to come forward boldly and stop being limp wristed effeminate clergy afraid of what someone in the media will say about them hurting their feeeeeelings.

They need to preach the full and complete Truth that the greedy, the fornicators, the murders will be in hell for all eternity with no chance of ever escaping. Those humans who send themselves to hell will be there with the conscience, resurrected bodies and souls for ever and ever.

Our Lord’s Ocean of Mercy is for everyone but you have to ask for it humbly and sincerely.

“Limp wristed effeminate clergy”

“Humbly and sincerely”

Since when is judging the clergy and the Church (your statements are tactless at best, pridefully judgmental at worst) humility and sincerity?

 

[EIF5A]

Shelby, my grandfather told me that when his aunt lived through the Second Vatican Council she said to him, “We are all becoming Protestants!”

Pope Paul VI was accused of teaching “souped up Marxism”.

Nothing changes. Pope Francis is no more “liberal” than John XXIII or Paul VI. Relative to each era, popes have always been accused of being too “liberal” or too “conservative”. The Truth hurts and people respond accordingly.

There is no such thing as a liberal or a conservative pope. This is nonsensical media talk.

Not only the media, evidently.

 

[Vouthon]

I didn’t know the Catholic Church had any material wealth when Judas was alive.

biblehub.com/esv/john/12.htm

John 12

Mary Anoints Jesus at Bethany

1Six days before the Passover, Jesus therefore came to Bethany, where Lazarus was, whom Jesus had raised from the dead. 2So they gave a dinner for him there. Martha served, and Lazarus was one of those reclining with him at table. **3Mary therefore took a pound of expensive ointment made from pure nard, and anointed the feet of Jesus **and wiped his feet with her hair. The house was filled with the fragrance of the perfume. 4But Judas Iscariot, one of his disciples (he who was about to betray him), said, 5“Why was this ointment not sold for three hundred denariib and given to the poor?” 6He said this, not because he cared about the poor, but because he was a thief, and having charge of the moneybag he used to help himself to what was put into it

Judas was in charge of the “money bag” of the Apostles and disciples and stole from it, yet accused Jesus of being selfish and not caring for the poor because he allowed Mary of Bethany to anoint him with an expensive perfume worth a day’s wage as a ritual act of love for her Lord that he saw as a preparation for his burial.

 

[Vouthon]

It doesn’t matter what the Pope wants or says, non-Catholics aren’t going to listen to him about this anyway.

Actually, he is very popular among non-Catholics at the moment. He won “Person of the Year” for 2013 remember and has a glowing reception in British daily rag newspapers such as the “Daily Mail”. He has their ear right now and thus is in a very influential position.

Indeed he is becoming day by day the moral conscience of this age even for many non-Catholics.

And you’d be amazed how receptive non-Catholics can be to Catholic Social Teaching in general. Two years ago, it was making a buzz in the politics of the UK - a non-Catholic majority country:

bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-20154986

A new zeitgeist is capturing [British] business people, academics and political players from both the Left and Right, looking for an ethical alternative for our time. Their inspiration? Catholic teaching…

Compassion for the poor

I set out to understand more about these ideas, to find out why they are engaging so many different groups of people right now, and whether their current influence is likely to make any substantive difference to policy or politics.

The challenges of today’s economic struggles echo with the origins of Catholic Social Teaching
Although its roots can be traced back not just to the Bible, but to the ideas of Aristotle, rediscovered in the 13th Century by St Thomas Aquinas, the modern expression of Catholic Social Teaching came in an encyclical - the highest form of papal teaching - titled Rerum Novarum and issued in 1891 by Pope Leo XIII.

The Pope offered the “gift” of Catholic social thought to a troubled world.

In questioning not just the power of the market, but also the reach of the state, Catholic Social Teaching - updated in the light of the financial crisis in Pope Benedict’s 2009 encyclical Caritas in Veritate (charity in truth) - plays into a new strand of communitarianism reflected in the rise of Maurice Glasman’s concept of Blue Labour, Philip Blond’s advocacy of Red Toryism and even aspects of David Cameron’s rather troubled Big Society programme.

Catholic Social Teaching is not just about the ends of social reform, it is also about the means. Its emphasis on change, from the community upwards, means its influence reaches down to street level…

As Jesus said, “The Harvest is great but the labourers are few”.

There are millions of hearts out their waiting to be changed.

 

[Veridical16]

I myself am a minimalist that take to pleasure in things. I buy all my clothes at the Goodwill even though I d not have too for just that reason and one way I try to help the poor because every little bit matters.

Do you really think God wants a tribute of things.

In the old testament God asked for Gold Cherubims for the Temple.
Jesus was friends with RICH MEN.
Being Rich is not A SIN. Everyone has different talents, everyone gets what they EARN justly from the labors they put in through the different UNEQUAL talents and abilities we have.

Jesus was allowed to have a tomb, and the shroud of Turin, and BURIAL clothes from the benefactor, St. Joseph of Arimathea.

His** seamless clothe**s were gambled over at the foot of the cross.

That you may be minimalist is well and good, because we are to be detached from the things of this Earth. But it does not mean, others in different areas based on their talents DON’T GIVE BACK and put their sweat and efforts to produce fine things in honoring GOD.

Jesus is a KING. His mother is the Queen of Heaven, just because we don’t value the material at the expense of God, and love for neighbor, does not mean we ignore what we can do with the creation that GOD provided with us in our own way.
We imitate Christ the Carpenter, when we put our labors and love INTO CREATION.

Creation has value, to ignore that is to miss the mark in what it means to follow St. Francis of Assisi ’ poverty vows. This is the connected to neglect of the parable of the talents. The Earth was made for us, we should recognize the value we can put into these things, rather than neglect the rock that could become a sculpture.

Catholics have FEAST days for a reason, we aren’t ascetics to detriment of the labors of love toward creation, toward God. On Christmas day, St. Francis himself said, even the walls should have meat smeared over them, on such a joyous day.

He might want an artist to use his talents that he was blessed with and to share his talent with others, but doesn’t want to be praised with things, the Jesuit know that. No one asked or said the things should be sold. I said that I know, as a Jesuit, the Pope might be uncomfortable with it that is why he is not living in the Vatican.

Again, read my Quote as Vouthon posted.

JESUS ASKED DIRECTLY to be VENERATED WITH OIL for his benefit. In the OT, God asked for praise.

REMEMBER THANKSGIVING is a prayer we ignore.

Bishop Fulton Sheen said, we don’t say THANKS to God, because God NEEDS our thanks,

We say thanks to GOD, because WE NEED IT.

Tribute to God is no different. To make homogenized ugly Churches in uniform fashion misses the mark of valuing poverty.

A Parish is beautiful and may have value in it that rises to the levels of millions, because of the love of the artisans, and the love the patrons who gave their wealth to have it erected because they gave thanks to God.

It doesn’t matter what the Pope wants or says, non-Catholics aren’t going to listen to him about this anyway.

Ye ’ of little faith. When Truth is uttered by a man with authority, its reverberations are far reaching.
The Pope whether the world likes it or not is the Shepherd to all men.
Whether they listen to him or not, has consequences before God’s eyes.

 

[St_Francis]

I didn’t know the Catholic Church had any material wealth when Judas was alive.

I myself am a minimalist that take to pleasure in things. I buy all my clothes at the Goodwill even though I d not have too for just that reason and one way I try to help the poor because every little bit matters.

I find it odd that some people who are financially well-placed buy things from the thrift shop which a poor person would otherwise be able to buy, and think they are by this exchange helping the poor sufficiently that they have no problem spending the money they saved on themselves. (not saying this about you, but about some I have heard)

Do you really think God wants a tribute of things. He might want an artist to use his talents that he was blessed with and to share his talent with others, but doesn’t want to be praised with things, the Jesuit know that.

Does God want us to behave well, to grow in virtue? Doesn’t that include justice? We worship God from justice (if not from love), We glorify Him, and one way we do so is to put some of what we do to His benefit. If an artist creates beautiful things, why shouldn’t he and a rich man collaborate to make something for the glory of God, something that will lift people’s hearts to God?

I heard a story about a small village with very poor people in Latin America. The priest thought to sell the church to help the people, bit they told him that the church was the only beautiful thing they saw all week, and it would be wrong to deny them this.

No one asked or said the things should be sold. I said that I know, as a Jesuit, the Pope might be uncomfortable with it that is why he is not living in the Vatican.

Actually, it is a common criticism of the Church that the Vatican does not sell all those things and give the money to the poor.

It doesn’t matter what the Pope wants or says, non-Catholics aren’t going to listen to him about this anyway.

That’s for sure

 

[ringil]

Enlightenment/Anglo Protestant Principles need to be jettisoned.

They are so believed by some around CAF. This devotion to a free-market system and rugged individualism seems to me as quite extreme among some American Catholics.

Odd when one considers that the ideas some are so married to are Protestant in origin.

 

[TEPO]

They are so believed by some around CAF. This devotion to a free-market system and rugged individualism seems to me as quite extreme among some American Catholics.

Odd when one considers that the ideas some are so married to are Protestant in origin.

You say they’re Protestant. I say they’re Anglo.

…I don’t believe it’s sinful to have an Anglo state of mind.

 

[Path_Finder]

Analysis is coming in,

But let’s not forget Pope Leo XIII’s condemnation of Socialism: ewtn.com/library/ENCYC/L13APOST.HTM

I would also hope anyone who wishes to be consistent should not praise this and when Pope Francis speaks on other subjects, it falls on deaf ears.

 

[MJE]

They are so believed by some around CAF. This devotion to a free-market system and rugged individualism seems to me as quite extreme among some American Catholics.

Odd when one considers that the ideas some are so married to are Protestant in origin.

A great book Defending the Free Market: The Moral Case for a Free Economy by Father Sirico.
Socialism has been discredited. The totalitarian states of the twentieth century have collapsed. And we beneficiaries of the globalized world economy are grateful that we enjoy plentiful food, clothing, shelter—and cheap electronics. But can any moral person really be for capitalism? Consumerism is an appalling spectacle, with Americans glutting themselves on all kinds of excess, while people in the developing world starve. The rich seem to be hogging far more than their share of the world’s resources. Free markets may be efficient, but are they fair? Aren’t there some things—life-saving health care, for example—that we can’t afford to leave to the vicissitudes of the market? Now, in Defending the Free Market: The Moral Case for a Free Economy, Father Robert Sirico—a Catholic priest, former leftist associate of Jane Fonda, and now a longtime champion of the free market—answers all these objections.

Father Sirico is founder & President of the Acton Institute.

The Acton Institute for the Study of Religion and Liberty is named after the great English historian, Lord John Acton (1834-1902). He is best known for his famous remark: “Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.” Inspired by his work on the relation between liberty and morality, the Acton Institute seeks to articulate a vision of society that is both free and virtuous, the end of which is human flourishing. To clarify this relationship, the Institute holds seminars and publishes various books, monographs, periodicals, and articles.
The mission of the Acton Institute is to promote a free, virtuous, and humane society. This direction recognizes the benefits of a limited government, but also the beneficent consequences of a free market. It embraces an objective framework of moral values, but also recognizes and appreciates the subjective nature of economic value. It views justice as a duty of all to give the one his due but, more importantly, as an individual obligation to serve the common good and not just his own needs and wants. In order to promote a more profound understanding of the coming together of faith and liberty, the Institute involves members of religious, business, and academic spheres in its various seminars, publications, and academic activities. It is our hope that by demonstrating the compatibility of faith, liberty, and free economic activity, religious leaders and entrepreneurs can contribute by helping to shape a society that is secure, free, and virtuous.
acton.org/

 

[Vouthon]

Analysis is coming in,

But let’s not forget Pope Leo XIII’s condemnation of Socialism: ewtn.com/library/ENCYC/L13APOST.HTM

And lets not forget St. Pope John Paul II’s condemnation of both capitalism and socialism:

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_30121987_sollicitudo-rei-socialis_en.html

"…The tension between the two blocs which began at the end of the Second World War has dominated the whole of the subsequent forty years. Sometimes it has taken the form of “cold war,” sometimes of “wars by proxy,” through the manipulation of local conflicts, and sometimes it has kept people’s minds in suspense and anguish by the threat of an open and total war…

For as we know the tension between East and West is not in itself an opposition between two different levels of development but rather between two concepts of the development of individuals and peoples both concepts being imperfect and in need of radical correction. This opposition is transferred to the developing countries themselves, and thus helps to widen the gap already existing on the economic level between North and South and which results from the distance between the two worlds: the more developed one and the less developed one.

This is one of the reasons why the Church’s social doctrine adopts a critical attitude towards both liberal capitalism and Marxist collectivism. For from the point of view of development the question naturally arises: in what way and to what extent are these two systems capable of changes and updatings such as to favor or promote a true and integral development of individuals and peoples in modern society? In fact, these changes and updatings are urgent and essential for the cause of a development common to all…

Each of the two blocs harbors in its own way a tendency towards imperialism, as it is usually called, or towards forms of new- colonialism: an easy temptation to which they frequently succumb, as history, including recent history, teaches…

The Church’s social doctrine is not a “third way” between liberal capitalism and Marxist collectivism, nor even a possible alternative to other solutions less radically opposed to one another: rather, it constitutes a category of its own. Nor is it an ideology, but rather the accurate formulation of the results of a careful reflection on the complex realities of human existence, in society and in the international order, in the light of faith and of the Church’s tradition…

The teaching and spreading of her social doctrine are part of the Church’s evangelizing mission. And since it is a doctrine aimed at guiding people’s behavior, it consequently gives rise to a “commitment to justice,” according to each individual’s role, vocation and circumstances…

It is necessary to state once more the characteristic principle of Christian social doctrine: the goods of this world are originally meant for all.78 The right to private property is valid and necessary, but it does not nullify the value of this principle.** Private property, in fact, is under a "social mortgage,“79 which means that it has an intrinsically social function, based upon and justified precisely by the principle of the universal destination of goods**…”

- St. Pope John Paul II, Sollicitudo Rei Socialis (1987)

 

[Path_Finder]

And lets not forget St. Pope John Paul II’s condemnation of both capitalism and socialism:

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_30121987_sollicitudo-rei-socialis_en.html

Thank you for this.

 

[Path_Finder]

So I heard, in the great depression, you might have Swedish immigrants setting up soup kitchens for the Swedish down and out. Charity was like this, it is probably more efficient.

I’m still analyzing what the Pope said, maybe I should turn on EWTN.

 

[Vouthon]

Thank you for this.

You are welcome Here is another:

“…Catholic social doctrine is not a surrogate for capitalism. In fact, although decisively condemning “socialism,” the church, since Leo XIII’s Rerum Novarum, has always distanced itself from capitalistic ideology, holding it responsible for grave social injustices (cf. Rerum Novarum, 2). In Quadragesimo Anno Pius XI, for his part, used clear and strong words to stigmatize the international imperialism of money (Quadragesimo Anno, 109). This line is also confirmed in the more recent magisterium, and I myself, after the historical failure of communism, did not hesitate to raise serious doubts on the validity of capitalism, if by this expression one means not simply the “market economy” but “a system in which freedom in the economic sector is not circumscribed within a strong juridical framework which places it at the service of human freedom in its totality” (Centesimus Annus, 42)…”

***- St. Pope John Paul II (“What Social Teaching Is and Is Not,” in Origins, Vol. 23, No. 15), September 1993 ***

And from Pope Pius XII:

“…And what of a regime in which capitalism is dominant? Does it offer a prospect of real welfare for woman? We have no need here to describe the economic and social consequences of this system. You know its characteristic signs and you yourselves labor under the burden it imposes: the excessive crowding of the population into the cities; the ever-growing and all-invading power of big business; the difficult and precarious condition of other industries, especially the crafts and even more especially agriculture; the disquieting spread of unemployment…”

***- Venerable Pius XII (QUESTA GRANDE VOSTRA ADUNATA), 1945 ***

 

[pnewton]

The love of money is surely the root of many evil. Here we have the Holy Father teaching in harmony with all that have gone before him, most recently, Pope Benedict in Caritas in Veritate, for which he too was criticized. The world will always hat people of faith. Even in the Church, those who are in love with the world will resent anything that might cost, an amazing thing since Jesus told the rich man to go sell all he had. Let us remember, that if we wish to get into the kingdom, just how hard it is for a rich man to get into the kingdom. The more wealth one has, the more critical it is for him to detach himself from it.

Likewise, those with little must never give in to the covetness that is whipped up by those by votes with the money of others. From the AP quote:

“the legitimate redistribution of economic benefits by the state, as well as indispensable cooperation between the private sector and civil society.”

He is not calling for socialism. That is a lie, or more to the point, false rhetoric. He is calling on us to do more to help the poor. You know, the “Jesus” thing.

 

[pnewton]

Where do you get Liberation theology at the “point of a gun” from this?
.

Misreading the media is not limited to the left or the right.

 

[Melvin]

“A contribution to this equitable development will also be made both by international activity aimed at the integral human development of all the world’s peoples and by the legitimate redistribution of economic benefits by the State, as well as indispensable cooperation between the private sector and civil society.” - Pope Francis.

I’m sorry. I don’t believe in Communism, or Socialism. I do not believe that it is just for the State to take from one person, by force or threat of force, in order to give what one earns to another.

Charity is the purview of the individual. If I give to another from that which I have earned or received, from love of Christ for that person, that is charity. If the State forcefully takes what I have worked to earn or have received from me, against my will, and gives it to another, that is robbery, stealing, abuse of power.

It is no less so if it has the blessing of the Holy Father.

 

[pnewton]

“A contribution to this equitable development will also be made both by international activity aimed at the integral human development of all the world’s peoples and by the legitimate redistribution of economic benefits by the State, as well as indispensable cooperation between the private sector and civil society.” - Pope Francis.

I’m sorry. I don’t believe in Communism, or Socialism.

No one asks you to.

I do not believe that it is just for the State to take from one person, by force or threat of force, in order to give what one earns to another… If the State forcefully takes what I have worked to earn or have received from me, against my will, and gives it to another, that is robbery, stealing, abuse of power.

It is no less so if it has the blessing of the Holy Father.

Paying taxes is a doctrine of the Church. The Catholic Church has never taught that collecting taxes was “stealing”. Even Jesus paid taxes. I think it good, before we start labeling sin based on our own politics, to look at what the Church teaches on the Seventh Commandment.

2401 For the sake of the common good, it requires respect for the universal destination of goods and respect for the right to private property.

2402 The goods of creation are destined for the whole human race. However, the earth is divided up among men to assure the security of their lives, endangered by poverty and threatened by violence. The appropriation of property is legitimate for guaranteeing the freedom and dignity of persons and for helping each of them to meet his basic needs and the needs of those in his charge. It should allow for a natural solidarity to develop between men.

2403 The right to private property, acquired or received in a just way, does not do away with the original gift of the earth to the whole of mankind. The universal destination of goods remains primordial, even if the promotion of the common good requires respect for the right to private property and its exercise.

2406 Political authority has the right and duty to regulate the legitimate exercise of the right to ownership for the sake of the common good

[2240](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/2240.htm’) Submission to authority and co-responsibility for the common good make it morally obligatory to pay taxes, to exercise the right to vote, and to defend one’s country:

Pay to all of them their dues, taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due.45 [Christians] reside in their own nations, but as resident aliens. They participate in all things as citizens and endure all things as foreigners. . . . They obey the established laws and their way of life surpasses the laws. . . . So noble is the position to which God has assigned them that they are not allowed to desert it.46

 

[ProVobis]

Charity is the purview of the individual. If I give to another from that which I have earned or received, from love of Christ for that person, that is charity. If the State forcefully takes what I have worked to earn or have received from me, against my will, and gives it to another, that is robbery, stealing, abuse of power.

We (and all other countries) wouldn’t be in so much debt if this were true for all cases. Mathematically it works out the recipients (and that includes large corporations) get far more than the money that’s being “robbed” from everyone. And there lies the moral hazard and the Fed knows it.