Pope demands 'legitimate redistribution' of wealth

[ringil]

I would also hope anyone who wishes to be consistent should not praise this and when Pope Francis speaks on other subjects, it falls on deaf ears.

Yes, that would be important. I believe that is a great temptation on CAF.

Or to dismiss comments by Francis’ as twisted by the media, lost in translation, or “not really saying anything new”.

The Pope has something to say regarding abortion, the sanctity and indissolubility of marriage, euthanasia, AND AND AND the need to give heed to the cries of the poor, and to address the disparity of wealth between the rich and poor.

The Pope does NOT endorse a hyper-capitalist anglo-protestant system, but neither does he endorse a complete socialistic system.

 

[ringil]

A great book Defending the Free Market: The Moral Case for a Free Economy by Father Sirico.
Socialism has been discredited. The totalitarian states of the twentieth century have collapsed. And we beneficiaries of the globalized world economy are grateful that we enjoy plentiful food, clothing, shelter—and cheap electronics. But can any moral person really be for capitalism? Consumerism is an appalling spectacle, with Americans glutting themselves on all kinds of excess, while people in the developing world starve. The rich seem to be hogging far more than their share of the world’s resources. Free markets may be efficient, but are they fair? Aren’t there some things—life-saving health care, for example—that we can’t afford to leave to the vicissitudes of the market? Now, in Defending the Free Market: The Moral Case for a Free Economy, Father Robert Sirico—a Catholic priest, former leftist associate of Jane Fonda, and now a longtime champion of the free market—answers all these objections.

Father Sirico is founder & President of the Acton Institute.

The Acton Institute for the Study of Religion and Liberty is named after the great English historian, Lord John Acton (1834-1902). He is best known for his famous remark: “Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.” Inspired by his work on the relation between liberty and morality, the Acton Institute seeks to articulate a vision of society that is both free and virtuous, the end of which is human flourishing. To clarify this relationship, the Institute holds seminars and publishes various books, monographs, periodicals, and articles.
The mission of the Acton Institute is to promote a free, virtuous, and humane society. This direction recognizes the benefits of a limited government, but also the beneficent consequences of a free market. It embraces an objective framework of moral values, but also recognizes and appreciates the subjective nature of economic value. It views justice as a duty of all to give the one his due but, more importantly, as an individual obligation to serve the common good and not just his own needs and wants. In order to promote a more profound understanding of the coming together of faith and liberty, the Institute involves members of religious, business, and academic spheres in its various seminars, publications, and academic activities. It is our hope that by demonstrating the compatibility of faith, liberty, and free economic activity, religious leaders and entrepreneurs can contribute by helping to shape a society that is secure, free, and virtuous.
acton.org/

I don’t do Father Sirico.

 

[ProVobis]

Why do you think it needs to be in Latin?

When one can say more with 3-word Latin tweets, what more needs to be done?

 

[Timothysis]

I’m sorry. I don’t believe in Communism, or Socialism. I do not believe that it is just for the State to take from one person, by force or threat of force, in order to give what one earns to another.

Have you ever noticed how many taxes come out of your check each week and the taxes you pay whenever you shop or buy gas? Its called being a part of society. Pope Francis did not advocate communism or socialism and nowhere did he demand that government take from one group to give to another. He was reminding those in power that part of the duty of the state is to care for all of its people, especially the poor and those without a voice. The Church has said the same thing for centuries; why does this ruffle so many feathers?

 

[shelby_sun]

Actually, he is very popular among non-Catholics at the moment. He won “Person of the Year” for 2013 remember and has a glowing reception in British daily rag newspapers such as the “Daily Mail”. He has their ear right now and thus is in a very influential position.

Indeed he is becoming day by day the moral conscience of this age even for many non-Catholics.

And you’d be amazed how receptive non-Catholics can be to Catholic Social Teaching in general. Two years ago, it was making a buzz in the politics of the UK - a non-Catholic majority country:

bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-20154986

As Jesus said, “The Harvest is great but the labourers are few”.

There are millions of hearts out their waiting to be changed.

Do you think that they think that he is coming around to their way of thinking on some issues, like BC< gays, and annulments. Certainly they are not coming around to Cstholic thinking.

 

[Good_Tidings]

Yes, that would be important. I believe that is a great temptation on CAF.

Or to dismiss comments by Francis’ as twisted by the media, lost in translation, or “not really saying anything new”.

The Pope has something to say regarding abortion, the sanctity and indissolubility of marriage, euthanasia, AND AND AND the need to give heed to the cries of the poor, and to address the disparity of wealth between the rich and poor.

The Pope does NOT endorse a hyper-capitalist anglo-protestant system, but neither does he endorse a complete socialistic system.

I agree. I think the pope knows exactly what he is saying. We are so used to “spin” in this country that it appears natural to “spin” every utterance to what agrees with one’s philosophy. Let’s give the pope a little more credit for saying what he means. The Holy Spirit is his co-pilot after all.

 

[seaton2005]

hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/E/EU_REL_VATICAN_UN?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2014-05-09-06-31-28

Pope JP II called Liberation Theology a heresy. Now, Pope Francis is getting dangerously close to endorsing this position. This is the first time I am truly troubled by what Pope Francis has said.

I love this Pope. Finally shaking things up a bit to get us back to what Catholics stand for.

 

[Good_Tidings]

Do you think that they think that he is coming around to their way of thinking on some issues, like BC< gays, and annulments. Certainly they are not coming around to Cstholic thinking.

I think the Holy Father has the Holy Spirit guiding him and in his humility and non judgmental way of speaking, he is appealing to the goodness in non Catholics . These people may be taking a look at Catholicism. Just my opinion, of course.

 

[pnewton]

Or to dismiss comments by Francis’ as twisted by the media, lost in translation, or “not really saying anything new”. .

Sorry, but that is what happens. I will give you a specific. The initial article used the word “demand”. The strongest word the Holy Father actually used was “urged” and that was not in conjunction with the actual sentence. That sentence, which AP calls a demand is:

A contribution to this equitable development will also be made both by international activity aimed at the integral human development of all the world’s peoples and by the legitimate redistribution of economic benefits by the State, as well as indispensable cooperation between the private sector and civil society.

Also, this is not a new thing. If you read the whole statement the Holy Father, he references previous statements. No, what Pope Francis says should not be dismissed, but it is not new, according to the statement itself, and it is very much overstated in the media for a desired effect.

One final point, the Holy Fathers said:

Today, in concrete terms, an awareness of the dignity of each of our brothers and sisters whose life is sacred and inviolable from conception to natural death must lead us to share with complete freedom the goods which God’s providence has placed in our hands, material goods but also intellectual and spiritual ones, and to give back generously and lavishly whatever we may have earlier unjustly refused to others.

Now where in the article is the mention of this sharing of intellectual or spiritual goods? I think the accusation of spin is fairly provable.

 

[ganoaitaly]

In my estimation this is utterly indefensible, but I would really like to know if anyone can explain it.

Pope Francis said a more equal form of economic progress can be had through “the legitimate redistribution of economic benefits by the state, as well as indispensable cooperation between the private sector and civil society.”

Associated Press Article

I’m not troubled by his belief that we should help others who are less fortunate, but **I am extremely troubled that he believes the coercive power of the state should be used to compel that giving. I don’t believe that is what Jesus taught. I don’t know where Jesus ever said “if a rich man won’t give voluntarily, go forth and take it from him.” **

More importantly, and less tongue-in-cheek, we know that the only power the state has is force. It enforces its rules and laws with the threat of force / the barrel of a gun / imprisonment.

So, what Francis has said is, essentially, that the state should use force to compel the redistribution of wealth. I am beyond shocked and my faith is rattled.

And that’s setting aside, for the moment, that Pope John Paul II spent his life fighting against communism because he clearly believed that the corrupt immorality of that system was deplorable.

Help.

 

[ganoaitaly]

I love this Pope. Finally shaking things up a bit to get us back to what Catholics stand for.

Does this mean that Catholics believe that if we cannot convince you that our way or ideals are correct that the state should intervene to force them upon you? Because it looks like that’s what he said…

 

[pnewton]

And that’s setting aside, for the moment, that Pope John Paul II spent his life fighting against communism because he clearly believed that the corrupt immorality of that system was deplorable.

Help.

Taxation is not communism. We have paid taxes for centuries, some of which has been used to help those in poverty. We have had an estate tax for 150 years in the US.

 

[ganoaitaly]

Taxation is not communism. We have paid taxes for centuries, some of which has been used to help those in poverty. We have had an estate tax for 150 years in the US.

take from the people, by force if necessary, and give to the poor is a FAR CRY from “Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s.” Let’s at least be intellectually honest; it’s not the same thing.

I am looking for someone to address his comment that redistribution should be done “by the state.” It’s as though he didn’t consider how the state forces people to do things. Jesus never said to use force or coercion.

 

[pnewton]

take from the people, by force if necessary, and give to the poor is a FAR CRY from “Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s.” Let’s at least be intellectually honest; it’s not the same thing.

It is the same thing. Taxes are money taken legitimately by force, is it not?
If it is not the same, then what is the difference. I think if you think about it, the only reason people are upset by what was said is that they see a difference where none exists.

So what is the difference between taxes used for economic assistance and legitimate redistribution of economic benefits by the state?

Money? yes
Forced? yes, as in legally required
the richer pay more? yes
the poor get more in benefits? yes

 

[ganoaitaly]

It is the same thing. Taxes are money taken legitimately by force, is it not?
If it is not the same, then what is the difference. I think if you think about it, the only reason people are upset by what was said is that they see a difference where none exists.

So what is the difference between taxes used for economic assistance and legitimate redistribution of economic benefits by the state?

Money? yes
Forced? yes, as in legally required
the richer pay more? yes
the poor get more in benefits? yes

We are supposed to give to government money or resources sufficient for it to operate. Those things belong to caesar. If he meant what he said, that he believes that our faith requires us to TAKE FROM OTHERS who are UNWILLING to give, I don’t see how that is reconcilable. He is lending Christ’s legitimacy to murder/killing, coercion, and imprisonment by the state to enforce his belief that the state can and should compel giving. That’s just got to be wrong.

We have paid taxes for centuries, some of which has been used to help those in poverty. We have had an estate tax for 150 years in the US.

Appeal to tradition (also known as argumentum ad antiquitatem,[1] appeal to antiquity, or appeal to common practice) **is a common fallacy **in which a thesis is deemed correct on the basis that it correlates with some past or present tradition.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_tradition

Also, there is a difference between man/government making a value or policy determination about to what purpose government’s power should be put. It is quite another for the Pope, leader of the Church, and Christ’s representative on Earth to claim that Jesus requires us to use force to take wealth from others.

 

[pnewton]

We are supposed to give to government money or resources sufficient for it to operate…

I see. Well, that is one political perspective and an understandable one. Realize though that what Pope Francis said is nothing new. The Catholic Church has supported the role of government in assisting the needy, based on the doctrine of universal destination of goods. At the same time, the right to private property is also Catholic doctrine. Thus, the Church opposes both socialism, in all forms, and capitalism, in its most extreme forms.

 

[ganoaitaly]

on the doctrine of universal destination of goods. At the same time, the right to private property is also Catholic doctrine.

is there church doctrine/teaching/gospel that supports the notion that force may properly be used to accomplish a goal (e.g., redistribution, feeding the hungry, etc)? This is my problem with what he said. I appreciate your efforts in engaging with the subject.

 

[Thorns]

I think the Holy Father has the Holy Spirit guiding him and in his humility and non judgmental way of speaking, he is appealing to the goodness in non Catholics . These people may be taking a look at Catholicism. Just my opinion, of course.

While his way of speaking may be humble, it isnt assertive or decisive. All thats happening is that believers are becoming confused, while nonbelievers simply feel justified in their ways by his vague words with no thought or compulsion for conversion.

 

[TEPO]

So what’s the plan again?

…we all seem to know what the Pope doesn’t mean -so what does he mean? Anyone?

 

[pnewton]

is there church doctrine/teaching/gospel that supports the notion that force may properly be used to accomplish a goal (e.g., redistribution, feeding the hungry, etc)? This is my problem with what he said. I appreciate your efforts in engaging with the subject.

Then consider this, the Holy Father did not use the word “force”. He also did not use the word “demand” as per the AP article.

It would better to read the full text, in context:

en.radiovaticana.va/news/2014/05/09/pope_to_un:_resist_the_economy_of_exclusion,_serve_the_poor/en1-797707

Note that the emphasis is *not *on redistribution of wealth. That was one phrase. The emphasis is on helping the poor and hungry in the world. It is not aimed at the United States and refers to economic, intellectual and spiritual sharing.

Consider the poorest countries with a wealth of resources. Should the warlords, dictators or aristocracy become conspicuously rich in a country that also has starvation and abject poverty? Let us think past America. We are doing pretty good on this, though we probably could do better (better, not necessarily more). Elsewhere though, people die while the leaders build resorts for the elite.