Pope Didn't Know about Holocaust denial

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The Vatican says that the Pope was not aware of the Holocaust denial of Bishop Williamson when he rescinded his excommunication along with 3 other bishops. Now the bishops must accept the teachings of Vatican II for the excommunication to be lifted and bishop Williamson must recant his Holocaust denial. One cannot help but wonder at the sad state of the Curia especiallly given the reaction to the Holy Father’s 2006 statement on Islam which led to riots and deaths. The Pope may be a fine theologian but he seems to not have the management or political skills nor the advisors necessary for the Vatican to address the problems of the contemporary world. This is most sad indeed.

nytimes.com/2009/02/05/world/europe/05pope.html?_r=1&ref=world
 
The Pope isn’t a politician, he’s a pastor of souls. If St. Peter had been preoccupied with PR, the faith wouldn’t have gotten off the ground. Gaining human respect is a vain ambition. Doing what’s right for the future of the Church is more than worth a couple of week’s bad coverage in the media.
 
The Vatican says that the Pope was not aware of the Holocaust denial of Bishop Williamson when he rescinded his excommunication along with 3 other bishops. Now the bishops must accept the teachings of Vatican II for the excommunication to be lifted and bishop Williamson must recant his Holocaust denial. One cannot help but wonder at the sad state of the Curia especiallly given the reaction to the Holy Father’s 2006 statement on Islam which led to riots and deaths. The Pope may be a fine theologian but he seems to not have the management or political skills nor the advisors necessary for the Vatican to address the problems of the contemporary world. This is most sad indeed.

nytimes.com/2009/02/05/world/europe/05pope.html?_r=1&ref=world
I think this will force scrutiny on any further steps Rome takes re: SPPX. Rome has to insist on full acceptance of Vatican 2 by the SPPX. No partial acceptance and none of Bp. Fellay’s implications that certain elements of Vatican 2 the society could not accept as comonly understood.

I think the SPPX will not do this - or a good share of them. IMO this incident may have killed what probably was the last chance for reconciliation. Only time will tell.
 
I think this will force scrutiny on any further steps Rome takes re: SPPX. Rome has to insist on full acceptance of Vatican 2 by the SPPX. No partial acceptance and none of Bp. Fellay’s implications that certain elements of Vatican 2 the society could not accept as comonly understood.

I think the SPPX will not do this - or a good share of them. IMO this incident may have killed what probably was the last chance for reconciliation. Only time will tell.
The Vatican already reconciled the Institute of the Good Shepherd, which is permitted (as all Catholics are) to criticize certain aspects of the Second Vatican Council.

The Council itself said that, because of its pastoral nature, only those things are binding which it explicitly declares to be binding (see the appendix to Lumen Gentium). It’s absurd to try to turn into a “superdogma” what was so modestly proposed.

The SSPX absolutely will not be expected to accept everything which is proposed in the documents of Vatican II. You’ll be very disappointed if you expect otherwise.
 
I think this will force scrutiny on any further steps Rome takes re: SPPX. Rome has to insist on full acceptance of Vatican 2 by the SPPX. No partial acceptance and none of Bp. Fellay’s implications that certain elements of Vatican 2 the society could not accept as comonly understood.

I think the SPPX will not do this - or a good share of them. IMO this incident may have killed what probably was the last chance for reconciliation. Only time will tell.
Let us hope not. On those elements where the SSPX is correct, they can do a great service to the Church.

Vatican II is not a dogmatic council, and it is strange that there are those who want to make it dogmatic.

Furthermore, the Holy Spirit only guarantees that a Church Council will be free from error. It doesn’t guarantee that a Church council will be perfect, or come about at a historically fortuitous time. It seems that there are those who want to pretend that Vatican II is perfect in every way, like Sacred Scripture. Such a stance is ludicrous on its face.

Let us pray and hope for unity. The fact that Msgr. Williamson has put his foot in it we hope and pray is not enough to derail what could be a very important reconciliation. (I condemn his words and find them very offensive… as do all thoughtful Traditional Catholics… however there is no reason for this one sad episode to destroy Tradition in the Church).
 
The Vatican says that the Pope was not aware of the Holocaust denial of Bishop Williamson when he rescinded his excommunication along with 3 other bishops. Now the bishops must accept the teachings of Vatican II for the excommunication to be lifted and bishop Williamson must recant his Holocaust denial. One cannot help but wonder at the sad state of the Curia especiallly given the reaction to the Holy Father’s 2006 statement on Islam which led to riots and deaths. The Pope may be a fine theologian but he seems to not have the management or political skills nor the advisors necessary for the Vatican to address the problems of the contemporary world. This is most sad indeed.

nytimes.com/2009/02/05/world/europe/05pope.html?_r=1&ref=world
I hear this opinion often… however I would ask you to consider Regensberg more carefully.

I have muslim family members (VERY close relatives) and I know that Regensberg offended them. But, if you remember, they were offended by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger already. His opposition to Turkey joining the E.U. really got up their nose.

When the Pope made the Regensberg speech, he raised VERY important points that, in my opinion, needed to be raised. The fact that there was rioting and some deaths afterwards is not the Pope’s fault at all. I say this as one who has the blood of muslims running in my veins… It was the Muslims who rioted and reacted violently to the Pope’s honest communication who were at fault.

Furthermore, what has been the long term fruit of Benedict XVI’s lecture? Consider: the first REAL muslim Catholic dialog of significance grew out of the Regensberg lecture. The successful trip to Turkey which included REAL dialog on REAL issues was a direct result of Regensberg.

Speaking as someone who has relatives who still live in that area, I can tell you, Regensberg was VERY important. He got them thinking. They may not like what he has to say, but that is okay isn’t it?

And…

As much as I condemn Msgr. Williamson’s words and actions (and I do so vociferously) I would ask you to consider an argument most seem to be ignoring:

The Pope, by lifting the excommunications on the SSPX, has gained credibility and influence with the SSPX he never had before. When before when Williamson uttered his lunacies was he ever silenced? Now, he is silenced. By bringing the SSPX back into the fold, and by dealing with the subsequent flap, Benedict XVI has done more to combat anti-semitism than most Jewish advocates combined.

Just food for thought.

It is the current educated Catholic group think that the Pope made mistakes at Regensberg and by lifting the excommunications. I think the data are not there to support either conclusion… yet.
 
The Vatican says that the Pope was not aware of the Holocaust denial of Bishop Williamson when he rescinded his excommunication along with 3 other bishops.
And did anyone else in the Vatican have any acquaintance with the outspoken opinions of Bishop Williamson?
 
And did anyone else in the Vatican have any acquaintance with the outspoken opinions of Bishop Williamson?
These are two different issues and the lifting of the excommunication should not have to do with his personal opinions. Since the excommunication has been lifted now he has to deal with the fact one of his Bishops has an issue that has to be resolved. This is a timing issue.
 
These are two different issues and the lifting of the excommunication should not have to do with his personal opinions. Since the excommunication has been lifted now he has to deal with the fact one of his Bishops has an issue that has to be resolved. This is a timing issue.
I thought that pruidence was a theological virtue? Is it prudent for a Catholic bishop to visit as a guest in a country and then publicly flaunt and violate the laws of that country which is a prosecutable offense leading to jail time? Also, my understanding is that anti-semitism is a sin. Should a bishop be quoting approvingly from the Protocols of the Elders of Zion? A lot of Jews were killed in WWII, and where is the sympathy expressed for what happened to them?
 
I thought that pruidence was a theological virtue? Is it prudent for a Catholic bishop to visit as a guest in a country and then publicly flaunt and violate the laws of that country which is a prosecutable offense leading to jail time? Also, my understanding is that anti-semitism is a sin. Should a bishop be quoting approvingly from the Protocols of the Elders of Zion? A lot of Jews were killed in WWII, and where is the sympathy expressed for what happened to them?
He lifted a blanket excommunication because of the reason they were excommunicated. The Bishop was not excommunicated for his holocaust views. Now that he is part of the Church the Church again has a right to discipline or even ex-communicate him once again. This time for a different reason.
 
I hear this opinion often… however I would ask you to consider Regensberg more carefully.

I have muslim family members (VERY close relatives) and I know that Regensberg offended them. But, if you remember, they were offended by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger already. His opposition to Turkey joining the E.U. really got up their nose.

When the Pope made the Regensberg speech, he raised VERY important points that, in my opinion, needed to be raised. The fact that there was rioting and some deaths afterwards is not the Pope’s fault at all. I say this as one who has the blood of muslims running in my veins… It was the Muslims who rioted and reacted violently to the Pope’s honest communication who were at fault.

Furthermore, what has been the long term fruit of Benedict XVI’s lecture? Consider: the first REAL muslim Catholic dialog of significance grew out of the Regensberg lecture. The successful trip to Turkey which included REAL dialog on REAL issues was a direct result of Regensberg.

Speaking as someone who has relatives who still live in that area, I can tell you, Regensberg was VERY important. He got them thinking. They may not like what he has to say, but that is okay isn’t it?

And…

As much as I condemn Msgr. Williamson’s words and actions (and I do so vociferously) I would ask you to consider an argument most seem to be ignoring:

The Pope, by lifting the excommunications on the SSPX, has gained credibility and influence with the SSPX he never had before. When before when Williamson uttered his lunacies was he ever silenced? Now, he is silenced. By bringing the SSPX back into the fold, and by dealing with the subsequent flap, Benedict XVI has done more to combat anti-semitism than most Jewish advocates combined.

Just food for thought.

It is the current educated Catholic group think that the Pope made mistakes at Regensberg and by lifting the excommunications. I think the data are not there to support either conclusion… yet.
Thank you for your thoughtful and nuanced remarks. I agree that dialogue is essential and getting those of other persuasions to think is vital. I was especially impressed with the Pope’s dialogue with Jurgen Habermas which really disarmed a lot of European intellectuals. Still, one must be troubled that the Pope (and/or the Curia) were surprised at the reaction that Regensberg instigated. Likewise, the Pope should have been aware of the Williamson’s remarks. Benedict XVI is primarily a thinker and feels most at home among kindred souls. He has great difficulties when he communicates with those who do not share his proclivities. And, I do not think he has a deep grasp of the political. In other words, he seems to lack phronesis. Being surprised at the reaction to Regensberg and having then to apologize does not advance his cause but strengthens the radical Islamists. With regard to the lifting of the excommunications, I appreciated your remarks. It may have been good and desirable to bring the bishops back into the fold. Your point here is well taken. But, it cannot be good that he did not know about Williamson’s remarks and had to apply conditions to the lifting. As with Regensberg, the reaction of Jews and others should have been anticipated by the Pope and the Curia. Sadly, it was not. Something is seriously amiss here.
 
And, I do not think he has a deep grasp of the political… But, it cannot be good that he did not know about Williamson’s remarks and had to apply conditions to the lifting.
He is first and foremost the shepherd of the Catholic Church. This entails spending more time with God than CNN. He spends more time in theology than politics. He probably does not monitor everything that happens on television. His dealings with the SSPX has been focused, as it should be, on the theological differences, stemming from Vatican II and the understanding of that council. Of course he did not watch the interview. He probably also missed the last episode of Survivor.

On the other hand, he has aides and associates that help him be informed of such things. In regards to this, all I can say is you have to be there to know how easily some piece of critical information can fall between the cracks. I will not even assume this was done intentionally, it could happen so easily.

Personally, I find it refreshing to here some one who does not pretend to be an expert at everything, but rather simply acknowledges a short-coming and moves forward from there.
 
He is first and foremost the shepherd of the Catholic Church. This entails spending more time with God than CNN. He spends more time in theology than politics. He probably does not monitor everything that happens on television. His dealings with the SSPX has been focused, as it should be, on the theological differences, stemming from Vatican II and the understanding of that council. Of course he did not watch the interview. He probably also missed the last episode of Survivor.

On the other hand, he has aides and associates that help him be informed of such things. In regards to this, all I can say is you have to be there to know how easily some piece of critical information can fall between the cracks. I will not even assume this was done intentionally, it could happen so easily.

Personally, I find it refreshing to here some one who does not pretend to be an expert at everything, but rather simply acknowledges a short-coming and moves forward from there.
I agree that one doesn’t become a priest or bishop to pursue an administrative career or secular affairs. I watch executive behavior and politics for a living. If the papacy is to be engaged with the world, it must have modern adminstrative structures and trained personal. There are few studies of the politics and organization of the Vatican but one of the best is Father Thomas Reese’s (a Ph.D. in Poli Sci) book Inside the Vatican. There have been reforms (mostly incremental) inside the Vatican but it is very possible that more comprehensive changes are needed to respond to the needs and reality of the 21st century. I am not saying that Vatican diplomats and other staff are not competent. Indeed they are often world class. I am NOT talking about matters of faith or morals but of administration, bureacracy and management. In short the Curia may be unable to reform itself, not an unusual thing for entrenched bureaucracies. Things seem to “fall through the cracks” too often. (it happens in the White House, Congress and most institutions as well) I am coming to suspect that Benedict (a brilliant thinker and pious man) has neither the temperment or skill to deal with such matters. He would not be the first in this regard. Make no mistake, I love the Church and greatly respect the intellect of Benedict XVI. But I fear that the Vatican administrative practices and organization may not be up to the task. Canon law specifies that the laity have the right and duty to share their knowledge and concerns with the Church. (Canon 212, §3. According to the knowledge, competence, and prestige which they possess, they have the right and even at times the duty to manifest to the sacred pastors their opinion on matters which pertain to the good of the Church and to make their opinion known to the rest of the Christian faithful, without prejudice to the integrity of faith and morals, with reverence toward their pastors, and attentive to common advantage and the dignity of persons.) Whether one is talking about the failure to provide essential info on events to the Pontiff or not vetting documents well, or dealing with matters of media relations or handling crises such as the pederasty scandal, the Church often does a poor job. Again, I am NOT speaking of matters of faith and morals but of management and organization. Canon 212/3 does not, of course, oblige the Church to follow the advice of the laity, but it does seem to obligate the Church to respectfully listen.
 
I agree that one doesn’t become a priest or bishop to pursue an administrative career or secular affairs. I watch executive behavior and politics for a living. If the papacy is to be engaged with the world, it must have modern adminstrative structures and trained personal. There are few studies of the politics and organization of the Vatican but one of the best is Father Thomas Reese’s (a Ph.D. in Poli Sci) book Inside the Vatican. There have been reforms (mostly incremental) inside the Vatican but it is very possible that more comprehensive changes are needed to respond to the needs and reality of the 21st century. I am not saying that Vatican diplomats and other staff are not competent. Indeed they are often world class. I am NOT talking about matters of faith or morals but of administration, bureacracy and management. In short the Curia may be unable to reform itself, not an unusual thing for entrenched bureaucracies. Things seem to “fall through the cracks” too often. (it happens in the White House, Congress and most institutions as well) I am coming to suspect that Benedict (a brilliant thinker and pious man) has neither the temperment or skill to deal with such matters. He would not be the first in this regard. Make no mistake, I love the Church and greatly respect the intellect of Benedict XVI. But I fear that the Vatican administrative practices and organization may not be up to the task. Canon law specifies that the laity have the right and duty to share their knowledge and concerns with the Church. (Canon 212, §3. According to the knowledge, competence, and prestige which they possess, they have the right and even at times the duty to manifest to the sacred pastors their opinion on matters which pertain to the good of the Church and to make their opinion known to the rest of the Christian faithful, without prejudice to the integrity of faith and morals, with reverence toward their pastors, and attentive to common advantage and the dignity of persons.) Whether one is talking about the failure to provide essential info on events to the Pontiff or not vetting documents well, or dealing with matters of media relations or handling crises such as the pederasty scandal, the Church often does a poor job. Again, I am NOT speaking of matters of faith and morals but of management and organization. Canon 212/3 does not, of course, oblige the Church to follow the advice of the laity, but it does seem to obligate the Church to respectfully listen.
I’m going to agree with one of your points and speak to some other things that I see happening around this issue.

I and many other well educated Catholics recognize that Benedict XVI is a scholar, one of the best in the world. He is definitely not a diplomat, statesman, and he lacks experience in the public arena. That would have been John Paul II.

Therefore, given that the electoral college elected a scholar to the Chair of Peter, there are going to be administrative flaws. There are also going to be moments like the Muslim issue, where the Pope will speak as a scholar and others will look at him as if he had two heads. No human being can be all things to all men, not even a pope.

This is also a young papacy. Not that Benedict is young, but that his time in office has been short. Hopefully he will remain in good health and around a few more years and he will become more savvy at this job. I’m speaking about the political side of it. He is very good at the theological end. As to his pastoral competency, only time will tell. Pastoral decisions and policies show their fruit in time, rarely immediately.

You also correctly quoted from canon law that the laity has the right to express its concern to the the Church and it should be heard. What some people confuse is that hearing and agreeing are not the same thing. The Church can turn a deaf ear to the laity. Canon law does not oblige the pope in any way. It obliges everyone beneath him. The Pope is not bound by canon law. He can abolish the entire thing as long as he preserves the faith.

In other words, all the lay people in the world can give him their opinion and he’s the only prelate in the Church who can turn a deaf ear without being disrespectful. It is not disrespectful to be deaf, when you have the authority to do so.

How much does the Pope know and how much does he not want to know? Who knows? That’s the power that comes with the office.

One thing that American Catholics seem to do quite often is confuse the Pope with the President. We hire the President. We don’t hire the Pope, even though we pay his salary.

It’s almost nonsensical for the laity to expect that the Pope will listen to all their concerns, demands, hopes, expectations, desires, beliefs, opinions, and so forth. I often chuckle at the naivete that I find on CA when it comes to the Holy Father. People often post as if they really have a voice in a system that is so theocratic.

The Pope said he didn’t know. End of story. The Pope says that Williamson must be silenced and he must distance himself from his position. End of story. The laity’s opinion and $1.50 will get us a ride on the local metro bus.

JR 🙂
 
I agree that one doesn’t become a priest or bishop to pursue an administrative career or secular affairs. I watch executive behavior and politics for a living. If the papacy is to be engaged with the world, it must have modern adminstrative structures and trained personal. There are few studies of the politics and organization of the Vatican but one of the best is Father Thomas Reese’s (a Ph.D. in Poli Sci) book Inside the Vatican… Again, I am NOT speaking of matters of faith and morals but of management and organization. Canon 212/3 does not, of course, oblige the Church to follow the advice of the laity, but it does seem to obligate the Church to respectfully listen.
You may be right and have a valid point. I do not know how deeply the Vatican should concern itself with such things, instead of accepting the PR mistakes and concentrating on less mundane matters. The only thing I would add is to remember that when your a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.
 
I certainly believe that Pope Benedict didn’t know about Williamson’s ideas. However it bothers me a lot that Cardinal Hoyos didn’t think to warn the pope about it. Surely he must have known, his fulltime job involves dealing with SSPX on a day to day basis.
 
I certainly believe that Pope Benedict didn’t know about Williamson’s ideas. However it bothers me a lot that Cardinal Hoyos didn’t think to warn the pope about it. Surely he must have known, his fulltime job involves dealing with SSPX on a day to day basis.
I agree.

There seems to be something broken within the Vatican’s PR department, or the Pope isn’t going through them as he should.

The Pope’s usually don’t let anything go public, before going through a review process.

This is what, the third or fourth time, the Pope’s statements make it out to the world, only to force the Vatican’s PR department to jump into damage control and explain what the Pope actually meant or intended.

Jim
 
The following is from the NY Times 2/16/09 (link below)

"The Vatican expert George Weigel, in a recent essay in First Things, an American religion journal, criticized the Vatican for its “chaos, confusion and incompetence.”

In Vienna on Monday, 10 Austrian bishops convened a crisis session to deal with the fallout. Erich Leitenberger, a spokesman for the Vienna Archdiocese, said church officials around the country had been inundated with letters, phone calls and e-mail messages, including from parishioners saying they were leaving the church.

Austria, a majority-Catholic country with a complicated Nazi past, had been reeling from the pope’s revocation of the excommunication of four schismatic bishops from the ultraconservative Society of St. Pius X, including Bishop Richard Williamson, who has denied the existence of the Nazi gas chambers as well as the scale and genocidal intent of the Holocaust."

This is exactly the point I was making. The Vatican needs to do a better job on these matters and this means some rather drastic reforms.
nytimes.com/2009/02/17/world/europe/17pope.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=vatican&st=cse
 
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