Pope emphasizes: 'you cannot love God outside of the Church' [CWN]

[JimR-OCDS]

You wrote, “Don’t believe that Baptism is a guarantee for salvation. It is necessary for salvation, but faith must be part of it.”

Why would you say that it, Baptism, “is necessary for salvation”?

I would say that there are plenty of people who have never been baptized and I would say that plenty of them have never even heard of Baptism so there are probably plenty who wouldn’t even have a chance at “Baptism of disire”, would you say that none of these have a “chance of salvation”?

Could be that the “one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins” has already been received by Jesus from John for humanity, something to “ponder”, could be why Jesus was so insistent on being baptized by John.

Jesus answered, “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit. John 3:5

The Commissioning of the Eleven. [But] later, as the eleven were at table, he appeared to them and rebuked them for their unbelief and hardness of heart because they had not believed those who saw him after he had been raised. He said to them, “Go into the whole world and proclaim the gospel to every creature. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned. Mark 16:14-16

Of course these verses are speaking to those who come to know Jesus Christ.

CCC 1281
“Those who die for the faith, those who are catechumens, and all those who, without knowing of the Church but acting under the inspiration of grace, seek God sincerely and strive to fulfill his will, are saved even if they have not been baptized”

Jim

 

[ProVobis]

Again, Baptism is a Sacrament of Faith.

There is more.

Faith and Baptism

1253 Baptism is the sacrament of faith.54 But faith needs the community of believers. It is only within the faith of the Church that each of the faithful can believe. The faith required for Baptism is not a perfect and mature faith, but a beginning that is called to develop. The catechumen or the godparent is asked: “What do you ask of God’s Church?” The response is: “Faith!”

1254 For all the baptized, children or adults, faith must grow after Baptism. For this reason the Church celebrates each year at the Easter Vigil the renewal of baptismal promises. Preparation for Baptism leads only to the threshold of new life. Baptism is the source of that new life in Christ from which the entire Christian life springs forth.

1255 For the grace of Baptism to unfold, the parents’ help is important. So too is the role of the godfather and godmother, who must be firm believers, able and ready to help the newly baptized - child or adult on the road of Christian life.55 Their task is a truly ecclesial function (officium).56 The whole ecclesial community bears some responsibility for the development and safeguarding of the grace given at Baptism.

V. WHO CAN BAPTIZE?

1256 The ordinary ministers of Baptism are the bishop and priest and, in the Latin Church, also the deacon.57 In case of necessity, anyone, even a non-baptized person, with the required intention, can baptize58 , by using the Trinitarian baptismal formula. The intention required is to will to do what the Church does when she baptizes. The Church finds the reason for this possibility in the universal saving will of God and the necessity of Baptism for salvation.59

VI. THE NECESSITY OF BAPTISM

1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.60 He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them.61 Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.62 The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are “reborn of water and the Spirit.” God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.

1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.

1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.

1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."63 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,"64 allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p2s2c1a1.htm

 

[Tom_Baum]

Of course these verses are speaking to those who come to know Jesus Christ.

Jim

Condemned does not necessarily mean what some of us think that it means.

Condemned does not necessarily mean what so many seem to want it to mean.

Jesus said lots of things and according to the bible, He said many things that are not even written down, could be that God’s Plan really is something for ALL to be, ultimately, thankful for.

Could be that God really does care for His Creation, ALL of it, not just some as some seem to think and some of the some seem to want it to be.

 

[estesbob]

Condemned does not necessarily mean what some of us think that it means.

Condemned does not necessarily mean what so many seem to want it to mean.

Jesus said lots of things and according to the bible, He said many things that are not even written down, could be that God’s Plan really is something for ALL to be, ultimately, thankful for.

Could be that God really does care for His Creation, ALL of it, not just some as some seem to think and some of the some seem to want it to be.

Of course God cares for all his creation. That is why he had his Son found the Church. Because of this man always access to the truth.

In our desire to see all saved we must be careful that we do not fall into universalism. If all people are saved them there is no reason for a Church , no such thing as sin , and no reason for people to live their lives other than for themselves.

 

[glendab]

Hello Jim.

ProVobis

They had to promise to raise you in the faith.

Parents, in fact all Baptized faithful, renew their Baptismal promises each year at Easter.

There is only one Baptism, but Baptism is only one of three Sacraments in the rite if initiation for Catholics. Confirmation and reception of the Holy Eucharist, are also part of becoming a Christian.

The formula for a Baptism can be correct, yet, no faith was present and reception of the other sacraments is neglected or treated as a social construct as Baptism was.

Valid in the technical sense, but meaningless as a Sacrament as far as Faith is concerned for the individual who does not have faith.

Again, the Sacrament was treated as a social construct more than a Sacrament by many in the Church.

Don’t believe that Baptism is a guarantee for salvation. It is necessary for salvation, but faith must be part of it.

Jim

The level of faith present in the witnesses, the person receiving the Sacrament and even the Priest administering the Sacrament have nothing, I repeat nothing to do with the validity of the Sacrament. Faith is a supernatural gift from God. It can be nurtured and nourished, but that is as far as an education can get you. There must be a turning of the heart towards God at some point in the life of everyone who is Baptized. Since Baptism is a Sacrament, it contains within in it something of the Presence of God. He is the One Who leaves His mark upon the soul receiving the Sacrament and the actual actuation of that grace may come early in life or later. Sometimes it doesn’t come at all. When that occurs, faith begins to grow and can be further assisted in this growth by the other Sacraments. Faith however isn’t necessary for Baptism. If that were true, there would be no infant Baptism and those adults who were awaiting Baptism, would have a harder time of it. This surely isn’t what you believe is it? Would you withhold the waters of Baptism from someone who you thought wasn’t sincere or worthy or what?

As for your comment that the Sacrament is meaningless, God doesn’t think so, He Himself received Baptism and there was no Original Sin, personal sin or anything else you might consider an impediment to the grace of the Sacrament. Next time you pray the Rosary and come to the Mystery of the Baptism of Jesus in the Jordan by St. John, ask God to show your heart the meaning behind the Sacrament. It isn’t meaningless. It contains God in Itself, therefore disparaging It as a Sacrament could be seen as a serious sin. That is why the Church in her wisdom steps lightly when evaluating any of the Sacraments.

Glenda

 

[Tom_Baum]

Of course God cares for all his creation. That is why he had his Son found the Church. Because of this man always access to the truth.

In our desire to see all saved we must be careful that we do not fall into universalism. If all people are saved them there is no reason for a Church , no such thing as sin , and no reason for people to live their lives other than for themselves.

You wrote, “In our desire to see all saved we must be careful that we do not fall into universalism. If all people are saved them there is no reason for a Church , no such thing as sin , and no reason for people to live their lives other than for themselves”

As far as "If all people are saved them there is no reason for a Church ", maybe that is EXACTLY why there not only is a Church but is the “reason” for the Church so that, ultimately, ALL are saved.

The Church is referred to as “the Body of Christ”, isn’t it?

Do you think that God was/is an active Participant in Salvation history or not?

Do you think that God called us to be active participants or merely passive receivers of what God-Incarnate did on the cross?

As far as “no such thing as sin”, didn’t Jesus supposedly take ALL of EVERYONE’S SINS upon Himself on the cross?

God “knew” that not all would come around, so to speak, therefore God came up with a Plan that we share in the “SALVATION OF THE WHOLE WORLD” and by that I mean in the “cross work” of salvation.

Jesus died for us, He extended the invitation of “Come follow Me”, could be that God is asking us to do something that not many think that we are able to do but as Jesus said, “With God ALL things are possible”.

And as far as “no reason for people to live their lives other than for themselves”, could be that God is asking us to go farther than to just pick up our “get out of hell” card and to do something for others rather than just to do it so the we can go to the “good place”.

In other words, Jesus died for others and He is asking us to accept what He did and to do the same for others.

 

[irishpatrick]

And the above Catechism reference is infants of Christian parents.

Again, Baptism is a Sacrament of Faith.

Jim

You keep repeating that statement, so maybe it is time for you explain, with precision, what you are saying with: “Baptism is a Sacrament of Faith.”

Certainly we all know that babies cannot hold a mature faith to ascent to Baptism, so perhaps some of us are not understanding what you are saying?

 

[estesbob]

You wrote, “In our desire to see all saved we must be careful that we do not fall into universalism. If all people are saved them there is no reason for a Church , no such thing as sin , and no reason for people to live their lives other than for themselves”

As far as "If all people are saved them there is no reason for a Church ", maybe that is EXACTLY why there not only is a Church but is the “reason” for the Church so that, ultimately, ALL are saved.

The Church is referred to as “the Body of Christ”, isn’t it?

Do you think that God was/is an active Participant in Salvation history or not?

Do you think that God called us to be active participants or merely passive receivers of what God-Incarnate did on the cross?

As far as “no such thing as sin”, didn’t Jesus supposedly take ALL of EVERYONE’S SINS upon Himself on the cross?

God “knew” that not all would come around, so to speak, therefore God came up with a Plan that we share in the “SALVATION OF THE WHOLE WORLD” and by that I mean in the “cross work” of salvation.

Jesus died for us, He extended the invitation of “Come follow Me”, could be that God is asking us to do something that not many think that we are able to do but as Jesus said, “With God ALL things are possible”.

And as far as “no reason for people to live their lives other than for themselves”, could be that God is asking us to go farther than to just pick up our “get out of hell” card and to do something for others rather than just to do it so the we can go to the “good place”.

In other words, Jesus died for others and He is asking us to accept what He did and to do the same for others.

The Church is the Holy Catholic Church, headed by Pope Francis, the Vicar of Christ. Christ died for all but that does not mean all are saved.

 

[shelby_sun]

The Church is the Holy Catholic Church, headed by Pope Francis, the Vicar of Christ. Christ died for all but that does not mean all are saved.

What about the Jews, God’s people? I never learned they were not going to be saved and they are not apart of the RCC.

 

[estesbob]

What about the Jews, God’s people? I never learned they were not going to be saved and they are not apart of the RCC.

See post 33

 

[Even_So]

I would say that there are plenty of people who have never been baptized and I would say that plenty of them have never even heard of Baptism so there are probably plenty who wouldn’t even have a chance at “Baptism of disire”, would you say that none of these have a “chance of salvation”?

Could be that the “one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins” has already been received by Jesus from John for humanity, something to “ponder”, could be why Jesus was so insistent on being baptized by John.

So how does all this compare with Protestant baptisms? I presume that they also need to be baptized to be Christians.

I do not believe that, but it is offered at most churches

So how do I know if my godparents had faith? What if my baptism had been invalid and I didn’t know it? If I have faith but doubt that my baptism was valid should I ask to be rebaptized? I doubt if the Church will do that.

The Church has a prescribed formula even for Protestants and as long as it’s followed, it is valid, even if the administrator is an atheist. AFAIK, a witness is desirable but not required to be valid.

If you’re church won’t do it again, go to one that will. Why wouldn’t a church want to baptize someone again who feels they weren’t spiritually right the first time?

Seriously? An atheist? C’mon, man!

 

[Even_So]

There is only One church. The Holy Catholic Apostolic Church founded by Jesus Christ and headed by Pope Francis, the vicar of Christ.

From the Cathecism:

*846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body: *
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

So again, i ain’t gettin in if i don’t join a Catholic church, meaning i am ignorant. Was it you, estesbob, who asked me where the Holy Trinity was supported in Scripture? I’ll address that in the other thread when i get there. But if you think our conscience dictates where we go, i can think of so many times people talking the talk, but not walking the walk. I thought we had to accept Jesus. But as long as they think they are okay…

 

[estesbob]

So again, i ain’t gettin in if i don’t join a Catholic church, meaning i am ignorant. Was it you, estesbob, who asked me where the Holy Trinity was supported in Scripture? I’ll address that in the other thread when i get there. But if you think our conscience dictates where we go, i can think of so many times people talking the talk, but not walking the walk. I thought we had to accept Jesus. But as long as they think they are okay…

When you accept Jesus you accept the Church.They are one and the same.

 

[chero23]

When you accept Jesus you accept the Church.They are one and the same.

I agree, bc Jesus bride is the Church, the one for whom he died for.

 

[ProVobis]

If you’re church won’t do it again, go to one that will. Why wouldn’t a church want to baptize someone again who feels they weren’t spiritually right the first time?

The Church keeps records of who is baptized. They don’t keep records of their spiritual state of the godparents, I don’t believe.

Furthermore, I would be suspect of any church who would want to rebaptize me.

 

[shelby_sun]

See post 33

That make it sound like the Jews who were very loyal followers of God and still are just didn’t know better. I think they deserve more respect for their faithfulness in their God.

 

[estesbob]

That make it sound like the Jews who were very loyal followers of God and still are just didn’t know better. I think they deserve more respect for their faithfulness in their God.

Stating the Truth is not a “lack of respect”

 

[Tom_Baum]

Of course God cares for all his creation. That is why he had his Son found the Church. Because of this man always access to the truth.

In our desire to see all saved we must be careful that we do not fall into universalism. If all people are saved them there is no reason for a Church , no such thing as sin , and no reason for people to live their lives other than for themselves.

As far as “no reason for people to live their lives other than for themselves”.

Maybe they would live their lives for a God Who Is truly worth living for rather than a god who, one is terrified of doing something, anything, wrong and going to be tortured for ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever… .

To be honest, I can NOT see how anyone could even make the statement “and no reason for people to live their lives other than for themselves”, if they truly thought/believed that God became One of us for ALL of us and did this by taking ALL of EVERYONE’S sins and everything associated with those sins upon HImself on the cross.

Wouldn’t you or anyone else think that one could and would be happy that ALL, not just themself (maybe) and a few others, would ultimately be with God and come to know that what God said about Himself is true and that is, "My Ways are not your ways and My Thoughts are not your thoughts?

Hasn’t anyone else ever given any thought to the foreverness of many people’s conception of the foreverness of hell?

I, for one, do NOT believe that Jesus took EVERYONE’S SINS UPON HIMSELF in vain, He did it as part of God’s Plan which God has had since before creation and God’s Will will come to Fruition.

 

[shelby_sun]

Stating the Truth is not a “lack of respect”

What you believe is “The Truth”. What they believe is “The Truth” to them, and there truth came from God first. So Christians needs to be very careful in how they judge they Jews who have been true followers God from the beginning.

 

[estesbob]

What you believe is “The Truth”. What they believe is “The Truth” to them, and there truth came from God first. So Christians needs to be very careful in how they judge they Jews who have been true followers God from the beginning.

So we should not preach the Gospel for fear of hurting someone’s feelings?