Pope Francis – married men could be ordained priests if world's bishops agree on it

[Della]

People have been teaching at private schools for decades, and private schools don’t pay teachers enough to raise a family on. We can’t assume that the priest’s wife won’t be working, and we shouldn’t expect the family’s lifestyle to conform to the unrealistically wealthy standard of many modern cities and suburbs.

Teachers are not the ministerial priesthood, either. And I think it unfair to go into a married priesthood arrangement with the onus on the wife and family to simply “make do” or get work outside the parish. The celibate priesthood functions very well with the proper support and encouragement for vocations. There’s no need to change it because if it is changed the problems that will coming flooding in behind it will be overwhelming for everyone involved. Our Lord understood the dynamics of family life, as did St. Paul, and both said that celibacy is the best way to go because a man with a family has obligations to his family while a man who is celibate only has to worry about serving God, the Church, and his community, which is plenty for any one man to be responsible for.

 

[Lapey]

Teachers are not the ministerial priesthood, either. And I think it unfair to go into a married priesthood arrangement with the onus on the wife and family to simply “make do” or get work outside the parish. The celibate priesthood functions very well with the proper support and encouragement for vocations. There’s no need to change it because if it is changed the problems that will coming flooding in behind it will be overwhelming for everyone involved. Our Lord understood the dynamics of family life, as did St. Paul, and both said that celibacy is the best way to go because a man with a family has obligations to his family while a man who is celibate only has to worry about serving God, the Church, and his community, which is plenty for any one man to be responsible for.

Pure speculation on everything except that Jesus and Paul did understand, and that’s why married and celibate men were ordained from the beginning and for many centuries. Paul said let those be celibate if they can live that way, if not let them marry.

Remember this, the sky is not and will not fall if married men are ordained; in most places this will not affect anything as there truly is no priest shortage, at least not in places like mention earlier where a Mass can only be celebrated a few times a year because of lack of priests. Look into the numbers. It was mentioned earlier that in one large diocese there are 800,000 Catholics and 23 priests. My pastor has 1400 families in his responsibility, at a four member average that is only 5600 souls. the above mentioned diocese would have a ratio of about 35,000 per priest.

Yes, this makes perfect sense. This should already be available in these type situations. I would venture to say in my area, Louisiana, there would be very few married men accepted into the priesthood because there is simply no true need for it. The local seminary college is over its capacity now, my son is one of the seminarians.

No, I’m sorry but there would not be any noticeable change in our neck of teh woods; definitely not the chicken little scenario you describe.

 

[Della]

Pure speculation on everything except that Jesus and Paul did understand, and that’s why married and celibate men were ordained from the beginning and for many centuries. Paul said let those be celibate if they can live that way, if not let them marry.

Remember this, the sky is not and will not fall if married men are ordained; in most places this will not affect anything as there truly is no priest shortage, at least not in places like mention earlier where a Mass can only be celebrated a few times a year because of lack of priests. Look into the numbers. It was mentioned earlier that in one large diocese there are 800,000 Catholics and 23 priests. My pastor has 1400 families in his responsibility, at a four member average that is only 5600 souls. the above mentioned diocese would have a ratio of about 35,000 per priest.

Yes, this makes perfect sense. This should already be available in these type situations. I would venture to say in my area, Louisiana, there would be very few married men accepted into the priesthood because there is simply no true need for it. The local seminary college is over its capacity now, my son is one of the seminarians.

No, I’m sorry but there would not be any noticeable change in our neck of teh woods; definitely not the chicken little scenario you describe.

I’m very happy that you have such an abundance of vocations in your area, but then it is Louisiana in which there is a large Catholic population. In our colder climes here in the North things are a bit chillier in both temps and vocations because we have a ratio of 1/2 Lutherans and 1/2 Catholics, besides which religious ardor is not on the rise. There are a lot of Catholics in our area who believe that a married priesthood is coming soon and so vocations are limited and people don’t encourage their boys to consider the priesthood. And I have to say with all due respect that you are merely speculating, as well, based on your own experience–a good one, thankfully. But not every area is so blessed.

I have seen the real life effects of ministry on families when I was brought up Episcopalian and then taken to the Assemblies of God as a young teen. You wouldn’t believe the strain on ministers with families–it’s hard on everyone. The kids grow up resenting that their dad or mom put God and their church first and the wives become frazzled, as well. Why inflict all that on families when celibacy removes any such problems? Again, Our Lord knew what was best and what should be allowed, as did St. Paul. I think the Church has been very wise to ask that our priests be celibate for the sake of everyone involved.

 

[Lapey]

I’m very happy that you have such an abundance of vocations in your area, but then it is Louisiana in which there is a large Catholic population. In our colder climes here in the North things are a bit chillier in both temps and vocations because we have a ratio of 1/2 Lutherans and 1/2 Catholics, besides which religious ardor is not on the rise. There are a lot of Catholics in our area who believe that a married priesthood is coming soon and so vocations are limited and people don’t encourage their boys to consider the priesthood. And I have to say with all due respect that you are merely speculating, as well, based on your own experience–a good one, thankfully. But not every area is so blessed.

I have seen the real life effects of ministry on families when I was brought up Episcopalian and then taken to the Assemblies of God as a young teen. You wouldn’t believe the strain on ministers with families–it’s hard on everyone. The kids grow up resenting that their dad or mom put God and their church first and the wives become frazzled, as well. Why inflict all that on families when celibacy removes any such problems? Again, Our Lord knew what was best and what should be allowed, as did St. Paul. I think the Church has been very wise to ask that our priests be celibate for the sake of everyone involved.

So in your experience you know better than me about the affects of full time ministry on a family of married clergy…

PS. You are not reading the entirety of Jesus’ or Paul’s words. In the beginning there were both celibate and married clergy. Please read 1 Timothy 3:2,

“Therefore, a bishop must be irreproachable, married only once, temperate, self-controlled, decent, hospitable, able to teach” NAB

 

[Della]

So in your experience you know better than me about the affects of full time ministry on a family of married clergy…

Not better, but pretty close considering I attended a Bible college that trained men and women for full time ministry. I saw how their lives turned out and the strains it put on marriages and children. At 65 I’ve seen a lot in my time and this was something I saw firsthand.

PS. You are not reading the entirety of Jesus’ or Paul’s words. In the beginning there were both celibate and married clergy. Please read 1 Timothy 3:2,

“Therefore, a bishop must be irreproachable, married only once, temperate, self-controlled, decent, hospitable, able to teach” NAB

I have certainly read the entirety of Jesus’ and Paul’s words. :tiphat: The admonition in 1Tim. is not an absolute command for all bishops down through the ages, as you know, but was needed at the time because the Church was a new entity in a pagan culture. I also know that Jesus gave the Church the authority to decide matters of discipline and that this is a prudential and not a doctrinal matter. I repeat, in her wisdom, the Church has opted for a celibate priesthood–one that I believe has stood the test of time and cultural interaction.

With a B. A. in religious education I may not have as much education/training as you do, and I wouldn’t claim that I do, but I do know enough to realize what is doable/practical and what is not as wise to do. The better option is to choice what is best not what is just all right, but again, since it’s a prudential matter whatever the Church decides to do, I’m fine with it. I’m merely citing the difficulties that cannot be ignored in a rush to ordain married men no matter the consequences to all involved.

 

[Lapey]

Not better, but pretty close considering I attended a Bible college that trained men and women for full time ministry. I saw how their lives turned out and the strains it put on marriages and children. At 65 I’ve seen a lot in my time and this was something I saw firsthand.

I have certainly read the entirety of Jesus’ and Paul’s words. :tiphat: The admonition in 1Tim. is not an absolute command for all bishops down through the ages, as you know, but was needed at the time because the Church was a new entity in a pagan culture. I also know that Jesus gave the Church the authority to decide matters of discipline and that this is a prudential and not a doctrinal matter. I repeat, in her wisdom, the Church has opted for a celibate priesthood–one that I believe has stood the test of time and cultural interaction.

With a B. A. in religious education I may not have as much education/training as you do, and I wouldn’t claim that I do, but I do know enough to realize what is doable/practical and what is not as wise to do. The better option is to choice what is best not what is just all right, but again, since it’s a prudential matter whatever the Church decides to do, I’m fine with it. I’m merely citing the difficulties that cannot be ignored in a rush to ordain married men no matter the consequences to all involved.

You are crying wolf again, there will be no rush to do anything; the Church works in centuries. As far as 1st Timothy, I never said it was an absolute. You said it was not in Scripture, I showed you it most certainly is.

The Church does and always has had a section of the clergy which was not required to be celibate. The Church always has and always will have both celibacy and married clerics. I think we can agree on this. Jesus Himself ordained married men and celibate men.

In my life time, I am 48, we will probably not see this come to pass; but it is completely possible. If this were to happen, please place you trust and confidence that the magisterium will do what is best and it will be in the lead of the Holy Spirit. Then it will be our job to accept the truth as led by Mother Church and go on with life and see the sky will not fall.

 

[Della]

You are crying wolf again, there will be no rush to do anything; the Church works in centuries.

Not a rush by the Church, but by those who are hot and heavy for it. Sorry for the confusion.

As far as 1st Timothy, I never said it was an absolute. You said it was not in Scripture, I showed you it most certainly is.

If you reread my posts I never claimed this was not in Scripture. I think you got that impression, no doubt my fault for not explaining my concerns well enough. And that was not my point, in any case.

The Church does and always has had a section of the clergy which was not required to be celibate. The Church always has and always will have both celibacy and married clerics. I think we can agree on this. Jesus Himself ordained married men and celibate men.

Yes, and there are provisions for married men to be ordained priests. I am well aware of this and, again, never argued otherwise. :tiphat:

In my life time, I am 48, we will probably not see this come to pass; but it is completely possible. If this were to happen, please place you trust and confidence that the magisterium will do what is best and it will be in the lead of the Holy Spirit. Then it will be our job to accept the truth as led by Mother Church and go on with life and see the sky will not fall.

I think you may be scanning my posts and not actually reading them? I wrote, quite clearly in my last post, that if the Church decided to have a married priesthood as the norm I’d be “fine with it.” And I never claimed the sky would fall, either. Again, and for the last time, pointing out the difficulties is not the same thing as denying/ignoring anything. Wisdom demands that whatever the Church decides she have all the facts in hand, which I’m sure she will do if/when the issue arises in any serious manner.

Now, I am done here as I have said all I care to about the topic.

 

[Lapey]

Not a rush by the Church, but by those who are hot and heavy for it. Sorry for the confusion.

If you reread my posts I never claimed this was not in Scripture. I think you got that impression, no doubt my fault for not explaining my concerns well enough. And that was not my point, in any case.

Yes, and there are provisions for married men to be ordained priests. I am well aware of this and, again, never argued otherwise. :tiphat:

I think you may be scanning my posts and not actually reading them? I wrote, quite clearly in my last post, that if the Church decided to have a married priesthood as the norm I’d be “fine with it.” And I never claimed the sky would fall, either. Again, and for the last time, pointing out the difficulties is not the same thing as denying/ignoring anything. Wisdom demands that whatever the Church decides she have all the facts in hand, which I’m sure she will do if/when the issue arises in any serious manner.

Now, I am done here as I have said all I care to about the topic.

Sorry if I took you out of context or didn’t read your posts fully; I spend time here and post on many threads in several of these sections of CAF. I stand guilty as charged about not reading everything. I am usually quite good at picking up the just of a post by skimming it, which is what I typically do unless it is short.

Thanks Ms. Della and have a great day!

 

[Oren]

Are they going to get second jobs?
Will they have many children or practice contraception so that everyone pretty much knows it? My priest has six kids and he works a farm. He sure as heck isn’t doing daily mass. Orthodox don’t have daily Mass, so is that going to go by the way side for Catholics? Sexual relations are supposed to be forbidden the night before receiving the Eucharist. Is the priest going to abstain from sex for daily mass? no? does anyone even remember this canon in the Catholic Church? Will it be enforced or explained away? Maybe it already has been as I have never heard a Catholic refer to it. hmmm…
Will the bishops still move the priests to many different parishes over a relatively short period of time with the family in tow?
What happens when the priest’s wife leaves him? Is he going to get an annulment? Is he going to get married again? That is forbidden too…that opens up a whole can of worms. Priests aren’t allowed to marry period, even if his wife dies.

 

[HappyCatholic01]

Well, it may be time to throw off the influence of Western Protestantism and return to our roots.

Not that I disagree, but you plan on being alive in another 500 years?

 

[HappyCatholic01]

I don’t think much would change.

In my every-day experience, when people casually suggest we should have more married priests, the undercurrent seems to be that celibacy is a bad or unnatural thing, and that celibacy should be the exception to the rule. I don’t think that’s the best grounds for a wide-spread change in policy. But, I’m just a laywoman.

I agree.

I also would have to ask “why change anything?”

You don’t just make changes for changes’ sakes. If there is evidence it would help the Church in some way, or if there is evidence the current dictates are theologically incorrect, then we have a reason for discussion.

I wouldn’t even discuss the subject with someone without getting accurate answers to the question “why?”

 

[Prodigal_Son]

I agree.

I also would have to ask “why change anything?”

You don’t just make changes for changes’ sakes. If there is evidence it would help the Church in some way, or if there is evidence the current dictates are theologically incorrect, then we have a reason for discussion.

I wouldn’t even discuss the subject with someone without getting accurate answers to the question “why?”

Is it your impression that Catholics are adequately preaching the gospel in the here and now?

 

[saintjohnxxiii]

I love the idea of married men being ordained Priests. Regarding the logistics of it at the diocesan level doesn’t have to be as bad as some make it out to be.

For instance you work in stages. The first stage is that all Permanent Deacons could be eligible for Ordination. Currently you have parishes where there are permanent deacons and could add more because of it. Think of a parish where there is 1 Priest and maybe 3 permanent deacons. Those 3 permanent deacons currently have their own house/apartment and are either retired and collecting pension or are working full time and spending some of their free time at the Church.

If you ordain them they don’t have to move to the rectory for many reasons. Its not necessary, there may not be the space and it would disrupt their family home. What could happen is that the parish priest could set up a “work schedule” for those PD to celebrate Mass, hear confessions, etc. Maybe one of the PD would like to volunteer for weddings. It would ease the workload for the parish priest and make them a more integral part of the parish community. Again let me reiterate that they wouldn’t need to move to the Church because they already have a place to live and its most likely not far from the Church. Bishops would have to understand that they couldn’t transfer them to remote locations no matter the need for married men who are going to be Priests.

One aspect that I am curious about is the education part of it. It would be ridiculous for married men to have to go spend 4-8 years in a seminary to get the same education as the parish priest, but there would have to be some type of education formation.

 

[HappyCatholic01]

I love the idea of married men being ordained Priests. Regarding the logistics of it at the diocesan level doesn’t have to be as bad as some make it out to be.

For instance you work in stages. The first stage is that all Permanent Deacons could be eligible for Ordination. Currently you have parishes where there are permanent deacons and could add more because of it. Think of a parish where there is 1 Priest and maybe 3 permanent deacons. Those 3 permanent deacons currently have their own house/apartment and are either retired and collecting pension or are working full time and spending some of their free time at the Church.

If you ordain them they don’t have to move to the rectory for many reasons. Its not necessary, there may not be the space and it would disrupt their family home. What could happen is that the parish priest could set up a “work schedule” for those PD to celebrate Mass, hear confessions, etc. Maybe one of the PD would like to volunteer for weddings. It would ease the workload for the parish priest and make them a more integral part of the parish community. Again let me reiterate that they wouldn’t need to move to the Church because they already have a place to live and its most likely not far from the Church. Bishops would have to understand that they couldn’t transfer them to remote locations no matter the need for married men who are going to be Priests.

One aspect that I am curious about is the education part of it. It would be ridiculous for married men to have to go spend 4-8 years in a seminary to get the same education as the parish priest, but there would have to be some type of education formation.

Why would you even propose any of that without answering the question “why? For what purpose?”

The Church isn’t going to do anything that breaks with tradition unless there are tangible, verifiable reasons why they should act.

As of yet, I’ve seen none.

If it is about numbers, there is no evidence that the Priest shortage is due to the lack of marriage. We have a nun shortage as well, and no one is clamoring to see the nuns married off and pregnant. Why is that?

 

[HappyCatholic01]

Is it your impression that Catholics are adequately preaching the gospel in the here and now?

They haven’t been for the last 50-60 years or so.

Not sure what allowing Priests to marry has to do with countering lay Catholic’s ability to preach the gospel.

I suspect there is a presumption that married priests will see an end to the Priest shortage. Other objections aside, what evidence is there of this? Without that evidence, the Church will never even consider this as a remote possibility. Are there thousands of men on record as saying they would have been a Priest had they been able to get married.

If so, guess what - they either weren’t being called by God anyway, or simply ignored His call because it wasn’t on their terms. They don’t sound like ideal candidates as servants of Christ, frankly.

 

[saintjohnxxiii]

Why would you even propose any of that without answering the question “why? For what purpose?”

The Church isn’t going to do anything that breaks with tradition unless there are tangible, verifiable reasons why they should act.

As of yet, I’ve seen none.

If it is about numbers, there is no evidence that the Priest shortage is due to the lack of marriage. We have a nun shortage as well, and no one is clamoring to see the nuns married off and pregnant. Why is that?

Funny you should mention tradition. Last time I checked it was part of our tradition for the first 1,000 years that Priests, Bishops, Cardinals and God help us Popes were married and even had kids so the argument that married men becoming priests is breaking tradition is not true.

 

[HappyCatholic01]

splitting hairs is a silly way to debate. Fine.

Recent tradition. Everyone but you apparently knew what was meant.

Still doesn’t address the main point I made, which is what would be the impetus. Hood organizations do not simply do things just to do something.

Posted from Catholic.com App for Android

 

[HappyCatholic01]

Good organizations…

The Church is not in the hood.

Posted from Catholic.com App for Android

 

[twf]

A lot of people are suggesting we start ordaining married deacons to the priesthood. This may sound like a great idea, but please keep in mind that permanent deacons is largely and American and Italian thing…as far as I know, they are not widespread in most of the Latin Catholic Church. Latin America has very few. Western Canada has very few. As far as I know these are not widespread in most of Europe, Africa, or Asia either (but I could be wrong on that front). When I was living in the Archdiocese of Vancouver, we had 400 000 faithful and a couple hundred priests, but only ONE permanent deacon. A formation program for the diaconate was only instituted for the first time in the Archdiocese’s history a couple years ago. American Catholics may not understand this, but just introducing married permanent deacons is still a LONG ways away in much of the Catholic world. Baby steps please.

I remember several years ago I attended the ordination of a transitional deacon in the Diocese of Nelson in BC, Canada. Nelson did not and still does not have a formation program for the permanent diaconate - and like most Western Canadian dioceses, does not have any permanent deacons (to my knowledge) despite the shortage of priests (many of whom look after more than one parish). Either before or after the ordination ceremony (can’t remember which), an elderly lady asked me “but what exactly is a deacon?”. As I said, any sort of married clergy would be a HUGE novelty in most of the Catholic world. The US dioceses are already way ahead of the norm.

As an aside, I think married permanent deacons would be a great blessing throughout Canada and Latin America where the priest shortage has been felt.

 

[adawgj]

I wouldn’t mind if married men became diocesan priests. Though it seems like a very difficult time. Seminary is 7 years and you don’t really go home too much. That could affect relationships with the spouse and children. I’d say they could become priests if they don’t have children or they have grown up.

I don’t think married men should become religious priests. Especially since most religious orders take vows of celibacy.